3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

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UnitedWithChrist

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No you missed it entirely.

There are none righteous all have gone out of the way and become unprofitable. There are no sheep until God saves them by grace through faith. You remove from man any and all responsibility for his sin. You make God responsible for man becoming a sinner.

Adam chose to sin. Man must choose between his sin and Christ. One becomes elect when he receives Christ and is saved. Man is not saved and does not receive Christ because he is elect.

Fof the cause of Christ
Roger

John 10:26 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
The reason for unbelief is because they are not Jesus' sheep, whom the Father gave to him.

If they were, they would believe. But, they are not, so they don't believe.

God has only given certain individuals to Jesus...the elect.

John 6:37 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

And, those who are given to the Son will NEVER BE CAST OUT.

That addresses those who deny eternal security.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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From my Post #99 at the link I provided in the other thread, this portion tells who He gave to Him:

[quoting that portion (the underlining doesn't transfer)]

John 17:6-20 [blb] -

Prayer for the Disciples

6 I revealed Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. [<--He did this personally] They were Yours, and to Me You gave them, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things You have given Me are of You. 8 For the words that You have given Me I have given them, and they received them, and knew truly that I came forth from You; and they believed that You sent Me.
9 I am praying concerning them. I do not pray concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all things of mine are Yours, and Yours Mine. And I have been glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You.
Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me, that they may be one as we are. 12 When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. And I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I am coming to You, and I speak these things in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them. 14 I have given them Your word, and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I do not ask that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from evil. 16 They are not of the world, as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world; 19 and for them I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

Prayer for all Believers

20 But I do not ask for these only, but also for those believing in Me through their word, [...]


[so this is showing the distinction between "they have kept your word" / He had [aorist] shown the Father to them, personally (that is, to living disciples the Father had given Him, especially the Apostles), AND "those believing IN ME through their word"--Recall 1Jn4 "14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." And 1Jn5, "10 The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one having the Son has life; the one not having the Son of God does not have life."]

[end quoting]


____________

[now quoting Wm Kelly on John 10--much of which I agree (with minor caveat)]


William Kelly (John 10 Commentary)-

"The Lord returns to His laying down His life for the sheep. Nor can we wonder; for as He could give no greater proof of love, so there is nothing which is so strengthening, as well as humbling, to our souls, nothing that so glorifies God, and no other turning-point for the blessing of the universe. At this point, however, it is the good Shepherd's love for the sheep.

"Here the Lord can speak distinctly for the first time of other objects of His love. He might come minister of the circumcision for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24.) But His love could not be so circumscribed, when His death opens the floodgates. The mention of His death leads Him to speak of what was quite outside Israel. "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold"-not of the Jewish people within their enclosure of law and ordinance; "them also I must lead, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be* one flock, one shepherd" (verse 16).
* corr BDLX, etc., support the plural form, γενήσονται, "they shall be," the rest have the sing., γενήσεται [Weiss, Blass], which might bear the same meaning.

"It is not, as in the English Bible and others, following the Vulgate, "one fold," but "one flock." God owns no such thing now as a fold. It is exclusively Jewish; and the idea came in among Christians through the Judaizing of the Church, while the truth of the Church, when seen, makes such a thought or word, as applied to itself, intolerable. The truth is, as we have heard, that the Lord was to put forth all His own, He going before them, and the sheep following. So it was out of the Jewish fold. But other sheep He had which were not of it. "Them also I must lead, and they shall hear My voice." It was to be from among the Gentiles; and the believers there hear His voice, believing the Gospel. But they form no new enclosure, fenced in by law, like the fold of Israel. The liberty of Christ is of the essence of Christianity, not only life and pardon, but freedom as well as food. For if Christ be all, what lack can there be? The Jewish sheep have been led out, the Gentile sheep are gathered, and both compose one flock, as truly as there is one Shepherd.194

"One cause that has done as much as anything to dull the saints to the perception of the truth here is the fact of so many denominational enclosures in which they find themselves. Does it seem harsh to say that such a state of things, built up by Reformers and others of peculiar energy since the Reformation, is unauthorised? But what saith the Scripture, our only standard? "One flock, one Shepherd." How painful to find persons so prejudiced as to teach, "Many folds, but one flock"! But this is to pervert rather than to expound the word of God, which admits of no fold now that spirit and letter refuse the plea.

