Did Jesus and Paul teach differnt gospels?

[posthuman]

I don't recommend using a magic 8 ball, or cards or dice to divine God's Will.

So i'm gonna say no to your question.

Because we have the Spirit?

The disciples in Acts 1-2 were supposed to be waiting for the Spirit to come when they cast lots between two people they chose amongst themselves. Does that count as waiting?

 

[Guojing]

Exactly the issue - you take the 4 gospels then as part of the OT - and so you do not have to deal with the hard sayings of Jesus.

I do not mind at all dealing with them and doing my best to live as He taught! It is a blessing and brings deep joy!

You are missing the real issue actually.

Why are you so confident that the instructions in Malachi and Haggai is not for you?

Is it just because there is a blank page that is titled "New Testament" appears in your bible?

 

[Chester]

You are missing the real issue actually.

Why are you so confident that the instructions in Malachi and Haggai is not for you?

Is it just because there is a blank page that is titled "New Testament" appears in your bible?

LOL! There are deep truths to be learned from Malachi and Haggai!

My question to you is why do you not want to take the teachings of Jesus literally as something for you to follow today?

 

[PennEd]

Because we have the Spirit?

The disciples in Acts 1-2 were supposed to be waiting for the Spirit to come when they cast lots between two people they chose amongst themselves. Does that count as waiting?

Is "I don't know" a viable answer?

 

[Guojing]

LOL! There are deep truths to be learned from Malachi and Haggai!

My question to you is why do you not want to take the teachings of Jesus literally as something for you to follow today?

Because he was then only speaking to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

Jesus made it a point to raise Paul specifically to reach out to me.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Its fascinating that you concluded James the Just as one of the 12 apostles, even though he only accepted Jesus after he was resurrected.

Going by your criteria, no one, not even James himself, acknowledged that he is an apostle. Yet you call him one of the 12.

Paul does not consider himself worthy to be considered among the 12 of them, and only calls himself an apostle to the Gentiles who will believe in him.

Even then, you have so much issues with that.

One the particular post was not about James, but I do have a question about this to you, maybe you can show me something I have missed.

SIngs and wonds are not enought to authenticate, Pharaoh's magicians could do wonders also.

Exodus 7:11-13, " 11 Then summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. 12 For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Still Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Deuteronomy 13:1-4, " 1 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him."

1 Corinthians 9:1-4, “9:1, "Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?"9:2, "If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord."9:3, "This is my defense to those who would examine me."9:4, "Do we not have the right to eat and drink?”

However this also is not a valid way to authenticate.

John 5:31-32, “If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is not trustworthy. There is another who testifies about me, and I know that the testimony he gives about me is true.”

Can you show me a single place where anyone but Paul himself calls him an apostle?



Peter calls Paul "brother"

2 Peter 3:15 called Paul, “our dear brother Paul” Not “apostle” Paul, notice the difference in usage here:

Acts 15:22-23, " 22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:"

The original greek makes distinctions.

Strong's Greek English Morphology


1125 [e] γράψαντες


grapsantes having written V-APA-NMP


1223 [e] διὰ


dia by Prep


5495 [e] χειρὸς


cheiros [the] hand N-GFS


846 [e] αὐτῶν


autōn of them: PPro-GM3P


3588 [e] Οἱ


Hoi The Art-NMP


652 [e] ἀπόστολοι


apostoloi apostles N-NMP





2532 [e] καὶ


kai and Conj


3588 [e] οἱ


hoi the Art-NMP


4245 [e] πρεσβύτεροι


presbyteroi elders, Adj-NMP-C





80 [e] ἀδελφοὶ


adelphoi brothers, N-NMP





3588 [e] Τοῖς


tois To those Art-DMP


2596 [e] κατὰ


kata in Prep


3588 [e] τὴν


tēn - Art-AFS


490 [e] Ἀντιόχειαν


Antiocheian Antioch N-AFS


2532 [e] καὶ


kai and Conj


4947 [e] Συρίαν


Syrian Syria N-AFS


2532 [e] καὶ


kai and Conj


2791 [e] Κιλικίαν


Kilikian Cilicia, N-AFS


80 [e] ἀδελφοῖς





adelphois brothers N-DMP


3588 [e] τοῖς


tois - Art-DMP


1537 [e] ἐξ


ex among Prep


1484 [e] ἐθνῶν


ethnōn the Gentiles: N-GNP





5463 [e] Χαίρειν.


chairein Greetings. V-PNA

Matthew 13:55-56, " 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

So these are the passage I am aware of:

Mark 3:20-21, " 20 Then he went home, and the crowd gathered again, so that they could not even eat. 21 And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.”

John 7:1-5, " 1 After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. 2 Now the Jews' Feast of Booths was at hand. 3 So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. 4 For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” 5 For not even his brothers believed in him."

Possibly I have missed one. Do you know of any that mention James by name as not believeing or following Jesus?

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

So is it may, or is it shall? If may then that would suggest that it would be possible that the heaven and earth could pass away whereas shall is indicative of heaven and earth will pass away.

