If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

[Dan_473]

The sentence : We are serounding by great cloud of witnesses.

You interprate as Mary is omnipresent like God ? Where It say oN the verse Mary omnipresent?

Where the verse say great cloud of witnesses is Mary?

In contrast pope bowing Down infront of statue you interprate, pope not bow unto statue?

What wrong with you brother?

Simple you make It complicated to make like catholic not satanic.





A

I believe you asked me what possible Bible passage the Catholics might interpret as Mary being able to see many people at the same time.

I wasn't sure, but I guessed.

If we have a great cloud of witnesses watching all of us, then it seems to me reasonable that people in heaven may be able to see what's happening on Earth.

 

[Dan_473]

The sentence : We are serounding by great cloud of witnesses.

You interprate as Mary is omnipresent like God ? Where It say oN the verse Mary omnipresent?

Where the verse say great cloud of witnesses is Mary?

In contrast pope bowing Down infront of statue you interprate, pope not bow unto statue?

What wrong with you brother?

Simple you make It complicated to make like catholic not satanic.





A

Brother, do you feel that the Bible is very simple, and anyone can just pick it up and easily understand what it means?

1 Corinthians 14: 33. As in all the assemblies of the saints, 34. let your wives keep silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted for them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as the law also says.

Some people read that and actually make church meetings where women are completely silent. Does your church do that?

If not, then something that is very simply stated in the scripture has multiple interpretations!

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Well how you doing Nebuchadnezzer! Easy name to remember (lived like a Beast!)

Thanks for the comments and glad you found it informative. I think the story of Wycliffe is fascinating. I wasn't writing it to bash the Catholic Church by the way - it is written all over the English History pages and you can't really separate the circumstances or story of Wycliffe and what he suffered to make the Scripture known to all people and how it came into being that the Bible was translated into English without mentioning that gruesome time in history. (Just saying)

The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:1-14

Well for sure I have never considered that theory of yours before. I will research it though now you mention it and thanks for that. Very interesting!

So far, I have always thought that the Two Witnesses were Moses and Elijah (Elias).

The Two Witnesses are known as Candlesticks/ Olive Trees. Also known as the Anointed Ones who are also mentioned back in Zechariah 4:11.

"Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?"

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Elijah and Moses stood by the Lord in the Transfiguration. Also the Two Witnesses are described as also having the "power to shut up Heaven" (the only one in the Bible that has been able to do that is Elijah during the days of Ahab) and have” the power to turn water into blood and bring plagues” (Moses was the only one in the Bible able to do that).

There is also a correspondence to the time that Jesus met Moses and Elijah (after six days / six thousand years) on the Mount in the Transfiguration. This would correspond to during the Tribulation period when the 2 witnesses are expected.

In the Book of James it says that Elijah (Elias) shut up the Heavens for three and a half years. During the times of Ahab it doesn't say how long but it does in James 5.17.

"Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months" James 5:17

This is compelling stuff. The two witnesses in Rev 11 does read very much like it's talking about two individuals. There is much about the two Witnesses I do not understand.

However, I do question the idea of Moses coming back. Where in the bible does it permit us to believe that someone could live twice on earth? I guess you could point to Lazarus, he was four days dead in the tomb and then came back to life. But where was Lazarus for that four days? Was he asleep in the ground? If Moses is to come back to life thousands of years after he died to serve as one of the two witnesses, where was he for those thousands of years? Was he in the same place as Lazarus? And where might Jude 1:9 - the Verse about Michael and the devil disputing over Moses's body - fit into the two witnesses?

And why can't the two witnesses be two new people. I mean John the Baptist wasn't Elijah although he came in the Spirit of Elijah. I mean couldn't the two witnesses come in the Spirit of Moses and Elijah? I mean how can you really know until it happens?

 

[garee]

I believe you asked me what possible Bible passage the Catholics might interpret as Mary being able to see many people at the same time.

I wasn't sure, but I guessed.

If we have a great cloud of witnesses watching all of us, then it seems to me reasonable that people in heaven may be able to see what's happening on Earth.

The word of God and not the word of the legion of fathers as men. . . informs us infallibly. God only, knows the hearts of all the children of men.

1 Kings 8:38-40 King James Version (KJV) What prayer and supplication soever be made by any man, or by all thy people Israel, which shall know every man the plague of his own heart, and spread forth his hands toward this house: Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men

God alone can see into the hearts of all men and move them to seek after the new treasure of their hearts . Our blesses sister in the Lord, Mary had that same treasure by which she could believe God not seen (faith) .