"Another element which has wrought powerfully in favour of "one fold" is the mischievous confusion of the Church with Israel, Zion, etc., which runs through not only common theology, but even the headings of the Authorised Version, and constantly, therefore, is before all eyes. Hence, if we are now so identified with the ancient people of God that we are warranted to interpret all that is said of them in the Old Testament as our present portion, one cannot be surprised that this should tend to a similar result in the New.
But Christ's death has an aspect towards His Father of the deepest delight and complacency, besides being the basis of redemption and of Christianity. "On this account the Father loveth Me, because I lay down My life (soul) that I may take it again. No one taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again: this commandment I received from My Father" (verses 17, 18). The Lord does not add here "for the sheep," nor should we limit His death to ourselves. He lets us see the value His own laying down His life had in itself. […]"

[end quoting]
 

posthuman

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One becomes elect when he receives Christ and is saved. Man is not saved and does not receive Christ because he is elect.
when does God elect - i.e. choose - a person?
if He calls us "by name" doesn't it imply that He knows exactly who it is He is calling prior to their response?

"pre" destined means "beforehand"
"post" destined means "afterward"
 

UnitedWithChrist

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From my Post #99 at the link I provided in the other thread, this portion tells who He gave to Him:

[quoting that portion (the underlining doesn't transfer)]

John 17:6-20 [blb] -

Prayer for the Disciples

6 I revealed Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. [<--He did this personally] They were Yours, and to Me You gave them, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things You have given Me are of You. 8 For the words that You have given Me I have given them, and they received them, and knew truly that I came forth from You; and they believed that You sent Me.
9 I am praying concerning them. I do not pray concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all things of mine are Yours, and Yours Mine. And I have been glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You.
Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me, that they may be one as we are. 12 When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. And I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I am coming to You, and I speak these things in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them. 14 I have given them Your word, and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I do not ask that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from evil. 16 They are not of the world, as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world; 19 and for them I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

Prayer for all Believers

20 But I do not ask for these only, but also for those believing in Me through their word, [...]


[so this is showing the distinction between "they have kept your word" / He had [aorist] shown the Father to them, personally (that is, to living disciples the Father had given Him, especially the Apostles), AND "those believing IN ME through their word"--Recall 1Jn4 "14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." And 1Jn5, "10 The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one having the Son has life; the one not having the Son of God does not have life."]

[end quoting]
We know from 1 Cor 1:26ff that God has chosen more than just the apostles, if that is the claim.

Corinthians was addressed to the entire church, and it is clear that God chose weak individuals in order to show his glory more clearly.

Besides, you are not quoting the entire section (and notice the "whoever" part):


John 6:35-51 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
(ESV)

I find it quite amusing that free-willers press the "whoever" part of John 3:16 but ignore it here :D
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Besides, you are not quoting the entire section (and notice the "whoever" part):
John 6:35-51 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
I believe [where I've added the color] that these parts correlate, just as the black-bold correlate with each other also.


And I pointed out the verse 36 part, in the Post #99 link I provided (my comment in brackets, if I recall, on that point)
 

UnitedWithChrist

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From my Post #99 at the link I provided in the other thread, this portion tells who He gave to Him:

[quoting that portion (the underlining doesn't transfer)]

John 17:6-20 [blb] -

Prayer for the Disciples

6 I revealed Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. [<--He did this personally] They were Yours, and to Me You gave them, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things You have given Me are of You. 8 For the words that You have given Me I have given them, and they received them, and knew truly that I came forth from You; and they believed that You sent Me.
9 I am praying concerning them. I do not pray concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all things of mine are Yours, and Yours Mine. And I have been glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You.
Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me, that they may be one as we are. 12 When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. And I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I am coming to You, and I speak these things in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them. 14 I have given them Your word, and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I do not ask that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from evil. 16 They are not of the world, as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world; 19 and for them I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

Prayer for all Believers

20 But I do not ask for these only, but also for those believing in Me through their word, [...]


[so this is showing the distinction between "they have kept your word" / He had [aorist] shown the Father to them, personally (that is, to living disciples the Father had given Him, especially the Apostles), AND "those believing IN ME through their word"--Recall 1Jn4 "14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." And 1Jn5, "10 The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one having the Son has life; the one not having the Son of God does not have life."]

[end quoting]


____________

[now quoting Wm Kelly on John 10--much of which I agree (with minor caveat)]


William Kelly (John 10 Commentary)-

"The Lord returns to His laying down His life for the sheep. Nor can we wonder; for as He could give no greater proof of love, so there is nothing which is so strengthening, as well as humbling, to our souls, nothing that so glorifies God, and no other turning-point for the blessing of the universe. At this point, however, it is the good Shepherd's love for the sheep.

