Is Addiction the Sin of Idolatry, or is it a disease?

[calibob]

So do you believe that God delivers from sin or a program?

-Do you see drunkenness and drug taking as you would see murder, theft, adultery etc.

Do these sins like Murder, theft or Adultery need to be helped by a 12 step program as well. Some people may struggle with these problems.

Were not talking about getting loaded. We are talking about when that has progressed into a full blown mental illness combined with a phenomena of craving for a poison to our bodies, minds and spirit. That is beyond the power of a person to control. They are directions that lead straight to God and the steps helps us uncover the areas we need help with. Plain and simple but not easy.

I'm sure that some people get miraculous instant and permeant healing. But most of ushave to work at it!

 

[Nat2019]

Were not talking about getting loaded. We are talking about when that has progressed into a full blown mental illness combined with a phenomena of craving for a poison to our bodies, minds and spirit. That is beyond the power of a person to control. They are directions that lead straight to God and the steps helps us uncover the areas we need help with. Plain and simple but not easy.

I'm sure that some people get miraculous instant and permeant healing. But most of ushave to work at it!

Apparently thieving "Klaptomania" is also a mental illness. Is there a 12 step program for it. Some people cant control the impulse to have another person's property....

 

[Nat2019]

I cried out to God for help and was relieved pretty much immediately of the desire to use. I did not believe in that God at the time nor did I come to believe for quite a few years after. In the mean time, the program and various 12 step fellowships helped me change my life for the better, immensely, and encouraged my seeking. Many meetings have the 12 steps prominently displayed somewhere in the room, wherein God is mentioned eight times. Claiming the steps do not promote a turning to God is sheer ignorance.

Are bible verses in these 8 steps?

 

[Nat2019]

I cried out to God for help and was relieved pretty much immediately of the desire to use. I did not believe in that God at the time nor did I come to believe for quite a few years after. In the mean time, the program and various 12 step fellowships helped me change my life for the better, immensely, and encouraged my seeking. Many meetings have the 12 steps prominently displayed somewhere in the room, wherein God is mentioned eight times. Claiming the steps do not promote a turning to God is sheer ignorance.

Does the 12 step program have these verses-

Luke 13:3 New International Version (NIV)
3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Mark 1:15
And saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

2 Timothy 2:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

*Is turning from wickedness part of the steps?.

 

[Nat2019]

Does the 12 step program have these verses-

Luke 13:3 New International Version (NIV)
3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Mark 1:15
And saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

2 Timothy 2:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

*Is turning from wickedness part of the steps?.

Anyway why would unbelievers want to get better by scripture. So if this program is targeted at unbelievers, the bible would have no value to them. It doesn't make sense as to why someone would make a program that has God spoken about without repentance involved. A person need's to get saved first in order to apply the word of God to their lives. Its strange to me. Just like this mental health group I went to that spoke about God. Unbelievers praying to "A" God. It could be any God without the bible. So I left that group of non Christians applying God in a program of "steps".

 

[Magenta]

2 Corinthians 12:9

 

[Magenta]

2 Corinthians 9:8-9

 

[Nat2019]

2 Corinthians 9:8-9

Are there any that tell a person to turn away from wickedness, live holy and be like Christ. Ones that dont focus on "Grace" only. Because if we just use "some" scriptures in the bible and not the rest we are not getting a full understanding of how to change... Even an ungodly person may think because it's all about Gods grace, that they dont need to live in accordance with scripture and that they dont have to live like Christ or turn away from wickedness.

 

[Magenta]

Are there any that tell a person to turn away from wickedness, live holy and be like Christ. Ones that dont focus on "Grace" only. Because if we just use "some" scriptures in the bible and not the rest we are not getting a full understanding of how to change... Even an ungodly person may think because it's all about Gods grace, that they dont need to live in accordance with scripture and that they dont have to live like Christ or turn away from wickedness.

There are over thirty one thousand (31,000 +) verses in the Bible, and I can be quite forgetful but I do recall that mine says that God draws us with loving kindness.