2 Corinthians 4:7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The loving commandment to seek Him who knows what we need before we ask moves us to seek after that "one manner". Not manners as in many to seek after 3500 and rising as some sort of cloud of witness. As usual two kinds .The real and the counterfeit.

The cloud of witness we do hear speaks of the faith of Christ that worked in them to both will and do His good pleasure .

He speaks of it in Mathew 6 and warns of vain repetitions . And its not repetitions that are vain empty but the manner. The one below is vain. One is to many to recite. . repeating it a thousand times will not cause it to be heard on high

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

Mathew 6: 6-10 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Seeking the legion of patron saints (3500 and rising) it is not cloud of witness referred to in Hebrews. But the cloud that blew away when Josiah performed the works of the book of law (sola scriptura)

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits (patron saints) , and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the "abominations" that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.

 

[Jackson123]

I disagree that it is a simple thing, either the question of bowing down or the question of stealing.

Bowing down to a statue will look like different things for different people.

From what I can tell from the Hebrew, the word that is used in Leviticus 26:1 for bow down also is used to mean worship.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_7812.htm

So, you shall not worship the statue. Now the question is, is the Pope worshipping the statue or what it symbolizes? I think we would have to know what is in the heart of the Pope to know the answer.

1. Than both bowing Down and worship are prohibit.

2. The translation is expert, he may Translate as bowing Down in Leviticus base oN context.

 

[Jackson123]

I believe you asked me what possible Bible passage the Catholics might interpret as Mary being able to see many people at the same time.

I wasn't sure, but I guessed.

If we have a great cloud of witnesses watching all of us, then it seems to me reasonable that people in heaven may be able to see what's happening on Earth.

Possible mean may not, than who catholic talk to when they pray to saint? Is that familier spirit that pretend to be saint?

 

[Jackson123]

Brother, do you feel that the Bible is very simple, and anyone can just pick it up and easily understand what it means?

1 Corinthians 14: 33. As in all the assemblies of the saints, 34. let your wives keep silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted for them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as the law also says.

Some people read that and actually make church meetings where women are completely silent. Does your church do that?

If not, then something that is very simply stated in the scripture has multiple interpretations!

Yep It is simple. Some people not agree with bible. Woman not permited to speak mean woman not permited to speak. That is simple.

 

[Jackson123]

I believe you asked me what possible Bible passage the Catholics might interpret as Mary being able to see many people at the same time.

I wasn't sure, but I guessed.

If we have a great cloud of witnesses watching all of us, then it seems to me reasonable that people in heaven may be able to see what's happening on Earth.

Jesus able to see us, not people in heaven. Resident of Heaven not only human, there are cloud of angel.

If Mary or Paul able to communicate to us, I Will ask zpaul to preach every sunday.

 

[Jackson123]

Jesus able to see us, not people in heaven. Resident of Heaven not only human, there are cloud of angel.

If Mary or Paul able to communicate to us, I Will ask zpaul to preach every sunday.

If Mary able to hear billions of catholic pray to her, than Mary is God, not human anymore

 

[Heyjude]

@Heyjude

Hey Jude,
Did you see this post below? It's totally cool if you saw it and just didn't want to respond. but it seemed like we were having an interesting conversation about apostolic authority, so I wanted to know if you wanted to follow up on that post.

Hey Dan,

Well I think I already replied to that, as someone else quoted your question in another post but anyhow.

We were talking about how my post reminded you of a quote from the Gospel of Thomas and I asked you why as my post referred to nothing about the Gospel of Thomas but was about why I left the Catholic Church. You said that lots of people wrote lots of stuff in the past although I am still not sure what that had to do with your reference to the Gospel of Thomas referring to my post, but that was the context in which we were speaking of Apostles.

I replied that the Gospel of Thomas contradicts Apostle Authority. Jesus named certain people Apostles when he named the Twelve. That is what I was talking about as the context will get wider and wider otherwise, but to stick to my “Point”, and not get lost in a Pointless Forest, to be clear, I am and was, referring to "Apostles" in the sense that Jesus called them and named them. You might prefer another meaning of that word but this is how I see the word "Apostles".

Jesus is stated in the Bible to have sent out the Twelve Apostles, "whom he also named apostles" (Luke 6:13)

So "Apostle" in the context of what I was referring to is those to whom Jesus gave authority or the true Ambassadors of Christ.

In the Infancy Gospel of Thomas it contradicts the Apostles and Jesus. Here are some things it says about Jesus’ childhood: he called a child an “unrighteous, irreverent idiot” (3:1-3). Another child bumped into Jesus, which aggravated him so much that Jesus struck him dead (4:1-2).

Evidently those who provoked childhood Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas fell dead a lot (14:3).

