Is Addiction the Sin of Idolatry, or is it a disease?

[Nat2019]

Anyone can look up the stats on the success rates of AA. In fact, I just did and found this. Give it a look-see. You might learn somethingTurning your will and your life over to the care of God is a one size fits all in many ways. How willing people are to do this is a large determining factor in their success.The program is solidly based on Biblical principles. In fact the prototype for the steps that was expanded by Bill W. and Dr. Bob to 12 were originally developed by evangelical Christians known as the Oxford Group, which itself was founded by Rev. Frank Buchman.

Magenta what if these programs didnt exist. And a person read there bible every instead. Should there be the same success rate

 

[Magenta]

You people are big on programs. What did people do in Jesus's day without these "programs" and psychologists. They would not have had an "excuse" to continue because a program didn't exist.

They turned to God, just as everyone who recognizes the true nature of their plight does... as the 12 steps promote.

 

[Nat2019]

So we agree my friend! When Paul says " I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. " And this could also be the case with an addict that hates himself and what he does. The first "step".

"Godly Sorrow" shouldn't involve self hate, but sorrow towards God concerning our sins. In order to come to repentance a person needs "Godly sorrow"

 

[Magenta]

Magenta what if these programs didnt exist. And a person read there bible every instead. Should there be the same success rate

Expecting non-believers to "read their Bibles" is unrealistic.

 

[Nat2019]

Expecting non-believers to "read their Bibles" is unrealistic.

I am talking about believers. Sorry I meant reading the bible "every day"

 

[Magenta]

I am talking about believers. Sorry I meant reading the bible "every day"

The program was developed to help people establish and maintain a personal relationship with God. It is solidly based on Biblical principles. Helping people make straight their path for the Lord is basic good sense. Hey, they might even have a motto for that, like, first things first. Get Clean. Get sober. Put down the mind and mood altering substances. Stop running. Start praying. Get honest. Be willing. Cultivate an open mind. You seem to have something against the program. Yes, I am a supporter of the 12 steps, and I continue to go to meetings all these years later to carry the message and receive support when I need it also. I did not enter the program as a believer, nor do a lot of people come in singing God's praises. You know what is interesting and rewarding? Watching people put down their hostility toward God and become humble as a result of working the steps. Also, even as a non-believer, I always enjoyed hearing people's God stories. I was not there to listen to people preach at me. I know how it works and what people are like. Not everyone is saved. Some people do try and try and try to get clean and stay sober, and end up in the ground as a result of their disease regardless. If the program helps other people avoid that outcome and learn to live healthy, happy, productive lives as a result of working the steps, I will not knock it.

I will add one thing more: I did not believe in God when I first got clean and sober, but I first got clean and sober after crying out to that God I did not believe in for help. So now I praise the Lord, for He is good, His love endures forever

 

[Nat2019]

No problem Nat 2019. My point only was that its not an "overnight" thing - even when you have seen the light (as Paul did).

“For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.” (Romans 7.19)

That can also sound like an addict in a nutshell. A train wreck, a sinner, a wretch but the good news is that Paul realizes that the good he wants to do is what he is not doing…and he keeps on doing it! The good news here is the fact that he understands that it’s wrong. This is strong evidence that the Holy Spirit is working in him, convicting him of his sin.


I say to you, many addicts KNOW they cannot stop but still want to. These are not laughing in your face saying “so what”? These have no hope until they are convicted of their sin in the first place in their heart.


So the guy you saw “singing at the train station” is no different. At least he is trying. Otherwise you are judging Paul and pointing out his sin as if you have none yourself, when he freely admits “he does what he does not want to do!” How do you know that guy you judged isn't full of remorse and that's why he goes back to the Church time and time again? At least he is trying. Not everyone can overcome their sin overnight - it takes steps on a journey. Even for Paul. Even for people on the AA programme.