If one holds that God created the heavens and the earth by his word then then how could they pass away?

The word does say they will pass:

Revelation 21:1-2, " 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Psalms 102:25-27, “You did found the earth of old, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish, but You remain; and all of them grow old like a garment; You change them like a coat, And they are changed. But You are the same, And Your years have no end.”

 

[Marcelo]

Marcelo said: But Paul had authority to speak on behalf of the Lord, the apostle's words are actually Jesus' words.

Jesus taught obedience to the law of Moses, whereas Paul taught salvation by grace through faith apart from the Law. Paul does not contradict Jesus, he teaches a new doctrine applicable to the New Covenant era.

Luke 16:16-17, " 16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.

John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Revelation 14:12-13, " 12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

We both agree that Jesus and Paul taught different gospels, but I believe Paul preached new doctrines (revealed to him by the risen Jesus) and you think he preached a false gospel. Since you don't acknowledge Paul as an apostle, and therefore your only interest is to prove that the law of Moses is still in force, I'll use Jesus' words to demonstrate that the Law is no longer in effect.

till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle will pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Is there a single creature on earth who keeps all 613 ordinances of the law of Moses?

I have never heard of anyone who even attempts to keep all 613 Mitzvot; not even religious Jews do that. The zealots of the Law use an intricate "theology" to separate effective ordinances from obsolete ones and this "theology" is by no means approved by God.

The law of Moses was designed for a specific nation and for a specific period of time. Today it is impossible to keep all the ordinances of the law of Moses and that means ALL has already been fulfilled.

 

[Absolutely]

i think this might be the "only Paul please no one but Paul" vs "everyone but Paul please not Paul" thread.
not sure; haven't read it all.

Lol

 

[Absolutely]

Are you a Law Zealot?

We break it when we sin,but it has no basis on our standing.

 

[Chester]

Because he was then only speaking to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

Jesus made it a point to raise Paul specifically to reach out to me.

You can have that viewpoint if you like - for myself - I find it a joy endeavoring to live as Jesus taught.

 

[Deade]

this is interesting verse. what lots are these? like dice for us or what?

We can use any number of devices as long as we acknowledge it was God that caused the outcome. We could do the short straw or the black marble. Have you not ever had a time when the Lord would not commune with you by normal means?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TDW: And what about 1 Corinthians 12:28-29 ["hath set - G5087 - tithemi"] (in view of what Ephesians 1:20-23 explicitly states [re WHEN]);

I knew I was forgetting something that I'd intended to add to the above portion...
I meant to add, along with the Ephesians reference above:
Ephesians 4:8 -
"Therefore it says: "Having ascended on high, He led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men [G444 - anthropois - people (plural)]."

I believe the "gifts" spoken of here are not: I give Joe the gift of "apostle"[-ship], I give Bill the gift of "prophet," I give Harold the gift of "evangelism," I give Arnold the gift of "pastor-teacher"... Instead, I believe this verse is stating that "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastor-teachers" [individuals] are the gifts He gave (having ascended on high) to people[/mankind] (for their benefit). See the difference, here?

I believe there are two ways the word "apostle" is used in the NT (epistles).

Consider the following:

G652 - apostle / messenger

--Ephesians 4:8,11 - ['having ascended on High'] He gave gifts [meaning, the individuals themselves] to men/mankind/people... apostles [G652]... prophets... [etc]

--John 13:16 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor a messenger [G652 - apostolos] greater than the one having sent him."

--2 Corinthians 8:23 - "Whether as regards Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker for you; or our brothers, they are apostles [G652 - apostoloi; kjv - messengers] of the churches, the glory of Christ."

--1 Corinthians 12:28-29a - "27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members in particular. [see Eph1:20-23 WHEN!] 28 And some indeed God has appointed in the church, first apostles [G652], secondly prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers?..." [who was "verifying" all these assignments, in the first century?? how do we know?? were they all "fakes"?? ]

--Philippians 2:25 - "25 Now I esteemed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger [G652 - apostolon] and minister to my need, 26 since he was longing after you all and being deeply distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27 And indeed he was sick, nearly unto death. But God had mercy on him, and not on him alone but also on me, that I should not have sorrow upon sorrow."

--Hebrews 3:1 - "Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, carefully consider Jesus, the apostle [G652 - Apostolon] and high priest of our confession"

--1 Corinthians 5:9-10 - "For I am the least of the apostles [G652 - apostolōn], who am not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me has not been void. Rather, I toiled more abundantly than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me."

--1 Thessalonians 2:6 - "nor seeking glory from men, nor from you, nor from others, though having authority with weight [/basis] to be, as apostles [G652 - apostoloi] of Christ [/or, 'as Christ's apostles' as some versions have it]."


Additionally, the phrase "apostles and prophets" (written in this order) refers to the NT "apostles and prophets" (like Eph4:11 and 1Cor12:28-29 are referring to, above--you'd have to convince me that Eph4:11 and 1Cor12:28-29 are not saying what I see them saying [again, in view of Eph1:20-23 WHEN... which passage, many do not care to acknowledge])

 

[Guojing]

One the particular post was not about James, but I do have a question about this to you, maybe you can show me something I have missed.