Or here is another

“Simon Peter said to them, ‘Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life.’ Jesus said, ‘I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven’” (Saying 114).

Does that sound like Peter in the NT?

“ Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?”(1 Corinthians 9:5)

Jesus didn't refuse to heal women or daughters because they were “not worthy of life”?

“ And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever”. ( Matthew 8:14-17)

Does this sound like Jesus in the NT? Striking people dead and cursing them? Does this sound like Peter in the NT? Saying women were not worthy of life? The healing of the mother of Peter's wife is one of the miracles of Jesus in the Gospels. He wouldn't have done that if they were "not worthy of life" nor would Peter have asked him to.

Both of these documents were written long after the time of Jesus and his earliest followers. You do not have to research this very deep to know this.

The writings in the New Testament are still the earliest and most reliable witnesses to the words and works of Jesus. You do not have to believe that if you do not want to as you seem to doubt their validity?

Do you doubt the New Testament then? And if you do not know the true meaning of what Apostles are, you can research it easily enough and you do not need me to teach you.

I can only comment on the context of our conversation and not out of that context which was The Gospel of Thomas is “Gnostic Fake News”. That is why I was asking you why my post reminded you of it, as my post hadnt the slightest resemblance to it.

 

[Heyjude]

I'm not completely sure, but I think the Catholic interpretation is that the body of Christ functions as a single unit. A person doesn't stop being part of the body of Christ because their physical body has died. So just as you ask your Christian brothers and sisters here on Earth to pray with you and for you, so also Catholics ask their Christian brothers and sisters in heaven to pray with them and for them.

They can do what they like, but where does it say for Catholics to ask their Christian brothers and sisters in heaven to pray with them and for them?

This word “Mediator” is used in the New Testament and is one who acts as a medium of communication between two contracting parties. In this sense Moses is called a mediator in Galatians 3:19 .

Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man.

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2;5)

 

[Heyjude]

@Heyjude

Hey Jude,
Did you see this post below? It's totally cool if you saw it and just didn't want to respond. but it seemed like we were having an interesting conversation about apostolic authority, so I wanted to know if you wanted to follow up on that post.

I have replied to this in post #790

 

[Heyjude]

This is compelling stuff. The two witnesses in Rev 11 does read very much like it's talking about two individuals. There is much about the two Witnesses I do not understand.

However, I do question the idea of Moses coming back. Where in the bible does it permit us to believe that someone could live twice on earth? I guess you could point to Lazarus, he was four days dead in the tomb and then came back to life. But where was Lazarus for that four days? Was he asleep in the ground? If Moses is to come back to life thousands of years after he died to serve as one of the two witnesses, where was he for those thousands of years? Was he in the same place as Lazarus? And where might Jude 1:9 - the Verse about Michael and the devil disputing over Moses's body - fit into the two witnesses?

And why can't the two witnesses be two new people. I mean John the Baptist wasn't Elijah although he came in the Spirit of Elijah. I mean couldn't the two witnesses come in the Spirit of Moses and Elijah? I mean how can you really know until it happens?

Exactly. How can anyone know until it happens?

There are many previous posts on Lazarus from those who know more than I do. I would be interested to know what others think as well who haven't replied to the previous posts as you do Nebuchadnezzar! Previous posts on this are on the bottom link.

You can study the Bible all your life and still find new things.

Its a bit like Shakespeare. Ask anyone what the theme of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet is and many say it is about "Love". But what is "Love"?

In the case of Romeo, it was a kind of madness, or to do with whomever he loved one minute to the next, almost as if he had to attach himself to someone and would go mad otherwise. He changed horses too quickly to define "love" in the true sense. Maybe he was in "love with being in love" which is why he dropped one girl and then set his sights on another just as quick, claiming the same "love" as he did shortly before, but for someone else. Then when he couldn't be with the new one, would rather die.

Was this the true meaning and message of Shakespeare? Who knows? But it really does coin the phrase people use when they call some men "a Romeo" as this refers to a man who can love many women one after the other. Not really "Love" though is it?

At the beginning of the play in Romeo and Juliet, Romeo is in love with another chick called Rosaline. Most overlook this. Many claim to know the play but do not clock this. Shakespeare is drawing your attention to the character of Romeo.

Romeo says:

"She hath forsworn to love, and in that vow / Do I live dead that live to tell it now."

His close friend Mercutio says

"That same pale, hard-hearted wench, that Rosaline, torments him so that he will sure run mad."

Not for long it seems.....only until the next chick comes along.

