If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

[Jackson123]

Well, different interpretations of stealing come with different ideas about who has valid ownership of what.

Some people say government taxation is theft, some people say private property is theft.

So it's kind of like different ideas about what is bowing down and what is a graven image.

But steal is steal

steal
/stēl/
verb
1.
take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
"thieves stole her bicycle"

 

[GKChesterton]

.
My eldest brother (for convenience sake, call him Larry) was ordained to the
priesthood in 1965 and remained so for 53 years prior to passing away at
the age of 78 in May of 2018.

Larry graduated from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. He taught
at the University of San Diego and has served in parishes in San Diego,
Mexico, Portland, the Tohono O'odham Indian Reservation, and Huntington
Beach. Larry served as the Director of Pastoral Ministry and the first Rector
of the Conventual Church of Our Lady of the Angels at the Franciscan
Renewal Center, Scottsdale, Arizona.

In 1973, he served at University of San Diego as an Assistant Professor of
Religious Studies in the College of Arts and Sciences. Larry then served as
the University Chaplain and Director of Campus Ministry from September
1974 until June 1984.

Larry entered the Franciscan Order to become a Friar in 1987 after serving
as a priest of the Diocese of San Diego for 22 years. During his semi
retirement years, Larry, he was a priest at the Mission San Luis Rey in
Oceanside, California.

Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a
hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications
of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased
brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and
the extent of his devotion to The Church. It would also mean that my
brother was a minister of darkness rather than light; thus everyone he
influenced was led down a path leading directly to the lake of brimstone
depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where they would be facing a mode of death akin
to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

I can only imagine the crushing, unspeakable dismay that my brother would
undergo were it to turn out that all the while he sincerely believed himself
serving Christ's best interests, he was actually serving the Devil's.
_

The Catholic Church is run by men, not God, so it will sometimes be mistaken and those who run it, being men, will sometimes sin. Sins may be great or small, and so may mistakes.
Millions of Christians have lived and died as Catholics . Indeed, it was the Catholic Church which preserved and spread Christianity through early history.

How can you think that your dear brother could be condemned for this ?

 

[Heyjude]

The harvest is going great! Like it says,

Psalm 126: 6. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.


I can totally understand the idea of just going in the direction that the spirit tells you to go, using a book that the spirit tells you. I've met some Mormons who just feel a burning in their bosom about the book of Mormon. They are convinced that the holy Spirit as told them that it is the way to go. Nothing can really be said after that, if the person is convinced it's the spirit.


After reading your post, the idea of looking over the Gospel of Thomas came to me. I found this interesting verse

1:1 And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

I use KJV as my main reference but I do cross reference and think everybody should, as some verses are different and the English words and have changed their meanings over time which reflect different translations.

Isaiah 45.7 for instance.

New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Berean Study Bible
I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things.

New American Standard Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

New King James Version
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Contemporary English Version
I create light and darkness, happiness and sorrow. I, the LORD, do all this.

Good News Translation
I create both light and darkness; I bring both blessing and disaster. I, the LORD, do all these things.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things."

International Standard Version
"I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

NET Bible
I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.

New Heart English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.

JPS Tanakh 1917
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

New American Standard 1977
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

Jubilee Bible 2000
I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I am the LORD that does all this.

King James 2000 Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.

American King James Version
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

Darby Bible Translation
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

English Revised Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

Webster's Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

World English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

Young's Literal Translation
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

I am not sure what you mean when you say my post reminds you of words from the Gospel of Thomas - a Gnostic Gospel?

Despite the best efforts of some, Thomas doesn’t even come close to Scripture. It wasn’t backed by apostolic authority. Its contents contradict the orthodox texts. And the church never even came close to considering it as authoritative. So what do you mean by that?

 

[notuptome]

I believe you reach those conclusions by assuming that the Bible "just is", and that God intended the Bible to be read by each individual alone, and interpreted by each individual separately.

Believe what you want. If you believe that the Roman catholic church has any truth you are believing in vain. If the Roman catholic church had any truth they would pervert it for the corrupt gain of the catholic church. They trade in the souls of men and will be severely judged by God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dan_473]

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Its a Catholic oral tradition of men as the witness of men.(Sacred Tradition). God's witness (sola scriptura) the greater does not accept the private witness of men and call them Sacred as a Devine authority .



You would think they would of at least given the word of God... Sacred Scripture first reference .

Do you mean that God gives witness as to which documents are scripture?

do you mean that God tells each individual separately which documents are scripture?