"Here the Lord can speak distinctly for the first time of other objects of His love. He might come minister of the circumcision for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24.) But His love could not be so circumscribed, when His death opens the floodgates. The mention of His death leads Him to speak of what was quite outside Israel. "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold"-not of the Jewish people within their enclosure of law and ordinance; "them also I must lead, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be* one flock, one shepherd" (verse 16).
* corr BDLX, etc., support the plural form, γενήσονται, "they shall be," the rest have the sing., γενήσεται [Weiss, Blass], which might bear the same meaning.

"It is not, as in the English Bible and others, following the Vulgate, "one fold," but "one flock." God owns no such thing now as a fold. It is exclusively Jewish; and the idea came in among Christians through the Judaizing of the Church, while the truth of the Church, when seen, makes such a thought or word, as applied to itself, intolerable. The truth is, as we have heard, that the Lord was to put forth all His own, He going before them, and the sheep following. So it was out of the Jewish fold. But other sheep He had which were not of it. "Them also I must lead, and they shall hear My voice." It was to be from among the Gentiles; and the believers there hear His voice, believing the Gospel. But they form no new enclosure, fenced in by law, like the fold of Israel. The liberty of Christ is of the essence of Christianity, not only life and pardon, but freedom as well as food. For if Christ be all, what lack can there be? The Jewish sheep have been led out, the Gentile sheep are gathered, and both compose one flock, as truly as there is one Shepherd.194

"One cause that has done as much as anything to dull the saints to the perception of the truth here is the fact of so many denominational enclosures in which they find themselves. Does it seem harsh to say that such a state of things, built up by Reformers and others of peculiar energy since the Reformation, is unauthorised? But what saith the Scripture, our only standard? "One flock, one Shepherd." How painful to find persons so prejudiced as to teach, "Many folds, but one flock"! But this is to pervert rather than to expound the word of God, which admits of no fold now that spirit and letter refuse the plea.

"Another element which has wrought powerfully in favour of "one fold" is the mischievous confusion of the Church with Israel, Zion, etc., which runs through not only common theology, but even the headings of the Authorised Version, and constantly, therefore, is before all eyes. Hence, if we are now so identified with the ancient people of God that we are warranted to interpret all that is said of them in the Old Testament as our present portion, one cannot be surprised that this should tend to a similar result in the New.
But Christ's death has an aspect towards His Father of the deepest delight and complacency, besides being the basis of redemption and of Christianity. "On this account the Father loveth Me, because I lay down My life (soul) that I may take it again. No one taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again: this commandment I received from My Father" (verses 17, 18). The Lord does not add here "for the sheep," nor should we limit His death to ourselves. He lets us see the value His own laying down His life had in itself. […]"

[end quoting]
Additionally:


John 17:1-2 “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
(ESV)


Jesus is authorized to give eternal life to all that the Father has given him.

It's pretty funny that you would claim that the 12 disciples are the intended audience of John 6.

He was talking to more than just the 12 disciples.

And, it looks to me like Jesus is only authorized to give eternal life to those who are given to him by the Father.
 

posthuman

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Scripture CLEARLY teaches that man is a slave to sin (see Romans 6, John 8). Regardless of being a slave to sin, he is still responsible for his sin. God issues these "oughts" (commandments), and one purpose of them is to display to man that he is a sinner and is under God's just and righteous punishment. This should propel the elect toward realizing that he is helpless to fully obey God, and when the Holy Spirit regenerates him, he exercises faith and repentance.
yes,
there has to be a reason that this exists:

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad — in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by Him who calls — she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
(Romans 9:11-14)
why would anyone say God is unjust?
because as Paul has just pointed out, God's purpose in election took place before Jacob or Esau were even born. that doesn't seem to jive with the explanation that God elects after-the-fact

also:

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist His will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?
(Romans 9:19-20)

what is this?
what is Paul saying, that someone's natural reply would be "
why does God still blame us?"
what is He saying about God's will, that the logical response would be "
who can resist His will?"
that is - the logical response if someone does not have the humility to refrain from talking back to God: to make themselves God's judge in these matters. it seems to me, this is exactly Roger's response when he says, i am taking responsibility of man for his sin away and blaming God. he is saying, that means God doesn't have the right to blame us.
similarly, something about the systematic theology Romans is pointing out, leads to the identical confrontation: what Paul is telling us is something that a man will respond to by saying "
then God doesn't have any right to judge, because i can't resist His will" - which is to say, "what your doctrine implies is that the responsibility of what i'm being judged for is God's, not mine"

but who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?