After Romeo sees Juliet his feelings suddenly change:

"Did my heart love till now? Forswear it, sight / For I ne'er saw true beauty till this night."

mmm. I think Shakespeare is questioning the meaning of so called "Love". Many do not see this and in fact overlook the character Rosaline in the play. Ask some who Rosaline is in Romeo and Juliet and they look vague. yet her part in the play to define the story is key. She isn't even in the play nor speaks yet her "part" is key.

In the same way there are many uncovered truths in the story of Lazarus that even the most qualified bible scholar fails to explain.

I think there are many deeper meanings to the story of Lazarus rising from the dead and the points you raise are valid. People can say, "he sleeps" or whatever, but like you, I don't think this explains it fully. I think you are asking the question, was Lazarus fully conscious, aware, did he "think" or "know" anything while he was dead? It is a strange correspondence that the same name Lazarus is used in the story of Lazarus and the Rich man as well, don't you think? Why though?

I would like to know what others think as well!

On the Two Witnesses, yes as you say, it is possible to come in the "Spirit of Elijah". But I can only use what the text points at about the Two Witnesses, in describing them as "two anointed" and where that is in other parts of the Bible, as well as having" the power to shut up Heaven" and "bring plagues/turn water into blood". They have to have at least these abilities and nowhere else does it say this apart from Moses and Elijah and the glorified bodies of Moses and Elijah were seen with Jesus. Moses and Elijah appeared "in all their glory" with Jesus.

What does to Glorious, Glory or to appear in Glory mean?

" And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

Who appeared in glory, and spoke of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem."(Luke 9:30-31)

"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." Philippians 3:20-21

Previous posts regarding Lazarus on CC here.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...s-spirit-or-soul-during-the-four-days.100587/

 

[Dan_473]

The word of God and not the word of the legion of fathers as men. . . informs us infallibly. God only, knows the hearts of all the children of men.

1 Kings 8:38-40 King James Version (KJV) What prayer and supplication soever be made by any man, or by all thy people Israel, which shall know every man the plague of his own heart, and spread forth his hands toward this house: Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men

God alone can see into the hearts of all men and move them to seek after the new treasure of their hearts . Our blesses sister in the Lord, Mary had that same treasure by which she could believe God not seen (faith) .

2 Corinthians 4:7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The loving commandment to seek Him who knows what we need before we ask moves us to seek after that "one manner". Not manners as in many to seek after 3500 and rising as some sort of cloud of witness. As usual two kinds .The real and the counterfeit.

The cloud of witness we do hear speaks of the faith of Christ that worked in them to both will and do His good pleasure .

He speaks of it in Mathew 6 and warns of vain repetitions . And its not repetitions that are vain empty but the manner. The one below is vain. One is to many to recite. . repeating it a thousand times will not cause it to be heard on high




Mathew 6: 6-10 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Seeking the legion of patron saints (3500 and rising) it is not cloud of witness referred to in Hebrews. But the cloud that blew away when Josiah performed the works of the book of law (sola scriptura)

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits (patron saints) , and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the "abominations" that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.

Whether the cloud of witnesses is witnessing to us of what they have seen or witnessing what we are doing looks to me like a matter of interpretation once again.

Yes, God sees the hearts. If we say something out loud, then those around us, witnesses, can hear what we have said.

 

[Dan_473]

1. Than both bowing Down and worship are prohibit.

2. The translation is expert, he may Translate as bowing Down in Leviticus base oN context.

right, bowing down to the statue and worshipping the statue are both prohibited. But is the pope worshipping the statue? Again, I would say we would have to know what was in the Pope's heart.

I agree that the translators of the King James were experts. And Jerome who translated the Bible into Latin was also an expert. How does he translate that passage?

Also, I think Catholics would assume that the church is an expert at interpretation, guided by the holy Spirit. And I think the church's interpretation is that what the pope is doing is a good thing.

Of course, you personally can have a different interpretation.

 

[Dan_473]

Possible mean may not, than who catholic talk to when they pray to saint? Is that familier spirit that pretend to be saint?

I believe possible means maybe yes, maybe no.

I think the Catholics would interpret the passage to mean that they are talking to someone who is in heaven.

 

[Dan_473]

Yep It is simple. Some people not agree with bible. Woman not permited to speak mean woman not permited to speak. That is simple.

Do the women in the church that you go to speak? What kind of a church do you go to?

From what I've seen on YouTube, many of the churches in Indonesia have women worship leaders. Are they sinning, as you understand the Bible?

Again, and of course, you are welcome to that interpretation. The vast majority of Protestants would disagree with you, as well as Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Dan_473]

Jesus able to see us, not people in heaven. Resident of Heaven not only human, there are cloud of angel.