 

[Dan_473]

Bowing down to the image is used to put a face on the legion of what some call patron saints as a form of necromancy . When it comes up as gods in the likeness of men . Catholicism boast of 3500 and rising rapidly patron saints as workers with a familiar spirit .

When Hilkiah found the book of the law (sola scriptura ) he was empowered to put away the abomination that cause desolation .Human form in the place of our Father in heaven we pray one manner called this manner as a source of the unseen (faith )

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

No such manner pray our legion of fathers and venerate/hallow their names as those who lord it over the faith of the non venerable pew sitters.


2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that the priest found in the house of the Lord.

Sola scriptura the words of the law which were written in the book.... the written check list.

What you wrote makes sense if the scripture is intended for each individual to read by themselves, and interpret by themselves.

 

[Dan_473]

But steal is steal

steal
/stēl/
verb
1.
take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
"thieves stole her bicycle"

Yes, steal is steal.

I believe you asked how stealing could have different interpretations. I gave some examples of how different people would regard some actions as stealing and other people would say the same action is not stealing.

So, differences of interpretation.

 

[Dan_473]

I use KJV as my main reference but I do cross reference and think everybody should, as some verses are different and the English words and have changed their meanings over time which reflect different translations.

Isaiah 45.7 for instance.

New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Berean Study Bible
I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things.

New American Standard Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

New King James Version
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Contemporary English Version
I create light and darkness, happiness and sorrow. I, the LORD, do all this.

Good News Translation
I create both light and darkness; I bring both blessing and disaster. I, the LORD, do all these things.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things."

International Standard Version
"I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

NET Bible
I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.

New Heart English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.

JPS Tanakh 1917
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

New American Standard 1977
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

Jubilee Bible 2000
I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I am the LORD that does all this.

King James 2000 Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.

American King James Version
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

Darby Bible Translation
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

English Revised Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

Webster's Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

World English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

Young's Literal Translation
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

I am not sure what you mean when you say my post reminds you of words from the Gospel of Thomas - a Gnostic Gospel?

Despite the best efforts of some, Thomas doesn’t even come close to Scripture. It wasn’t backed by apostolic authority. Its contents contradict the orthodox texts. And the church never even came close to considering it as authoritative. So what do you mean by that?

Yes, it's good to cross reference with different translations!

I'm not sure why the idea of looking over the Gospel of Thomas came to me after reading your post. Maybe it's the idea that all sorts of documents must have resonated with different people in order for them to spend enough time to copy them out by hand.

What do you mean by "backed by apostolic authority"? Is this something that the other New testament books had?

 

[Dan_473]

Believe what you want. If you believe that the Roman catholic church has any truth you are believing in vain. If the Roman catholic church had any truth they would pervert it for the corrupt gain of the catholic church. They trade in the souls of men and will be severely judged by God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You may wish to ask yourself if you believe that the Bible "just is", or if it has a history to it.

And if the Bible has a history, does that history in any way overlap with the church that it sounds like you believe has no truth in it.

 

[notuptome]

You may wish to ask yourself if you believe that the Bible "just is", or if it has a history to it.

And if the Bible has a history, does that history in any way overlap with the church that it sounds like you believe has no truth in it.

The bible has verbal and plenary inspiration. The Roman catholic church has only the traditions of men who were wicked sinners pretending to be religious.

If you have an appeal make it through the bible not man made traditions.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dan_473]

The bible has verbal and plenary inspiration. The Roman catholic church has only the traditions of men who were wicked sinners pretending to be religious.

If you have an appeal make it through the bible not man made traditions.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

"verbal and plenary inspiration", yes amen!

Which documents have that inspiration, and as such should be in the Bible, that's where the interesting history comes up.

If you're interested I'd be glad to look at it with you.

Here's an interesting website I found, posted by a Baptist I believe
http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon3.html

 

[notuptome]

"verbal and plenary inspiration", yes amen!

Which documents have that inspiration, and as such should be in the Bible, that's where the interesting history comes up.

If you're interested I'd be glad to look at it with you.

Here's an interesting website I found, posted by a Baptist I believe
http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon3.html

Share it with your catholic friends that they might come to a true and genuine saving knowledge of Christ. Do not allow them to go blindly into eternal condemnation based on roman catholic church teachings.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Heyjude]

Yes, it's good to cross reference with different translations!

I'm not sure why the idea of looking over the Gospel of Thomas came to me after reading your post. Maybe it's the idea that all sorts of documents must have resonated with different people in order for them to spend enough time to copy them out by hand.

