3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

[UnitedWithChrist]

"Wherefore, I will not be careless always to remind you concerning these things, though, having known them, and having been established in the present truth"

What's your point?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

We agree here, from what I can tell.

And Jesus had said HE/JESUS chose the 12.

That's a good point....he wasn't one of the sheep God gave him who are eternally secure.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

What's your point here? Do you claim this Scripture doesn't refer to the election of the believers of this church?

I'm saying the Thessalonians [believers] are included in "the Church which is His body" (of which I believe this verse speaks: 2Cor2:13 "chosen you firstfruit") [Eph1:20-23 WHEN ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
"Wherefore, I will not be careless always to remind you concerning these things, though, having known them, and having been established in the present truth"

What's your point?

It was simply something I wished to add to a previous post, but was "timed-out" (5-mins ain't enough for this SLOOOOOW typist )

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I'm saying the Thessalonians [believers] are included in "the Church which is His body" (of which I believe this verse speaks: 2Cor2:13 "chosen you firstfruit") [Eph1:20-23 WHEN ]

So, here's the basic question:

Do you deny individual election to salvation?

If so, what is your view of election to salvation? Some type of corporate election?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Well, I wish I could find your [recent?] post on something in Ephesians 1, for I disagreed (though didn't post yet) with your wording as you put it, there (can't recall it off the top of my head). If/when I find it, I might be able to show you how I disagree with the point you were making, and show how I understand it instead. [finding that post, otoh, could take me DAYS ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT: My Post #343 should read: "2Thess2:13 'chosen you firstfruit'"... (not 2Cor2:13... was trying to squeeze it in under the wire )

 

[notuptome]

John 10:26 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
The reason for unbelief is because they are not Jesus' sheep, whom the Father gave to him.

If they were, they would believe. But, they are not, so they don't believe.

God has only given certain individuals to Jesus...the elect.

John 6:37 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

And, those who are given to the Son will NEVER BE CAST OUT.

That addresses those who deny eternal security.

All men are lost until they come to Christ. Those who come to Christ are accounted as sheep and receive the benefits of sheep. I fully support eternal security of the believer because the bible teaches it. I cannot support Calvinism the way it is taught because it is not biblical.

Ask yourself have you had the John 16:8-11 experience? Romans tells us that God has concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. All will not receive Christ and be saved but God is merciful toward all that the out come is on man and not God. Adam chose to sin in the garden and men must choose to believe Gods word to be saved.

God knowing all things knows who will and who will not believe. If God were going to act in the fashion you might think is best God would certainly choose that all will be saved but that He might be glorified God chose to give man a choice to believe or to reject.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

when does God elect - i.e. choose - a person?
if He calls us "by name" doesn't it imply that He knows exactly who it is He is calling prior to their response?

"pre" destined means "beforehand"
"post" destined means "afterward"

Ae you asking me how do I put God into time? God knows all things and occupies all of time all of the time. Of course God calls us by name for He made each and every one of us in time.

God knows our response but that does not require God to dictate our response. God knew that Eve would be deceived and that Adam would sin but God did not intercede to prevent sin. Is God glorified when a soul comes to Christ and is saved? Is God glorified when a man rejects Christ and dies under condemnation? God cannot be glorified if man had no choice and his fate was predetermined before his birth.

Gods plan of salvation was conceived before God created the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

All men are lost until they come to Christ. Those who come to Christ are accounted as sheep and receive the benefits of sheep. I fully support eternal security of the believer because the bible teaches it. I cannot support Calvinism the way it is taught because it is not biblical.

Ask yourself have you had the John 16:8-11 experience? Romans tells us that God has concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. All will not receive Christ and be saved but God is merciful toward all that the out come is on man and not God. Adam chose to sin in the garden and men must choose to believe Gods word to be saved.

God knowing all things knows who will and who will not believe. If God were going to act in the fashion you might think is best God would certainly choose that all will be saved but that He might be glorified God chose to give man a choice to believe or to reject.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Your theology might work if you ignore major parts of the NT, including John 6, 10. Romans 8, 9 Ephesians 1, Acts 12, and other sections which talk about the sheep the Father gave the Son, and the fact that some are vessels of destruction. You simply cannot reconcile the Bible.

And the claim that individuals are not chosen runs up against multiple Scriptures, but I find the most telling to be 1 Cor 1:26ff which state that God chose individuals, not of noble character, so that his power might be shown more fully in them, so that no one may boast.

However, man hates the idea that God is sovereign over all things including salvation, and that he is not in control. That is why Reformed theology rubs men the wrong way.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

All men are lost until they come to Christ. Those who come to Christ are accounted as sheep and receive the benefits of sheep. I fully support eternal security of the believer because the bible teaches it. I cannot support Calvinism the way it is taught because it is not biblical.

