Did Jesus and Paul teach differnt gospels?
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You just got a taste of what the mental grace/greasy grace/anti obedience members here react to.
Obedience is bad according to them.
They reframe obedience in the christian walk as "oh no no no we are not saved by works"
...even though nobody says we are. All obedience to them is saved by works.
It is so misaligned. The opposite is what is normal.
Obedience is the normal christian life. Disobedience should never be found in that my desire should be one of pleasing my Father.
Should i sin i have an advocate. Jesus Christ.
Obedience is bad according to them.
They reframe obedience in the christian walk as "oh no no no we are not saved by works"
...even though nobody says we are. All obedience to them is saved by works.
It is so misaligned. The opposite is what is normal.
Obedience is the normal christian life. Disobedience should never be found in that my desire should be one of pleasing my Father.
Should i sin i have an advocate. Jesus Christ.
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You are treading on DANGEROUS WATERS. Not only in this post but many others on this thread you are working to UNDERMINE the authority of the Apostle Paul and by extention, of 2 Peter, Acts and Luke. (Because these record Paul in a positive light).
NOT A GOOD IDEA to be doing. Sowing DOUBT and DISBELIEF amongst the body of Christ. WE KNOW who you are working for. Its fine to discuss doubts but the way you are advertising this on an OPEN FORUM that any NEW CHRISTIAN can possibly read, you are OPENING THEM UP for deception and making a way for them to REJECT largest sections of the New Testament and bringing doubt to the CANON of the Bible and historic Christianity in general.
I FORBID YOU from doing that, and I order you to return to the BIBLICAL FAITH at once, that was ONCE delivered to the saints, and that faith includes the teachings we can get from the APOSTLE PAUL, and many of the GLORIOUS truths he gave us through God's grace!
There is NO problems with Paul and no contradictions whatsoever if you UNDERSTAND it correctly. Paul's letters are sent to churches, usually correcting false understanding or false doctrine or wrong behavior and setting them straight. If you read what Paul preached to the unsaved in the book of Acts, it is the EXACT same message as it was since the dawn of time: REPENTANCE and FAITH. Acts 20:21, same again in Acts 26.
I suggest the MODERATORS of the chat take note and REMOVE these posts of yours sowing DOUBT on the Apostleship of Paul, I dont believe this should be allowed on a Christian forum, to try to discredit largest chunks of the NT. ESPECIALLY considering the non-registered people and newly saved people who might be reading. And dont tell me you aint tryna do that, I can clearly see this anti-paul agenda, I am dumb but I AINT THAT DUMB! [With that being said, I DID NOT report any of your posts, NOR WILL I ever report anyone's posts. WE dont play that where im from!]
NOT A GOOD IDEA to be doing. Sowing DOUBT and DISBELIEF amongst the body of Christ. WE KNOW who you are working for. Its fine to discuss doubts but the way you are advertising this on an OPEN FORUM that any NEW CHRISTIAN can possibly read, you are OPENING THEM UP for deception and making a way for them to REJECT largest sections of the New Testament and bringing doubt to the CANON of the Bible and historic Christianity in general.
I FORBID YOU from doing that, and I order you to return to the BIBLICAL FAITH at once, that was ONCE delivered to the saints, and that faith includes the teachings we can get from the APOSTLE PAUL, and many of the GLORIOUS truths he gave us through God's grace!
There is NO problems with Paul and no contradictions whatsoever if you UNDERSTAND it correctly. Paul's letters are sent to churches, usually correcting false understanding or false doctrine or wrong behavior and setting them straight. If you read what Paul preached to the unsaved in the book of Acts, it is the EXACT same message as it was since the dawn of time: REPENTANCE and FAITH. Acts 20:21, same again in Acts 26.
I suggest the MODERATORS of the chat take note and REMOVE these posts of yours sowing DOUBT on the Apostleship of Paul, I dont believe this should be allowed on a Christian forum, to try to discredit largest chunks of the NT. ESPECIALLY considering the non-registered people and newly saved people who might be reading. And dont tell me you aint tryna do that, I can clearly see this anti-paul agenda, I am dumb but I AINT THAT DUMB! [With that being said, I DID NOT report any of your posts, NOR WILL I ever report anyone's posts. WE dont play that where im from!]
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MANY BLUNDERS in this one. For one when Paul says we know him no longer after the flesh he simply means to say to the Corinthians that WE DONT SEE JESUS here in the flesh right now, HE HAS RISEN and is in heaven now.... You are quoting JOhn 14:23-26 as if NOTHING NEW can be revealed, yet Jesus tells us that there is MORE TO COME John 16:13 for example and in other verses.
Lets try to QUICKLY go through these verses you tried to use to discredit the Apostle Paul:
This is simply taken out of context, Paul is not disobeying the command to baptize, he speaks of baptism in his letters, Galatians 3, Romans 6, buried with Him in baptism, im sure you know the verses but dont care, since you want to discredit the Apostle Paul? Paul here is addressing believers who say I am of Paul I am of Sylas I am of this and bickering over WHO baptized them.