 

[CharliRenee]

Some ppl may not need AA or any other intervention or help to tackle addiction. Some ppl, believers or not, have found help through programs like salvation army and AA. Some have found God and were able to stop cold turkey.

If a person has a medical condition and they receive medical help, most would never say...why didn't you just believe in God more, pray more? Yes a diabetic should pray and trust God, but they should also eat sensibly and take insulin to stabilize their blood sugars.

I just think it is not fair or reasonable to assume God isn't able to use places like AA to help people. I think addiction is a monster that is dealt with differently with each person dealing with this beast. I agree, God is able to intervene and take the wheel immediately but I think in most cases ppl have to fight like crazy to get sober. Even if one has to work hard, doesn't mean that God isn't involved. Actually, probably the opposite.

 

[Nat2019]

There are over thirty one thousand (31,000 +) verses in the Bible, and I can be quite forgetful but I do recall that mine says that God draws us with loving kindness.

I guess we have a very different view on this subject. Some consider substance abusing a sin that needs to be spiritually dealt with and some believe substance abusing is an illness requiring medical intervention. We all have different ideas about this subject, but it doesnt mean I dont believe in Gods kindness aswell. I just think Grace is being emphasized over everything else on this site. The "hyper grace" moment. I believe all scriptures should have an impact in our lives not just the positive ones that make us feel good. 😉

 

[Nat2019]

Some ppl may not need AA or any other intervention or help to tackle addiction. Some ppl, believers or not, have found help through programs like salvation army and AA. Some have found God and were able to stop cold turkey.

If a person has a medical condition and they receive medical help, most would never say...why didn't you just believe in God more, pray more? Yes a diabetic should pray and trust God, but they should also eat sensibly and take insulin to stabilize their blood sugars.

I just think it is not fair or reasonable to assume God isn't able to use places like AA to help people. I think addiction is a monster that is dealt with differently with each person dealing with this beast. I agree, God is able to intervene and take the wheel immediately but I think in most cases ppl have to fight like crazy to get sober. Even if one has to work hard, doesn't mean that God isn't involved. Actually, probably the opposite.

I just want to say that because I have different beliefs on this thread it doesnt mean I am unfair or unreasonable. I dont say that about others on here with different ideas on the subject. I am stating my views and they are stating theirs. If this site cant handle any kind of difference in opinions, it should be stated in the joining conditions, Hopefully I won't get banned for these comments. I have seen my inability to Express my beliefs on here just because I have different ones. These are my own personal beliefs on this subject, just like other people have them. So everyone that has different beliefs is unfair or unreasonable.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

But I am glad to here things
Hi UnitedwithChrist I am sorry but I dont agree because only a relationship with Christ can help our "sin issues" alone. Friendship cant save us from Sin only Jesus can and some people around the world dont have any fellowship or a church to go to. I myself only have my mother to talk to about God, but i dont attend church or any other gatherings because I have different beliefs doctrinally and dont follow the OSAS doctrine. I used to have many friends and attended churches and bible studies regularly while with OSAS, but this never had the ability to stop me sinning.

Jesus is the answer and not church fellowship. We are told to not neglect getting together and to encourage each other YES, but not everyone has other Christians and some people are persecuted for their faith in the world where they dont have anyone. Paul the apostle was in prison, and probably others in the bible but sin wasnt thriving in them while in isolation. John the Baptist was in prison aswell. I think we do need encouragement from one another, but it shouldn't be the foundation of stopping us to sin.

Thanks for your reply 😁

I wouldn't agree with this. Scripture says to confess your sins one to another, that you may be healed (James 5:16).

The design of the Christian life is to be in community with other believers. One can't read the Scriptures after Pentecost without coming to this conclusion.

I realize there are difficult situations such as persecuted countries and being a shut-in. Obviously God gives more grace to those individuals to help them in their situation.

However, fellowship is part of the design and the way that the Christian life works best. Christianity is all about community. That is one of the problems with forums and chat rooms. There is a danger that some will get the idea that this is actually a real fellowship.