Matthew 13:55-56, " 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

So these are the passage I am aware of:

Mark 3:20-21, " 20 Then he went home, and the crowd gathered again, so that they could not even eat. 21 And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.”

John 7:1-5, " 1 After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. 2 Now the Jews' Feast of Booths was at hand. 3 So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. 4 For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” 5 For not even his brothers believed in him."

Possibly I have missed one. Do you know of any that mention James by name as not believeing or following Jesus?

When he believe In Jesus was not clearly stated

Scripture named the 12 apostles, and James the just was not among them. That is clear

You are the first I met who actually claimed he is an apostle

 

[garee]

When he believe In Jesus was not clearly stated

Scripture named the 12 apostles, and James the just was not among them. That is clear

You are the first I met who actually claimed he is an apostle

Scripture names a remnant 12 of the 27 listed new testament apostles.

The 12 were put aside to be used in a parable in Revelation 21. All men that are led by the Spirit of Christ bring the gospel, prophecy, They are apostles "sent ones". Abel the first recorded apostle and martyr.

 

[garee]

I believe there are two ways the word "apostle" is used in the NT (epistles).

Consider the following:

G652 - apostle / messenger

--Ephesians 4:8,11 - ['having ascended on High'] He gave gifts [meaning, the individuals themselves] to men/mankind/people... apostles [G652]... prophets... [etc]

--John 13:16 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor a messenger [G652 - apostolos] greater than the one having sent him."

--2 Corinthians 8:23 - "Whether as regards Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker for you; or our brothers, they are apostles [G652 - apostoloi; kjv - messengers] of the churches, the glory of Christ."

--1 Corinthians 12:28-29a - "27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members in particular. [see Eph1:20-23 WHEN!] 28 And some indeed God has appointed in the church, first apostles [G652], secondly prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers?..." [who was "verifying" all these assignments, in the first century?? how do we know?? were they all "fakes"?? ]

--Philippians 2:25 - "25 Now I esteemed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger [G652 - apostolon] and minister to my need, 26 since he was longing after you all and being deeply distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27 And indeed he was sick, nearly unto death. But God had mercy on him, and not on him alone but also on me, that I should not have sorrow upon sorrow."

--Hebrews 3:1 - "Therefore, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, carefully consider Jesus, the apostle [G652 - Apostolon] and high priest of our confession"

--1 Corinthians 5:9-10 - "For I am the least of the apostles [G652 - apostolōn], who am not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me has not been void. Rather, I toiled more abundantly than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me."

--1 Thessalonians 2:6 - "nor seeking glory from men, nor from you, nor from others, though having authority with weight [/basis] to be, as apostles [G652 - apostoloi] of Christ [/or, 'as Christ's apostles' as some versions have it]."


Additionally, the phrase "apostles and prophets" (written in this order) refers to the NT "apostles and prophets" (like Eph4:11 and 1Cor12:28-29 are referring to, above--you'd have to convince me that Eph4:11 and 1Cor12:28-29 are not saying what I see them saying [again, in view of Eph1:20-23 WHEN... which passage, many do not care to acknowledge])

I would agree the great commission. . . sending out apostles two by two with the gospel of salvation the word of God, prophecy .. . as sons of God messengers (Angel)

We should be careful when entertaining an apostle .They might have a message or need one from us. Iron sharpens iron in that way

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

 

[Guojing]

Is "I don't know" a viable answer?

Most people who believe that Paul preached exactly the same gospel as the gospel of the kingdom, tend to lean towards believing that God already planned Paul to replace Judas.

if not they tend to believe that Paul was meant to replaced James who was put to death in acts 12

 

[garee]

Because he was then only speaking to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

Jesus made it a point to raise Paul specifically to reach out to me.

Where are the lost sheep ? How will we know DNA? Geanalolgy that ended with Jesus?

Inward Jew born of the Spirit of Christ? Outward Jew of the flesh?

 

[Guojing]

Where are the lost sheep ? How will we know DNA? Geanalolgy that ended with Jesus?

Inward Jew born of the Spirit of Christ? Outward Jew of the flesh?

I dunno any Jewish friends but they might be able to still tell you which of the 12 tribes they came from

 

[garee]

Most people who believe that Paul preached exactly the same gospel as the gospel of the kingdom, tend to lean towards believing that God already planned Paul to replace Judas.

if not they tend to believe that Paul was meant to replaced James who was put to death in acts 12

Actually he used Judas a marked man one who falls backward under the judgement with God with Matthias . to complete that 12 . And the other description 12 of the same bride. He removed the tribe of Dan to symbolize the same. . those who fall backward in Judgment .

12 was the number he was shooting for. What do you think 12 represents?

Both Dan and Judah are removed from the description of the bride in Revelation 21.

Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall "fall backward".

John 18:5-6 King James Version (KJV) They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

The power of. . . I Am He .Therefore indicating a curse..

No lost Tribes all accounted for.