Ask yourself have you had the John 16:8-11 experience? Romans tells us that God has concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. All will not receive Christ and be saved but God is merciful toward all that the out come is on man and not God. Adam chose to sin in the garden and men must choose to believe Gods word to be saved.

God knowing all things knows who will and who will not believe. If God were going to act in the fashion you might think is best God would certainly choose that all will be saved but that He might be glorified God chose to give man a choice to believe or to reject.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger is proclaiming decisional regeneration here. In other words, you as a carnal man with a stony heart can somehow work up faith and repentance from your own stony heart. You do this so you can receive a heart of flesh that wants to please and obey God.

But you have to try really, really hard to work this up with a stony heart. It's like squeezing blood out of a turnip.

And, when you're done with doing that, you can feel really good about yourself. You have boasting rights since you contributed your 1% to your salvation.

No, I reject decisional regeneration.

Regeneration is a work of God which changes a cold, stony heart into a heart of flesh. This heart of flesh wants to please and obey God. Faith and repentance flow naturally from this heart of flesh. You cannot boast because God has given you this heart of flesh, and you have nothing to brag about.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules

 

[notuptome]

Your theology might work if you ignore major parts of the NT, including John 6, 10. Romans 8, 9 Ephesians 1, Acts 12, and other sections which talk about the sheep the Father gave the Son, and the fact that some are vessels of destruction. You simply cannot reconcile the Bible.

And the claim that individuals are not chosen runs up against multiple Scriptures, but I find the most telling to be 1 Cor 1:26ff which state that God chose individuals, not of noble character, so that his power might be shown more fully in them, so that no one may boast.

However, man hates the idea that God is sovereign over all things including salvation, and that he is not in control. That is why Reformed theology rubs men the wrong way.

So you have never submitted your will to the will of God? You have never been under conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment?

I never said I hate the idea of Gods sovereignty. Those are your words. I never said I had any part in my salvation this again is your supposition. What rubs you sore is that God calls all men to be saved and not just an elect few. You make election the controlling means by which men become saved. God saves according to His mercy not a lottery.

You cannot grow into a mature Christian following the path that you have chosen.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Roger is proclaiming decisional regeneration here. In other words, you as a carnal man with a stony heart can somehow work up faith and repentance from your own stony heart. You do this so you can receive a heart of flesh that wants to please and obey God.

But you have to try really, really hard to work this up with a stony heart. It's like squeezing blood out of a turnip.

And, when you're done with doing that, you can feel really good about yourself. You have boasting rights since you contributed your 1% to your salvation.

No, I reject decisional regeneration.

Regeneration is a work of God which changes a cold, stony heart into a heart of flesh. This heart of flesh wants to please and obey God. Faith and repentance flow naturally from this heart of flesh. You cannot boast because God has given you this heart of flesh, and you have nothing to brag about.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules

You are rejecting the will of God. You might want to consider into what you have placed so much zeal. Are you a bible believer or a Calvinist? If you actually understood Calvinism you would not take the positions you take in opposition to the bible.

It is the mercy of God which rubs you the wrong way. You cannot understand how God can love all men and have a plan to redeem them that is so broad and rich in grace that those who perish do so according to their will and not the will of God. You cannot perceive that God can be sovereign and allow men to choose. Gods sovereignty is not threatened by mans will. Man was created in the image of God and man has a will that must be subjected to Gods will. God allowed Adam to sin and God will allow you to choose life over death.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I have a Master of Divinity, from a conservative Bible believing seminary, that gave me tools for ministry as well as a solid understanding of Scripture, and Bible Interpretation or hermeneutics. I certainly don't know everything, but it gave me the tools to dig deeper for the truth. I have been working in a PhD in theology, such an amazing way to study the Bible, under the leading of the Holy Spirit.

There are people, who can do this on their own. I have met them! But for me, 7 pt time years of study under Bible believing professors taught me me about the Bible, about God and theology, and how to serve, more than I could have learned in my own.

I'm sorry you have met people who didn't grow into solid, mature Christians, as I had the opportunity to do.

How do you interpret the scripture; I thank you Father, that you have hidden these mysteries from the wise and prudent and delivered them unto babes? As I recall, Paul said that he counted all that he had been taught, at the feet of Gamaliel, as dung, that he may win Christ. After his conversion on the road to Damascus he did not confer with the other Apostles, but was taught by the Holy Spirit.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So you have never submitted your will to the will of God? You have never been under conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment?

I never said I hate the idea of Gods sovereignty. Those are your words. I never said I had any part in my salvation this again is your supposition. What rubs you sore is that God calls all men to be saved and not just an elect few. You make election the controlling means by which men become saved. God saves according to His mercy not a lottery.