The program was developed to help people establish and maintain a personal relationship with God. It is solidly based on Biblical principles. Helping people make straight their path for the Lord is basic good sense. Hey, they might even have a motto for that, like, first things first. Get Clean. Get sober. Put down the mind and mood altering substances. Stop running. Start praying. Get honest. Be willing. Cultivate an open mind. You seem to have something against the program. Yes, I am a supporter of the 12 steps, and I continue to go to meetings all these years later to carry the message and receive support when I need it also. I did not enter the program as a believer, nor do a lot of people come in singing God's praises. You know what is interesting and rewarding? Watching people put down their hostility toward God and become humble as a result of working the steps. Also, even as a non-believer, I always enjoyed hearing people's God stories. I was not there to listen to people preach at me. I know how it works and what people are like. Not everyone is saved. Some people do try and try and try to get clean and stay sober, and end up in the ground as a result of their disease regardless. If the program helps other people avoid that outcome and learn to live healthy, happy, productive lives as a result of working the steps, I will not knock it.

I will add one thing more: I did not believe in God when I first got clean and sober, but I first got clean and sober after crying out to that God I did not believe in for help. So now I praise the Lord, for He is good, His love endures forever

The program was developed to help people establish and maintain a personal relationship with God. It is solidly based on Biblical principles. Helping people make straight their path for the Lord is basic good sense. Hey, they might even have a motto for that, like, first things first. Get Clean. Get sober. Put down the mind and mood altering substances. Stop running. Start praying. Get honest. Be willing. Cultivate an open mind. You seem to have something against the program. Yes, I am a supporter of the 12 steps, and I continue to go to meetings all these years later to carry the message and receive support when I need it also. I did not enter the program as a believer, nor do a lot of people come in singing God's praises. You know what is interesting and rewarding? Watching people put down their hostility toward God and become humble as a result of working the steps. Also, even as a non-believer, I always enjoyed hearing people's God stories. I was not there to listen to people preach at me. I know how it works and what people are like. Not everyone is saved. Some people do try and try and try to get clean and stay sober, and end up in the ground as a result of their disease regardless. If the program helps other people avoid that outcome and learn to live healthy, happy, productive lives as a result of working the steps, I will not knock it.

I will add one thing more: I did not believe in God when I first got clean and sober, but I first got clean and sober after crying out to that God I did not believe in for help. So now I praise the Lord, for He is good, His love endures forever

I just believe we dont need a program in order to help us have a strong relationship with God, neither do I believe we need to be in it to maintain a relationship with God. A relationship with God can be built between him and us alone and we can be changed in the spirit of our minds through his his word alone. Many of these programs are based on worldly ideas and psychology. That sin is considered a disease that's not spiritual. Christian programs that are mixed with psychology. I was going to go in one years ago but they didnt get back to me twice. I saw psychology being taught to the members in a Christian program. Sigmund Freud is actually an atheist and alot of his ideas dont agree with the bible. So psychology and christianity cant be put together.

But we all have different experiences and ideas on this subject. You think it's ok through your experience and I think it's not ok through my experience. A person can remain sober without a program, if they have a deep relationship with Jesus. They may stumble and fall, but God can help them try again.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Did your friend, as a believer in rehab, admit he was powerless over his disease/addiction? Some are unaware that the purpose of the 12 step program has been -from the very start- to help people establish and maintain a personal relationship with the One True God. The AA preamble, which includes a recitation of the twelve steps, read at the opening of many meetings including every single one I have ever attended over the last thirty years where I live, includes the line: "There is One Who has all power. That One is God. May you find Him now." It is from chapter 5 of the AA Big Book

RARELY HAVE WE SEEN a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided that you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it - then you are ready to take certain steps.

At some of these we balked. We thought that we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.

Remember that we deal with alcohol - cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power - that One is God. May you find Him now.

Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.

Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:

1 We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

2 Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3 Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4 Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5 Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6 Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7 Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8 Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9 Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10 Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11 Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12 Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go through with it." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.

Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventures before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:

(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.

So, how did the many different types of sinners, including alcoholics, in the days before these "Anonymous" 12-step programs, deal with their addictions?

I am not persuaded that one needs to submit themselves to a secular 12 point program in order to get past addictions or sins.

Personally, I am not convinced that it is always good to associated with a particular group of people meeting around a particular sin perpetually, as the sin can form part of their identity. I have heard some say that they found their best drinking buddies or sex partners at such a group.

One of the churches I attended had a group called the Mat where people met in individual groups to discuss sin issues but those individuals were not specifically isolated with only sinners of their particular flavor. By the way, I don't think the particular struggle I had was resolved by meeting with this group. The desire for the sin diminished as I delved deeper into communion with God through prayer, study, and other spiritual disciplines.