I would also challenge you to reconsider your position about doctrinal issues. For example, I don't believe everything that my particular fellowship teaches. However, it is part of God's design for us to learn to be in fellowship, even with those we disagree with.

By the way, the type of fellowship I am describing isn't talking with people a few minutes before and after services. It is more intense than that. I am talking about small groups where the individuals are actually involved with one another, and visiting each other during times of sickness, etcetera. Perhaps you never had that type of situation.

Regarding Paul, he traveled with fellow Christians and even while in prison, there were believers around him. How do you think his letters got delivered?

Additionally, I'm not saying that fellowship will STOP SINNING. But, I believe it will help our relational needs to be fulfilled. The believer has a personal communion with God and Christ, but he also has the church community through which God works. If one's relational needs are fulfilled, in many cases that deals with a lot of the issues related to sin.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

They turned to God, just as everyone who recognizes the true nature of their plight does... as the 12 steps promote. I already said that

It works for millions and millions of people whether you are persuaded or not. God gave us a blue-print also. Do you think people need absolutely no guidance whatsoever?

Meeting around a particular sin? Gosh, the meetings I attend, the general format for speakers centers on sharing their experience, strength, and hope, and many remain to help others, to be there when the newcomer comes in looking for a solution to their problems and an end to their pain and harming others. Do you go to church? You have just said it is a not a good idea to associate with sinners, and churches are full of them. The pastors and elders at my church openly acknowledge their sins, and it is a Biblical principle to confess our sins to each other.

The rooms are a mix of people, just as churches often are. You continually overlook the Biblical basis of the program. Please educate yourself Click!

I am not sure if you understood my point. I said I didn't know if it was a good idea for people to identify with a particular sin, and to meet with others who have the same sin issue. One of the reasons is due to the susceptibility for others with similar weaknesses to tempt us.

Let me give you an example. Suppose there is a Christian recovery group dealing with believers struggling with homosexual desire. Well, automatically everyone knows who is homosexual within the group. I have heard of cases where both LEADERS and PARTICIPANTS have found their boyfriends or girlfriends at such meetings.

Additionally, the participants are identified with each other, and this has caused church members to feel different about them.

Is it healthier for individuals to separate on this basis, or to integrate within the congregation, and associate with the wide variety of individuals within the congregation?

By the way, please don't distort my words and claim that I think it is best to segregate from sinners, as if I think I am sinless. Obviously I don't believe that. I just don't think it's necessarily the best for people struggling with a particular sin to be segregated from others.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Step 2 came to believe that a power greater then ourselves could restore us to sanity. I came to believe in Jesus
Step 3 made a decision to turn our will and our lives to the care of God. I asked Jesus

There are many that do. The Big Book is not a bible So I read the Bible every day too. but the big book is targeted at persons with addictive disorders that are beyond self control. We must each find God another way because by it's own charter it 's to remain non political, non religious and non professional. It is left up to each individual to come to believe on their own terms. AA & NA don't want to compete with church. Religion is not their business (*) Study and especially prayer / meditation are always encouraged. It is a spiritual program, not religious one that grows by attraction not promotion.

Being that it would be illegal to include going to X ammount of meetings as a term combined with recovery programs, probation and parole agencies it would be illegal to force anyone to attend 'religious services' So remaining officially agnostic allows more public support and probably saves lives. Those with the desire to seek God will find him and the program encourages all of us to seek God!

I am not saying there is no value in such programs for the unsaved, and perhaps some will become saved through it, especially unbelievers.

However, how can the unsaved person participate in spiritual life? Ephesians 2:1-10 says the unsaved are spiritually dead in sins and trespasses.

If I had an issue with drugs or alcohol, I'd go to a Celebrate Recovery program, or something similar, where the people involved are believers. However, I'd likely get involved in a church small group first.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I'd rather encourage people to go to God first as well as the bible. Because we need to view the whole bible to be renewed in the spirit of our minds. Not just view 12 steps.

I agree, but would add "fellowship". That is part of the design for God's people.