this is hard to chew, but i think, it being so, we will be able to chew it, and be sustained by it, for a long time. it doesn't lack nutrition for its toughness. ;)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Additionally:
John 17:1-2 “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
(ESV)
Jesus is authorized to give eternal life to all that the Father has given him.
It's pretty funny that you would claim that the 12 disciples are the intended audience of John 6.
He was talking to more than just the 12 disciples.
And, it looks to me like Jesus is only authorized to give eternal life to those who are given to him by the Father
It seems to me, that in your "skimming," you have missed a part of what I'd said, therein:

"And I [/Jesus], if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself." John 12:32
 

UnitedWithChrist

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yes,
there has to be a reason that this exists:


Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad — in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by Him who calls — she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
(Romans 9:11-14)
why would anyone say God is unjust?
because as Paul has just pointed out, God's purpose in election took place before Jacob or Esau were even born. that doesn't seem to jive with the explanation that God elects after-the-fact


also:

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist His will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?
(Romans 9:19-20)

what is this?
what is Paul saying, that someone's natural reply would be "
why does God still blame us?"
what is He saying about God's will, that the logical response would be "
who can resist His will?"
that is - the logical response if someone does not have the humility to refrain from talking back to God: to make themselves God's judge in these matters. it seems to me, this is exactly Roger's response when he says, i am taking responsibility of man for his sin away and blaming God. he is saying, that means God doesn't have the right to blame us.
similarly, something about the systematic theology Romans is pointing out, leads to the identical confrontation: what Paul is telling us is something that a man will respond to by saying "
then God doesn't have any right to judge, because i can't resist His will" - which is to say, "what your doctrine implies is that the responsibility of what i'm being judged for is God's, not mine"

but who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?
this is hard to chew, but i think, it being so, we will be able to chew it, and be sustained by it, for a long time. it doesn't lack nutrition for its toughness. ;)
This is one of the problems with free will theology that I noted on the other thread...it claims that if God issues an "ought", that implies that man must have the ability to follow the "ought". Otherwise, God cannot hold man responsible for sin.

God does, indeed, hold man responsible for his sins even though he is a slave to sin.

And, for the elect, the realization of their sin debt, and their utter spiritual bankruptcy brings him to the point of dependence upon God and his grace. Even if they were some self-righteous guy who thinks he is acceptable to God.

I can remember the moment, after a long period of conscientious obedience, that God showed me my corrupted mind was deceiving me into thinking I was meeting God's expectations. He caused Jeremiah 17:9 to come to my mind, and things I had said/done that were unacceptable to Him....that was the moment when I was able to fully accept Christ in faith and repentance. You could say that I understood total depravity (radical corruption) at that moment in time. Personally I wonder if anyone is at a deep level of conversion if they don't understand this.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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It seems to me, that in your "skimming," you have missed a part of what I'd said, therein:

"And I [/Jesus], if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself." John 12:32
I already commented on that in the past. Don't you remember?

John 12:32 2 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

As I referenced, the previous narrative is talking about Greeks who came to talk to Jesus.

John 12:20-24 20 Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks. 21 So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus.” 22 Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus. 23 And Jesus answered them, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

Jesus was saying, in effect, that it wasn't the time for him to reach Gentiles, and this would come after the resurrection.

However, I would NOT hold the view that Jesus has drawn all people to Himself, in terms of every single person. I believe he is talking about "all people" in terms of both Gentile AND Jew. That is the traditional Reformed perspective, and it represents the bias that Jews had toward claiming that only Jews receive salvation.

Like I have said many times, the Father has given the Son certain individuals, and those individuals are drawn to the Father. They receive eternal life.

It is impossible to get away from the fact of election in Scripture. God is sovereign over salvation. Those who have problems with this have problems with God. That is what Romans 9 is addressing. Who are you, o man, to answer back?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ My point is speaking to time-frame(s), not what you are suggesting my point is. ;) (Just like verse 20 of John 17 does.)


[" For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He gave to the Son to have life in Himself." John 5:26]
 

UnitedWithChrist

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^ My point is speaking to time-frame(s), not what you are suggesting my point is. ;) (Just like verse 20 of John 17 does.)


[" For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He gave to the Son to have life in Himself." John 5:26]
OK..so are you making a claim that these verses are in a different dispensation, and that election is no longer applicable in the post-Pentecost era?

That would not be true, as 1 Cor 1:26ff definitely says that the individuals in the Corinthian church were chosen BY GOD, and even names particular characteristics that causes their salvation to be a clearer display of God's glory?