Another FAIL, one is talking after the resurrection, one is talking about before the resurrection, one is talking about God one about Christ. Even the context is different...
More failure to discredit Paul. Pharisees are making this accusation, you are agreeing with them, Jesus was not endorsing their lifestyle but preached REPENTANCE and FAITH. Sick need a physician not the healthy! Paul is writing to the CHURCHES, and saying do not eat with such a one. A CHRISTIAN who is engaged in this immorality, we judge those on the inside of the church. Jesus is not dealing with CHRISTIANS in the CHURCH in Luke 15
One is talking about kings of Israel in the OT, one is talking about rulers in general and in the NT. This is another failure by you to discredit Paul because in your eagerness you forgot that what Paul says in Romans 13, PETER COSIGNS in 1 Peter 2:13. OOPS! Is Peter wrong too?
I coulda been more LONG WINDED but I hope this shows to everyone reading that these so called contradictions I can JAB THROUGH THEM easily just off the top of my head. NO PROBLEMS exist whatsoever people. Dont buy the doubt he is selling!
Lets try to QUICKLY go through these verses you tried to use to discredit the Apostle Paul:
This is simply taken out of context, Paul is not disobeying the command to baptize, he speaks of baptism in his letters, Galatians 3, Romans 6, buried with Him in baptism, im sure you know the verses but dont care, since you want to discredit the Apostle Paul? Paul here is addressing believers who say I am of Paul I am of Sylas I am of this and bickering over WHO baptized them.
Another FAIL, one is talking after the resurrection, one is talking about before the resurrection, one is talking about God one about Christ. Even the context is different...
More failure to discredit Paul. Pharisees are making this accusation, you are agreeing with them, Jesus was not endorsing their lifestyle but preached REPENTANCE and FAITH. Sick need a physician not the healthy! Paul is writing to the CHURCHES, and saying do not eat with such a one. A CHRISTIAN who is engaged in this immorality, we judge those on the inside of the church. Jesus is not dealing with CHRISTIANS in the CHURCH in Luke 15
One is talking about kings of Israel in the OT, one is talking about rulers in general and in the NT. This is another failure by you to discredit Paul because in your eagerness you forgot that what Paul says in Romans 13, PETER COSIGNS in 1 Peter 2:13. OOPS! Is Peter wrong too?
I coulda been more LONG WINDED but I hope this shows to everyone reading that these so called contradictions I can JAB THROUGH THEM easily just off the top of my head. NO PROBLEMS exist whatsoever people. Dont buy the doubt he is selling!
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Yes well Matthew was chosen by Jesus and we have Jesus direct quotes in all 4 Gospels (3 others) saying Matt was chosen and the book of Revelation (Jesus words through chosen John) saying the 12 names are on the foundation of the kingdom. Once we can authenticate Jesus, or He authenticates Himself by fulfilling prophecy I guess, anyone He testifies of is authentic. But some one can't say "Jesus chose me" Jesus has to say it directly or it is second hand witness.
Mark 2:13-14, " 13 And He went out again by the sea, and all the crowd was coming to Him, and He taught them. 14 And passing by, He saw Lĕvi the son of Alphai sitting at the tax office, and said to him, “Follow Me.” And having risen he followed Him.
Revelation 21:14, “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Mark 2:13-14, " 13 And He went out again by the sea, and all the crowd was coming to Him, and He taught them. 14 And passing by, He saw Lĕvi the son of Alphai sitting at the tax office, and said to him, “Follow Me.” And having risen he followed Him.
Revelation 21:14, “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Wonderful verses making one self-reflect, to principles I never want to forget.
One thing however, it is Paul saying "Jesus appeared to me and told me"
In the gospels we have Jesus direct words and Him literally choosing disciples.
Jesus said "my words while still with you"
John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
and if the holy spirit "brings those words to rememberance"
why then is Paul's doctrine so different than Jesus doctrine?
One thing however, it is Paul saying "Jesus appeared to me and told me"
In the gospels we have Jesus direct words and Him literally choosing disciples.
Jesus said "my words while still with you"
John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
and if the holy spirit "brings those words to rememberance"
why then is Paul's doctrine so different than Jesus doctrine?
You are seriously in error regarding Paul.