 

[Nat2019]

I agree, but would add "fellowship". That is part of the design for God's people.

Fellowship is important too. But God first😊 We do need encouragement from one another and to confess our sins with one another so we are healed.

 

[Nat2019]

I wouldn't agree with this. Scripture says to confess your sins one to another, that you may be healed (James 5:16).

The design of the Christian life is to be in community with other believers. One can't read the Scriptures after Pentecost without coming to this conclusion.

I realize there are difficult situations such as persecuted countries and being a shut-in. Obviously God gives more grace to those individuals to help them in their situation.

However, fellowship is part of the design and the way that the Christian life works best. Christianity is all about community. That is one of the problems with forums and chat rooms. There is a danger that some will get the idea that this is actually a real fellowship.

I would also challenge you to reconsider your position about doctrinal issues. For example, I don't believe everything that my particular fellowship teaches. However, it is part of God's design for us to learn to be in fellowship, even with those we disagree with.

By the way, the type of fellowship I am describing isn't talking with people a few minutes before and after services. It is more intense than that. I am talking about small groups where the individuals are actually involved with one another, and visiting each other during times of sickness, etcetera. Perhaps you never had that type of situation.

Regarding Paul, he traveled with fellow Christians and even while in prison, there were believers around him. How do you think his letters got delivered?

Additionally, I'm not saying that fellowship will STOP SINNING. But, I believe it will help our relational needs to be fulfilled. The believer has a personal communion with God and Christ, but he also has the church community through which God works. If one's relational needs are fulfilled, in many cases that deals with a lot of the issues related to sin.

I think we have different ideas on this subject but I do believe we need fellowship with those who are of "one" mind with us biblically because if they are not we cannot get the encouragement through sound teaching. I wont ever reconsider my doctrinal position I used to follow OSAS but not anymore. I was in a bible study a few years ago with those who were not like minded in doctrine, I chose not to continue with this group of people because they were preaching differently than what I believe. If I was to accept anyone in bible study, I would have to fellowship with JWs, mormons, Catholics etc. But we wouldn't see eye to eye on the bible and arguments would start etc. I am not changing the truths I found about God to suit others. Any way I went to alot of churches and I dont agree with them doctrinally. I also thought their was error in them when I was into OSAS. God showed me the truth and I cannot compromise for the sake of others. People may not be perfect but I am looking for those with the same doctrinal ideas. So I still believe fellowship is important..

Thank you for such a diplomatic discussion.

 

[calibob]

It was never stated by magenta or myself that addictive disorders were either spiritual or physical, mind you the brain is as much a physical part of the body as the heart. Psychiatrists are MD's. Most hospitals that specialize in the field require consumers (clients) to attend several meetings a day during treatment. And ongoing meetings in post care also.

I only brought up Calvary Chapel and Melodyland CC because they were venues that provided us with a Christian place to meet, study and fellowship together. As rational, Christ centered recovery groups.

Yes bad people go to meetings too. Pimps, dope dealers and other predators that are looking for desperate people or new customers. They tend to stay away from churches though.

 

[UnderGrace]

I am not sure if you understood my point. One of the reasons is due to the susceptibility for others with similar weaknesses to tempt us.

Let me give you an example. Suppose there is a Christian recovery group dealing with believers struggling with homosexual desire. Well, automatically everyone knows who is homosexual within the group. I have heard of cases where both LEADERS and PARTICIPANTS have found their boyfriends or girlfriends at such meetings.

Additionally, the participants are identified with each other, and this has caused church members to feel different about them.

Is it healthier for individuals to separate on this basis, or to integrate within the congregation, and associate with the wide variety of individuals within the congregation?

By the way, please don't distort my words and claim that I think it is best to segregate from sinners, as if I think I am sinless. Obviously I don't believe that. I just don't think it's necessarily the best for people struggling with a particular sin to be segregated from others.

I said I didn't know if it was a good idea for people to identify with a particular sin, and to meet with others who have the same sin issue.

AA has helped so many people over the years, being with people "who get it" is part of the foundation of why it works.