By the way, you are aware I am not into the dodgy dispensationalist claim that they are "rightly dividing the Scriptures" as if that is talking about dicing up Scripture into different dispensations?

In other words, I don't go for this hermeneutical tactic of creating a dispensation so that someone can define the rules of this dispensation versus another, and maintain their doctrinal presuppositions.

There is no indication that the rules change in regards to election between Jesus' ministry and afterwards. And, if they do, why do you use John 3:16 to claim that there is no election?

I find it amazing that you would try that game, if that's what you're doing. I suspect it is, because Melach made some comment about dispensations as the reason for rejecting the fact that Jesus' sheep believe because they are his sheep.

If your reference to time-frames is a reference to dispensations, then why not bring it up?

I do acknowledge the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant, but that's about as far as it goes with me. But, i don't acknowledge that there was a change between Jesus' ministry and afterwards concerning election.

I am guessing on what your claim is, because you're not saying things plainly like I do. I simply tell people exactly what I believe instead of being dodgy and suggestive about it.

Of course, my directness has caused some to get upset, including Nehemiah6. Apparently he's calling for me to leave the site because he doesn't want his worldview challenged. I guess he's all for free-will but he can't handle free speech :)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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That would not be true, as 1 Cor 1:26ff definitely says that the individuals in the Corinthian church were chosen BY GOD, and even names particular characteristics that causes their salvation to be a clearer display of God's glory?
Why does the following verse say that "Jesus" CHOSE "you twelve" but one of them "is a devil"?

"Jesus answered them, 'Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And one of you is a devil!'" John 6:70

https://biblehub.com/text/john/6-70.htm

Was Judas "saved" and then "lost it" (according to you)? Or did Jesus "choose Judas to be a devil"? Or, other...? Was Judas "given" to Jesus (by God)?
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Why does the following verse say that "Jesus" CHOSE "you twelve" but one of them "is a devil"?

"Jesus answered them, 'Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And one of you is a devil!'" John 6:70

https://biblehub.com/text/john/6-70.htm
Judas was an exception.

Judas was chosen for damnation.

By the way, Judas himself is a testament to God's sovereignty. I am amazed how free-willers try to twist that situation around.

Some even claim Judas could have chosen otherwise, and not fulfilled Scripture.

The idea that Judas was predestined to destruction, yet Scripture was fulfilled through him, is abhorrent to them. They cannot fathom the idea that God would assign someone to damnation prior to their birth.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
(ESV Strong's)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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...and you may not recall my posts (it's okay) regarding the "G138 - heilato /haireó " of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (which I tend to agree with the versions which translate it as "chosen you firstfruit"


[quoting from BibleHub]

" choose.
Probably akin to airo [G142]; to take for oneself, i.e. To prefer -- choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.
see GREEK airo"

[end quoting]

https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-13.htm

In THIS context, I believe it is speaking "to,for,about" "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN ] (all those saved "in this present age [singular]")
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Why does the following verse say that "Jesus" CHOSE "you twelve" but one of them "is a devil"?

"Jesus answered them, 'Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And one of you is a devil!'" John 6:70

https://biblehub.com/text/john/6-70.htm

Was Judas "saved" and then "lost it" (according to you)? Or did Jesus "choose Judas to be a devil"? Or, other...? Was Judas "given" to Jesus (by God)?
Judas was never a believer. He was a devil, like Jesus said. He did NOT believe.

He was chosen in a different sense. He was chosen for damnation, and to fulfill Scripture.

John 6:64 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
(ESV Strong's)

He never believed in a saving sense.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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...and you may not recall my posts (it's okay) regarding the "G138 - heilato /haireó " of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (which I tend to agree with the versions which translate it as "chosen you firstfruit"


[quoting from BibleHub]

" choose.
Probably akin to airo [G142]; to take for oneself, i.e. To prefer -- choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.
see GREEK airo"

[end quoting]

https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-13.htm

In THIS context, I believe it is speaking "to,for,about" "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN ] (all those saved "in this present age [singular]")
What's your point here? Do you claim this Scripture doesn't refer to the election of the believers of this church?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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"Wherefore, I will not be careless always to remind you concerning these things, though, having known them, and having been established in the present truth"
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Judas was never a believer. He was a devil, like Jesus said. He did NOT believe.
He was chosen in a different sense.
We agree here ^ , from what I can tell. :)

And Jesus had said HE/JESUS chose the 12. ;) (Sure, it was after He prayed... I'm just saying the "chose" action was done BY JESUS, He said)

He was chosen for damnation, and to fulfill Scripture.
John 6:64 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
(ESV Strong's)
He never believed in a saving sense.