If Mary or Paul able to communicate to us, I Will ask zpaul to preach every sunday.

From what I understand, Catholics see it as easy to be heard by someone in heaven, but communications coming from heaven are much more rare. Many people believe that they can talk with Jesus. but most people say that Jesus doesn't come and talk at their church every Sunday. Or they say that he speaks through the scriptures, which Catholics would say also.

Also, I think that Catholics believe that the office of apostle didn't end in the first century, but that it continues on to today.

So, as I understand the Catholic thinking, when you listen to the teaching of the church, you are hearing the voice of the apostles throughout the centuries.

 

[Dan_473]

If Mary able to hear billions of catholic pray to her, than Mary is God, not human anymore

I don't think that follows necessarily.

Looking at science, based on the theory of relativity, time applies to physical objects, like our bodies. When we die, does time still apply to us?

Here's an interesting verse, I think
1 Corinthians 5: 3. For I most certainly, as being absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as though I were present, judged him who has done this thing.

 

[Dan_473]

Hey Dan,

Well I think I already replied to that, as someone else quoted your question in another post but anyhow.

We were talking about how my post reminded you of a quote from the Gospel of Thomas and I asked you why as my post referred to nothing about the Gospel of Thomas but was about why I left the Catholic Church. You said that lots of people wrote lots of stuff in the past although I am still not sure what that had to do with your reference to the Gospel of Thomas referring to my post, but that was the context in which we were speaking of Apostles.

I replied that the Gospel of Thomas contradicts Apostle Authority. Jesus named certain people Apostles when he named the Twelve. That is what I was talking about as the context will get wider and wider otherwise, but to stick to my “Point”, and not get lost in a Pointless Forest, to be clear, I am and was, referring to "Apostles" in the sense that Jesus called them and named them. You might prefer another meaning of that word but this is how I see the word "Apostles".

Jesus is stated in the Bible to have sent out the Twelve Apostles, "whom he also named apostles" (Luke 6:13)

So "Apostle" in the context of what I was referring to is those to whom Jesus gave authority or the true Ambassadors of Christ.

In the Infancy Gospel of Thomas it contradicts the Apostles and Jesus. Here are some things it says about Jesus’ childhood: he called a child an “unrighteous, irreverent idiot” (3:1-3). Another child bumped into Jesus, which aggravated him so much that Jesus struck him dead (4:1-2).

Evidently those who provoked childhood Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas fell dead a lot (14:3).

Or here is another

“Simon Peter said to them, ‘Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life.’ Jesus said, ‘I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven’” (Saying 114).

Does that sound like Peter in the NT?

“ Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?”(1 Corinthians 9:5)

Jesus didn't refuse to heal women or daughters because they were “not worthy of life”?

“ And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever”. ( Matthew 8:14-17)

Does this sound like Jesus in the NT? Striking people dead and cursing them? Does this sound like Peter in the NT? Saying women were not worthy of life? The healing of the mother of Peter's wife is one of the miracles of Jesus in the Gospels. He wouldn't have done that if they were "not worthy of life" nor would Peter have asked him to.

Both of these documents were written long after the time of Jesus and his earliest followers. You do not have to research this very deep to know this.

The writings in the New Testament are still the earliest and most reliable witnesses to the words and works of Jesus. You do not have to believe that if you do not want to as you seem to doubt their validity?

Do you doubt the New Testament then? And if you do not know the true meaning of what Apostles are, you can research it easily enough and you do not need me to teach you.

I can only comment on the context of our conversation and not out of that context which was The Gospel of Thomas is “Gnostic Fake News”. That is why I was asking you why my post reminded you of it, as my post hadnt the slightest resemblance to it.

Hi Heyjude,

Thank you for the nice response! my sense from reading it is that you would rather not talk about these subjects. If that's the case, that's completely fine, and peace be with you.

But if you want to keep talking about these things, then please keep reading below



*************************************




My impression from what I think was your first post on this thread was that you had grown up Catholic, but at this point did not want anything to do with tradition, you just wanted to focus on the Bible.

Well, a place where tradition and the Bible overlap is in the question of which documents should be in the Bible.

When I brought up the Gospel of Thomas, I believe you responded by saying that it lacked apostolic authority. I then asked if apostolic authority was something that all the other books in the New testament had. A further and similar question would be are there any documents not currently included in the New testament which have apostolic authority?

Now if I'm correctly following what you are saying in your post above, and I may very well not be, the idea of apostolic authority is that a document has it if it is in line with the teaching of The twelve apostles. But if that's the case, it would seem to lead to a situation of circular reasoning, because we would have to know first what documents have apostolic authority so that we would know what the teaching of the apostles was.