I do believe that fellowship is important, but I don't think I'd have much in common with unbelievers, who don't share the same common tie with Jesus, but shared the same sin issue.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I just believe we dont need a program in order to help us have a strong relationship with God, neither do I believe we need to be in it to maintain a relationship with God. A relationship with God can be built between him and us alone and we can be changed in the spirit of our minds through his his word alone. Many of these programs are based on worldly ideas and psychology. That sin is considered a disease that's not spiritual. Christian programs that are mixed with psychology. I was going to go in one years ago but they didnt get back to me twice. I saw psychology being taught to the members in a Christian program. Sigmund Freud is actually an atheist and alot of his ideas dont agree with the bible. So psychology and christianity cant be put together.

But we all have different experiences and ideas on this subject. You think it's ok through your experience and I think it's not ok through my experience. A person can remain sober without a program, if they have a deep relationship with Jesus. They may stumble and fall, but God can help them try again.

I agree with this, but I would also add that fellowship is a HUGE part of dealing with sin issues. Most of the addicts that I have talked with are incarcerated, and they go back to the same group of friends, and perpetuate their activities. The two successful ones I've met, as soon as they left incarceration, got involved in Celebrate Recovery and actually are leading discussions within their groups.

I believe that having a tight group of Christian friends is important, because sin thrives in isolation.

You probably would agree but I just wanted to add that. I don't think unbelievers have much to add to believers, though, not when there's something better like Celebrate Recovery.

By the way, Celebrate Recovery can be great or it can be horrible. It depends on how a particular church implements it, and how sound their theology is.

 

[Nat2019]

The program was developed to help people establish and maintain a personal relationship with God. It is solidly based on Biblical principles. Helping people make straight their path for the Lord is basic good sense. Hey, they might even have a motto for that, like, first things first. Get Clean. Get sober. Put down the mind and mood altering substances. Stop running. Start praying. Get honest. Be willing. Cultivate an open mind. You seem to have something against the program. Yes, I am a supporter of the 12 steps, and I continue to go to meetings all these years later to carry the message and receive support when I need it also. I did not enter the program as a believer, nor do a lot of people come in singing God's praises. You know what is interesting and rewarding? Watching people put down their hostility toward God and beUnicome humble as a result of working the steps. Also, even as a non-believer, I always enjoyed hearing people's God stories. I was not there to listen to people preach at me. I know how it works and what people are like. Not everyone is saved. Some people do try and try and try to get clean and stay sober, and end up in the ground as a result of their disease regardless. If the program helps other people avoid that outcome and learn to live healthy, happy, productive lives as a result of working the steps, I will not knock it.

I will add one thing more: I did not believe in God when I first got clean and sober, but I first got clean and sober after crying out to that God I did not believe in for help. So now I praise the Lord, for He is good, His love endures forever

But I am glad to here things

I agree with this, but I would also add that fellowship is a HUGE part of dealing with sin issues. Most of the addicts that I have talked with are incarcerated, and they go back to the same group of friends, and perpetuate their activities. The two successful ones I've met, as soon as they left incarceration, got involved in Celebrate Recovery and actually are leading discussions within their groups.

I believe that having a tight group of Christian friends is important, because sin thrives in isolation.

You probably would agree but I just wanted to add that. I don't think unbelievers have much to add to believers, though, not when there's something better like Celebrate Recovery.

By the way, Celebrate Recovery can be great or it can be horrible. It depends on how a particular church implements it, and how sound their theology is.

Hi UnitedwithChrist I am sorry but I dont agree because only a relationship with Christ can help our "sin issues" alone. Friendship cant save us from Sin only Jesus can and some people around the world dont have any fellowship or a church to go to. I myself only have my mother to talk to about God, but i dont attend church or any other gatherings because I have different beliefs doctrinally and dont follow the OSAS doctrine. I used to have many friends and attended churches and bible studies regularly while with OSAS, but this never had the ability to stop me sinning.

Jesus is the answer and not church fellowship. We are told to not neglect getting together and to encourage each other YES, but not everyone has other Christians and some people are persecuted for their faith in the world where they dont have anyone. Paul the apostle was in prison, and probably others in the bible but sin wasnt thriving in them while in isolation. John the Baptist was in prison aswell. I think we do need encouragement from one another, but it shouldn't be the foundation of stopping us to sin.