You cannot grow into a mature Christian following the path that you have chosen.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You cannot be a mature christian by thinking that eternal salvation is by your choice in "letting" God save you eternally. That would make Jesus's death on the cross null and void, and make you your own savor. There is a deliverance ( salvation ) we receive here in this world by our good works. You need to rightly divide the salvation scriptures.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

All men are lost until they come to Christ. Those who come to Christ are accounted as sheep and receive the benefits of sheep. I fully support eternal security of the believer because the bible teaches it. I cannot support Calvinism the way it is taught because it is not biblical.

Ask yourself have you had the John 16:8-11 experience? Romans tells us that God has concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. All will not receive Christ and be saved but God is merciful toward all that the out come is on man and not God. Adam chose to sin in the garden and men must choose to believe Gods word to be saved.

God knowing all things knows who will and who will not believe. If God were going to act in the fashion you might think is best God would certainly choose that all will be saved but that He might be glorified God chose to give man a choice to believe or to reject.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

But you are not including all scriptures ( Psalms 53:2 ) in your conclusion that God saw, beforehand, that some would believe and seek him.

 

[notuptome]

But you are not including all scriptures ( Psalms 53:2 ) in your conclusion that God saw, beforehand, that some would believe and seek him.

Scripture says none seek Him. Romans 3:11

Of course God saw before hand. God inhabits eternity. To state that because God saw that God orchestrates is a false conclusion. Gods sovereign will allows for a permissive will without conflict that is true sovereignty .

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

You cannot be a mature christian by thinking that eternal salvation is by your choice in "letting" God save you eternally. That would make Jesus's death on the cross null and void, and make you your own savor. There is a deliverance ( salvation ) we receive here in this world by our good works. You need to rightly divide the salvation scriptures.

You obviously have no idea. You are equating salvation to good works. We are saved out of this world and await redemption in the world to come as our Savior promised.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[posthuman]

How do you interpret the scripture; I thank you Father, that you have hidden these mysteries from the wise and prudent and delivered them unto babes? As I recall, Paul said that he counted all that he had been taught, at the feet of Gamaliel, as dung, that he may win Christ. After his conversion on the road to Damascus he did not confer with the other Apostles, but was taught by the Holy Spirit.

And He told Timothy to study, and the Berean Jews are called more noble because they searched the scriptures to see if what they heard was true, and God says His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

It's not 'bad' to seek out and procure wisdom, knowledge and understanding. It's commendable.

 

[Whispered]

Your copy and pastes are all from English and modern language sources. This means they have been translated already, from the original language. Therefore, you are getting a translational bias before you even start!

Much better to use a lexicon, which looks at the word in Greek (Bauer) or Brown-Driver-Briggs for Hebrew. Plus all the examples are tied to the Scriptures. These lexicons go much deeper than these simplistic glosses, and every example comes right from
scripture. So you might have 1 or 2 definitions, a lexicon might have 6 or 10, and takes pages to examine them all and how and where they used in the Bible, plus grammatical issues. (I did mention BDAG or Bauer as the Greek lexicon that the majority of scholars use! But I didn't bring up B-D-B the Hebrew lexicon because we weren't talking about Hebrew words!)

That's what people who either want to defend, or make new doctrines do! They use lexicons and grammars. Daniel Wallace has an excellent grammar, "Beyond the Basics of Biblical Greek." He has 90 pages on the word "the" and another 90 pages in the anarthrous article. Quite an interesting read!

Sorry for the typo on parabasis. Typing on a phone can be so difficult, and my very damaged finger tips (I can't hold my phone in a way to use thumbs, plus I have a huge nodule on my right thumb, which hurts and gets bigger every time it is touched.) So, typos happen! Besides, para is a preposition in Greek, making the word compound, which I noticed immediately. On my computer I use Greek letters, but I don't have a template on my phone to use the Greek.

I do realize phones are not forum friendly at times. And I too have made my screen far bigger than intended when texting or some such.

Thank you for your advice.

One point of note I would like to interject. I am not seeking to introduce or make a new doctrine. The charge does not apply to me, and while it is your prerogative to infer as much, when I tell you it is not my intention, motivation, nor will , please respect that and dispense with the charge you've repeated twice now.

This thread was started due to encounter here with devout Calvinists. My intention for starting the thread is because what the article presents is not only what I have encountered here, as I will presume to say as have others, and the rebuttal to those tactics. The article and subsequent replies are discussing God's word and comparing it to the ideology and doctrine of Calvinism in particular.

Using a Bible Concordance in the Greek, as you did in rebuttal to my offering of information here, is not in any wise evidence of hoping to make new doctrine. That is evident because of the resources used for the Greek translation that is already Doctrine appearing in scripture. I would also note that your offering of Greek translation in your reply, rebuttal, were sourced from the very sites I myself use for that same purpose.

P.S. I adore the materials offered by Dr. Wallace and have shared those here a time or two. Have you had occasion to watch his lectures on You Tube?

God Bless.