Did Jesus and Paul teach differnt gospels?
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What you said " therefore your only interest is to prove that the law of Moses is still in force"
No, just because you put words and ideas into my mouth, assingin them to me does not make the mtrue. That is a very very dishonest form of discussion/debate.
Look at my user name. Look at my posts from my own desire, not when defending. My interest is in following the Shepherd in truth.
2 John 1:9-11, " 9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works."
I am shocked that so many Christians believe following Jesus is wrong, this is unreal.
SO you post "till haven and earth pass" Has that happened yet? It will happen, but not yet.
Revelation 21:1-2, " 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."
Has the 2nd coming of Jesus been fulfilled? No?
Then this proves the exact oppisite of what you say.
How do peoples obedience have ANYTHING to do with if rules are still valid or not?
None are sinless, some were obedient.
Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”
Luke 1:5-6, " 5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord."
Since these people sinned how could they be "kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws" and "they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord"
If you let the word intrepret the word you will see.
Ezekiel 18:20-24, " 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die."
Remember this:
Genesis 22:7-8, " 7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” He said, “Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” 8 Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together.
Religious Jews have made their own law that hey say superseeds the torah. So that is not even having anything to do with what im saying.
Ok so about the zealots!
there are some laws about womens menstural cycle, that is not for men to keep.
There are some laws only for the high priest, that is not for anyone to keep other than the high priest.
Other than these type of instances all laws apply IMO. This is not false doctrine this is EXACTLY what the word says.
SO the law was only valid insode the physical borders of Israel, so what if they left the counttry they could sin?
So Jesus said "when the temple is demolished the law is gone" I missed that verse.
Marcelo, you are just making things up now, this is nonsense you said "Today it is impossible to keep all the ordinances of the law of Moses and that means ALL has already been fulfilled."
Jesus was clear:
Matthew 5:17-18, " 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
again heaven and earth has not passed and Jesus 2nd coming is not yet fulfilled.
With all that said, sert the law asode for a second.
The most important thing, that you told me im wrong on; is that we FOLLOW JESUS, that is what matters.
John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”
John 13:15, “For I (Jesus) gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.”
1 Peter 2:21, “This is, in fact, what you were called to do, because Christ also suffered for you and left an example for you to follow in His steps.”
1 John 1:26, “The one who says that he abides in him must live the same way he (Jesus) himself lived.”
I get that and I told you I can;t say 100% but it seems the RCC has skewed opinion on this matter, that one of the James' from scriptres that was Jesus disciple was actually His brother. Again I can't say 100% and it;s a deep study that I am not even close to done with but there are historical records that point in that dorection.
Why do you keep harping on whether James was Jesus brother?
If some Catholics want to insist that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life, let them be.
There is no link between these 2 topics.
Ok I don;t think I ever said anyhitng diferrent than this? Clearly the evil servant who "beats his fellow servants" IS NOT walking in love and therefore NOT following Jesus, but is rather a "tare" if you will. Still in the field but to be cast into the fire when the harvest is made.
I don't care for labels, call me whatever, not saying you did, but it will not scare me away from showing what the greek says.
John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
“does not obey” is word #G544 - apeitheó: to disobey, Original Word: ἀπειθέω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: apeitheó, Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o), Short Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.
Bottom line is none will enter God's kingdom without God's mercy. That does not mean the KJV mistranslation is correct.
What do you believe it means to "keep" His commandments? The Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" (Strong's #5083) means to guard, observe, watch over His commandments. It does not mean sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to all of His commandments, as sinless perfectionists teach. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him, already saved, demonstrative evidence) if we keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Whoever says he abides in Him certainly ought to walk in the same manner that He walked and as children of God that is what we strive to do.
I agree with this 100% I AM NOT SAYING YOU ARE saying this, but I find it odd that as soon as I say obedience, Law is good, not done away, we should obey Jesus many people start going " he thinks he is perfect!" "none are perfect!" It is very odd to me and has nothing to do with what I said.
I actually just posted this 20 mins ago you will probably like it:
How do peoples obedience have ANYTHING to do with if rules are still valid or not?
None are sinless, some were obedient.
Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”
Luke 1:5-6, " 5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord."
Since these people sinned how could they be "kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws" and "they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord"
If you let the word intrepret the word you will see.
Ezekiel 18:20-24, " 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die."
Remember this:
Genesis 22:7-8, " 7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” He said, “Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” 8 Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together.
OK, thats fine, I kept replying because you ALSO kept speaking on it. But it is not really on topic anyway so thats fine.
I'm just saying, consider...
Acts 3:26 [said by Peter to "ye men of Israel"] -
"God, having raised up His servant [('raised up') that is, in Jesus' earthly ministry BEFORE His death], sent Him first to you, blessing you in turning away each of you from your wickednesses/iniquities."
Actually from your exchanges with others I discover something fascinating.
Even among those who disagree with me, and strongly I may add, about the distinction between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace, when they were objecting to you, they kept using Pauline doctrine and somehow they don't want to engage you over what Jesus preached in the 4 Gospels.
I find that fascinating, even though they insist that Paul preach the exact same gospel as Jesus did in the 4 gospels, they don't seem keen on connecting the 2 messages together.
What I said is neither an accusation nor an offence. My only interest in this thread is to demonstrate that the risen Jesus used Paul to preach a different Gospel -- the Gospel of Grace, apart from the Law. Your only interest (as a debater) is to prove that Christians are supposed to keep the law of Moses. Or is there anything else you want to prove?
Obviously you want to be obedient to the Lord Jesus, but this is the desire of everybody in this forum.
"Till heaven and earth pass" is just an expression that gives more weight to the central statement -- "till ALL is fulfilled". It is obvious that the point in time at which the law of Moses would pass was "when ALL is fulfilled", not "when heaven and earth pass".
Those who obey the law of grace will have eternal life; those who attempt to obey the law of Moses will fall short of their goal.
You just added words, that does not change anything.
Acts 3: 26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”
Jesus says clearly
John 10:27-30, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; neither will any man snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand: I and My Father are in accord.”
John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”
Honestly this is the main reason I statrted this topic. While there is some overlap it appears the did not teach the same thing and most seem to throw out Jesus words and place Paul above Jesus, this is why I ask, who testifies of Paul as an apostle other than himself? I have not found a single place.
John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”
ohn 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”
Jesus told his disciples to obey the scribes and the Pharisees.
Again, there's no single person on earth who keeps the law of Moses.
In other countries they would not be able to keep all 613 ordinances. There would be no temple, probably they would not be allowed to sacrifice animals, to stone adulterers, etc.
If you believe ALL has not yet been fulfilled then you have to keep all 613 ordinances. If you break just one, you'll be guilty of breaking ALL of them.
Again my interest is this:
Deuteronomy 18:18-19, " 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19 And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.
John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
John 10:27-30, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; neither will any man snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand: I and My Father are in accord.”
John 5:39-40, “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”
John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”
Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My words (teachings) will not pass away.”
Matthew 12:50, “For whoever does the desire of My Father who is in the heavens is My brother and sister and mother.
Revelation 22:14-15, " 14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 14:12-13, " 12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”
1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
A reality, I could post 50 verses from the OT that also show this happeneing.
Revelation 21:1-2, " 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Habakkuk 3:5-6,5 Before Him goes pestilence, And a burning flame goes forth at His feet."6 He shall stand and measure the earth. He shall look and shake the nations. And the ancient mountains are shattered, The age-old hills shall bow. His ways are everlasting."
the 2nd coming of Jesus is not yet fulfilled.
Jesus told His disciples to sell their possessions and give alms. Have you already obeyed Him?