Thanks for your reply

 

[Magenta]

So, how did the many different types of sinners, including alcoholics, in the days before these "Anonymous" 12-step programs, deal with their addictions?

They turned to God, just as everyone who recognizes the true nature of their plight does... as the 12 steps promote. I already said that

I am not persuaded that one needs to submit themselves to a secular 12 point program in order to get past addictions or sins.

It works for millions and millions of people whether you are persuaded or not. God gave us a blue-print also. Do you think people need absolutely no guidance whatsoever?

Personally, I am not convinced that it is always good to associated with a particular group of people meeting around a particular sin perpetually, as the sin can form part of their identity. I have heard some say that they found their best drinking buddies or sex partners at such a group.

Meeting around a particular sin? Gosh, the meetings I attend, the general format for speakers centers on sharing their experience, strength, and hope, and many remain to help others, to be there when the newcomer comes in looking for a solution to their problems and an end to their pain and harming others. Do you go to church? You have just said it is a not a good idea to associate with sinners, and churches are full of them. The pastors and elders at my church openly acknowledge their sins, and it is a Biblical principle to confess our sins to each other.

One of the churches I attended had a group called the Mat where people met in individual groups to discuss sin issues but those individuals were not specifically isolated with only sinners of their particular flavor. By the way, I don't think the particular struggle I had was resolved by meeting with this group. The desire for the sin diminished as I delved deeper into communion with God through prayer, study, and other spiritual disciplines.

I do believe that fellowship is important, but I don't think I'd have much in common with unbelievers, who don't share the same common tie with Jesus, but shared the same sin issue.

The rooms are a mix of people, just as churches often are. You continually overlook the Biblical basis of the program. Please educate yourself Click!

 

[Nat2019]

They turned to God, just as everyone who recognizes the true nature of their plight does... as the 12 steps promote. I already said that

It works for millions and millions of people whether you are persuaded or not. God gave us a blue-print also. Do you think people need absolutely no guidance whatsoever?

Meeting around a particular sin? Gosh, the meetings I attend, the general format for speakers centers on sharing their experience, strength, and hope, and many remain to help others, to be there when the newcomer comes in looking for a solution to their problems and an end to their pain and harming others. Do you go to church? You have just said it is a not a good idea to associate with sinners, and churches are full of them. The pastors and elders at my church openly acknowledge their sins, and it is a Biblical principle to confess our sins to each other.

The rooms are a mix of people, just as churches often are. You continually overlook the Biblical basis of the program. Please educate yourself Click!

Reading Gods word everyday would have more impact because we need to renew our minds every day and not just once a week. We need to meditate on the whole bible to change our thoughts, not just say or do (12) steps that talk about God. I went to a group like this for mental health and i thought it was strange how we were in a circle praying to God and holding hands. Most of these people werent even Christian and the words in this program werent even bible verses. But i am not sure about your one.

 

[Magenta]

Reading Gods word everyday would have more impact because we need to renew our minds every day and not just once a week. We need to meditate on the whole bible to change our thoughts, not just say or do (12) steps that talk about God. I went to a group like this for mental health and i thought it was strange how we were in a circle praying to God and holding hands. Most of these people werent even Christian and the words in this program werent even bible verses. But i am not sure about your one.

I do read from the Bible every day. However, going to meetings is not about reading the Bible, but helping others get their lives in order whether they believe in God or not. I do go to church once a week and also attend community groups where we have fellowship and discuss the week's teaching (right now we are in a ten month study of the sermon on the mount). Whether the people I and others (who have achieved sobriety) are able to be of assistance to become believers is not up to me, and I would hope not to discriminate.

 

[Nat2019]

I do read from the Bible every day. However, going to meetings is not about reading the Bible, but helping others get their lives in order whether they believe in God or not. I do go to church once a week and also attend community groups where we have fellowship and discuss the week's teaching (right now we are in a ten month study of the sermon on the mount). Whether the people I and others (who have achieved sobriety) are able to be of assistance to become believers is not up to me, and I would hope not to discriminate.

So do you believe that God delivers from sin or a program?