1. Christ testified of his apostleship and that is clearly stated.
2. The apostles in Jerusalem fully accepted his apostleship.
3. Peter particularly confirmed that all of Paul's epistles were equivalent to Scripture.
4. How could Paul come in his own name ad yet become the writer of over half the New Testament?
1. Christ testified of his apostleship and that is clearly stated.
2. The apostles in Jerusalem fully accepted his apostleship.
3. Peter particularly confirmed that all of Paul's epistles were equivalent to Scripture.
4. How could Paul come in his own name ad yet become the writer of over half the New Testament?
not speculating; just establishing a line of inquiry for FollowtheShepherd's sake.
it goes like this is:
is Judas' name on the foundation, in re: Revelation 21:14 ?
if no, then who? Matthais or Paul?
historical evidence ((and the accepted canon of scripture)) indicates Paul functionally filled the role.
if it ought to be Matthais, i'm interested in hearing more about him, and the question arises, why is he never mentioned again in scripture, but so much is said of Paul?
it goes like this is:
is Judas' name on the foundation, in re: Revelation 21:14 ?
if no, then who? Matthais or Paul?
historical evidence ((and the accepted canon of scripture)) indicates Paul functionally filled the role.
if it ought to be Matthais, i'm interested in hearing more about him, and the question arises, why is he never mentioned again in scripture, but so much is said of Paul?
IOW, you trust the entirety of the epistle to the Hebrews (though not written personally by Jesus, and was written after His death/resurrection and when He was in Heaven) because of what is written in Luke 16:16-17, “The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached [...]"... how can you tell that that one sentence in Luke 16 carries all the meaning that the Hebrews' "change/changes[2] [in the Law]" covers (since Jesus Himself wasn't here to "say the words" [like, in red 
] that are recorded in Hebrews)?
See what I mean? Why trust this one? How could one tell that THAT is really what Jesus meant by what was stated in Lk16:16-17 [alone]?? Comparing them isn't quite coming through to that extent, if you were to ask a random person on the street (having a general familiarity with the Bible). Tell me how YOU are convinced by this, in particular (in view of your other "questions" regarding what was recorded following His death/resurrection/ascension/exaltation). How do you know the writer of Hebrews was "in" ("in the know"/an "official")?
] that are recorded in Hebrews)?See what I mean? Why trust this one? How could one tell that THAT is really what Jesus meant by what was stated in Lk16:16-17 [alone]?? Comparing them isn't quite coming through to that extent, if you were to ask a random person on the street (having a general familiarity with the Bible). Tell me how YOU are convinced by this, in particular (in view of your other "questions" regarding what was recorded following His death/resurrection/ascension/exaltation). How do you know the writer of Hebrews was "in" ("in the know"/an "official")?
I've heard certain people (particular those who attend the church of Christ) misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally "confess with their mouth."
Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.
John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people in Matthew 7:22-23 were not true converts.
We must not confuse the gospel that Paul preached (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; Ephesians 1:13) and came to him through a revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) which in other ages was unknown and was still a "mystery" (Ephesians 3:1-9; 6:19; Colossians 1:26-27; 4:3) with everything that Jesus taught in the 4 Gospel accounts: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.
Repentance and faith in Christ are two sides to the same coin and are in separable in obtaining salvation. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
You say that you agree works do not save out of one side of your mouth, but out of the other side of your mouth, I'm hearing something different. You are quoting a lot of the same verses that people who do teach salvation by works (like Roman Catholics, Mormons and SDA's) quote. You put a heavy emphasis, specifically on the words of Jesus in the 4 gospel account that involve keeping His commandments, works etc.. You don't seem to put very much emphasis on the writings of the apostle Paul, which is raising a red flag. Are you in involved in some type of Hebrew Roots movement?
After a casual reading of the sheep and goats, this parable "on the surface" may seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works, yet all scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. *That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of the imputed righteousness which is of God by faith (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition or means of, obtaining salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works that are a manifestation of "faith by which one receives eternal life." Sheep represent believers, while goats represent unbelievers. Do you find it strange that the righteous asked, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You?' Jesus answered them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.
Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.
John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people in Matthew 7:22-23 were not true converts.
We must not confuse the gospel that Paul preached (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; Ephesians 1:13) and came to him through a revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) which in other ages was unknown and was still a "mystery" (Ephesians 3:1-9; 6:19; Colossians 1:26-27; 4:3) with everything that Jesus taught in the 4 Gospel accounts: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.
Repentance and faith in Christ are two sides to the same coin and are in separable in obtaining salvation. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
You say that you agree works do not save out of one side of your mouth, but out of the other side of your mouth, I'm hearing something different. You are quoting a lot of the same verses that people who do teach salvation by works (like Roman Catholics, Mormons and SDA's) quote. You put a heavy emphasis, specifically on the words of Jesus in the 4 gospel account that involve keeping His commandments, works etc.. You don't seem to put very much emphasis on the writings of the apostle Paul, which is raising a red flag. Are you in involved in some type of Hebrew Roots movement?
After a casual reading of the sheep and goats, this parable "on the surface" may seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works, yet all scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. *That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of the imputed righteousness which is of God by faith (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition or means of, obtaining salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works that are a manifestation of "faith by which one receives eternal life." Sheep represent believers, while goats represent unbelievers. Do you find it strange that the righteous asked, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You?' Jesus answered them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.