-Do you see drunkenness and drug taking as you would see murder, theft, adultery etc.

Do these sins like Murder, theft or Adultery need to be helped by a 12 step program as well. Some people may struggle with these problems.

 

[Magenta]

Reading Gods word everyday would have more impact because we need to renew our minds every day and not just once a week. We need to meditate on the whole bible to change our thoughts, not just say or do (12) steps that talk about God. I went to a group like this for mental health and i thought it was strange how we were in a circle praying to God and holding hands. Most of these people werent even Christian and the words in this program werent even bible verses. But i am not sure about your one.

The 12 step program acknowledges the One true God Who has all power, and encourage prayer and meditation. People are sick, many are dying, and we all need help. If you do not wish to go where people are looking for help to offer assistance that is up to you, but I do not think you should be actively trying to discourage others from doing so, especially when you do not even understand the program.

^ ^ These are staples of the program Many meetings close with a shortened version of the latter.

 

[Nat2019]

The 12 step program acknowledges the One true God Who has all power, and encourage prayer and meditation. People are sick, many are dying, and we all need help. If you do not wish to go where people are looking for help to offer assistance that is up to you, but I do not think you should be actively trying to discourage others from doing so, especially when you do not even understand the program.

I'd rather encourage people to go to God first as well as the bible. Because we need to view the whole bible to be renewed in the spirit of our minds. Not just view 12 steps.

 

[Magenta]

I'd rather encourage people to go to God first as well as the bible. Because we need to view the whole bible to be renewed in the spirit of our minds. Not just view 12 steps.

Good luck trying to get nonbelievers to reverentially read the Bible.

The 12 steps are all about turning to God. How often must you be told this?

 

[Nat2019]

They turned to God, just as everyone who recognizes the true nature of their plight does... as the 12 steps promote.

The bible promotes us to turn to God. NOT 12 STEPS. Its Gods word first not

Good luck trying to get nonbelievers to reverentially read the Bible.

If they dont want God then they cant get the freedom he gives. Freedom from Sin means freedom from alot of Sins not just drug and alcohol taking. Some people can get clean without God, but they still have the constant desires in their minds to use again. Being tormented by desires constantly. Some people stay clean for a while and go back when something goes wrong in their lifes. Christian's aren't exempt from ever falling again, but the difference is their desires for it decrease over time. But they can still fall again and be tempted by sins they were previously delivered from....

 

[calibob]

Step 2 came to believe that a power greater then ourselves could restore us to sanity. I came to believe in Jesus
Step 3 made a decision to turn our will and our lives to the care of God. I asked Jesus

There are many that do. The Big Book is not a bible So I read the Bible every day too. but the big book is targeted at persons with addictive disorders that are beyond self control. We must each find God another way because by it's own charter it 's to remain non political, non religious and non professional. It is left up to each individual to come to believe on their own terms. AA & NA don't want to compete with church. Religion is not their business (*) Study and especially prayer / meditation are always encouraged. It is a spiritual program, not religious one that grows by attraction not promotion.

Being that it would be illegal to include going to X ammount of meetings as a term combined with recovery programs, probation and parole agencies it would be illegal to force anyone to attend 'religious services' So remaining officially agnostic allows more public support and probably saves lives. Those with the desire to seek God will find him and the program encourages all of us to seek God!

 

[Magenta]

The bible promotes us to turn to God. NOT 12 STEPS. Its Gods word first not
If they dont want God then they cant get the freedom he gives. Freedom from Sin means freedom from alot of Sins not just drug and alcohol taking. Some people can get clean without God, but they still have the constant desires in their minds to use again. Being tormented by desires constantly. Some people stay clean for a while and go back when something goes wrong in their lifes. Christian's aren't exempt from ever falling again, but the difference is their desires for it decrease over time. But they can still fall again and be tempted by sins they were previously delivered from....

I cried out to God for help and was relieved pretty much immediately of the desire to use. I did not believe in that God at the time nor did I come to believe for quite a few years after. In the mean time, the program and various 12 step fellowships helped me change my life for the better, immensely, and encouraged my seeking. Many meetings have the 12 steps prominently displayed somewhere in the room, wherein God is mentioned eight times. Claiming the steps do not promote a turning to God is sheer ignorance.