What do you mean by "backed by apostolic authority"? Is this something that the other New testament books had?

Hey Dan,

What I meant to say was, that despite the best efforts of some, Thomas doesn’t even come close to Scripture. It wasn’t backed by apostolic authority. meaning it was kicked out of being accepted by the Church as its contents contradict the orthodox texts. Actually the church never even came close to considering it as authoritative.

Unlike the real Thomas, we have good reasons to doubt it.

I think it shows quite a different character of Jesus or of what the Apostles quoted of him, making Jesus into a Gnostic.

They specifically rejected Thomas as heretical, meaning, it didn’t even come close. This rejection is contrasted with other books, like the Shepherd of Hermas or the Didache, that at least gained a hearing. The church enjoyed these books as they promoted Christian orthodoxy, but as I alluded to earlier, the church didn’t recognise these as Scripture either because they lacked apostolic authority so were kicked out as well.

Thomas was so far out in left field that it wasn’t even up for discussion. Eusebius, for example, includes Thomas in the “heretical books” section and suggests that it “ought not be reckoned even among the spurious books but discarded as impious and absurd."

Yes I agree with you, all sorts of writing began early on in pen and ink and not just about the Catholic Church in particular.

I always think its funny when people use the expression "Is the Pope Catholic?" after hearing that Pope Francis once said "I believe in God, not in a Catholic God, there is no Catholic God, there is God and I believe in Jesus Christ, his incarnation."

 

[Dan_473]

Share it with your catholic friends that they might come to a true and genuine saving knowledge of Christ. Do not allow them to go blindly into eternal condemnation based on roman catholic church teachings.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The Catholics that I know are generally very open and receptive to learning about the history of the Bible.

The good friend that I mentioned earlier on this thread who grew up Pentecostal and ended up joining the Eastern Orthodox Church, the thing that started the whole process was basically learning about the history of the Bible.

Anyways, my offer still stands. Let me know if you change your mind.

 

[Dan_473]

Hey Dan,

What I meant to say was, that despite the best efforts of some, Thomas doesn’t even come close to Scripture. It wasn’t backed by apostolic authority. meaning it was kicked out of being accepted by the Church as its contents contradict the orthodox texts. Actually the church never even came close to considering it as authoritative.

Unlike the real Thomas, we have good reasons to doubt it.

I think it shows quite a different character of Jesus or of what the Apostles quoted of him, making Jesus into a Gnostic.

They specifically rejected Thomas as heretical, meaning, it didn’t even come close. This rejection is contrasted with other books, like the Shepherd of Hermas or the Didache, that at least gained a hearing. The church enjoyed these books as they promoted Christian orthodoxy, but as I alluded to earlier, the church didn’t recognise these as Scripture either because they lacked apostolic authority so were kicked out as well.

Thomas was so far out in left field that it wasn’t even up for discussion. Eusebius, for example, includes Thomas in the “heretical books” section and suggests that it “ought not be reckoned even among the spurious books but discarded as impious and absurd."

Yes I agree with you, all sorts of writing began early on in pen and ink and not just about the Catholic Church in particular.

I always think its funny when people use the expression "Is the Pope Catholic?" after hearing that Pope Francis once said "I believe in God, not in a Catholic God, there is no Catholic God, there is God and I believe in Jesus Christ, his incarnation."

I'm still not sure what you mean by apostolic authority.

Do you mean that the early church had the authority to say what was scripture and what was not? And this authority is called apostolic authority?

 

[Jackson123]

Yes, steal is steal.

I believe you asked how stealing could have different interpretations. I gave some examples of how different people would regard some actions as stealing and other people would say the same action is not stealing.

So, differences of interpretation.

The definition of stealing is


steal
/stēl/
verb
1.
take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
"thieves stole her bicycle"

If one take another person property without permission or legal right .....is stealing

If one bow unto statue is bowing.

How you interprate bowing not bow unto?

Why Pope or catholic bow unto statue? What is the benefide of bowing unto statue?

God forbid bowing unto statue

If what pope do you not call It bow unto than what is bow unto look like, give me Example bow unto in a picture.

 

[garee]

I'm still not sure what you mean by apostolic authority.

Do you mean that the early church had the authority to say what was scripture and what was not? And this authority is called apostolic authority?

When you define the word apostle without adding other meaning .Its easy to see there is no such thing as "apostolic authority" or "apostolic time period". Time period of apostles.

Abel was the first apostle, sent one, also the first martyr. Died because of the words he was sent with . . . the testimony of God . Kill the messenger kill the message. Out of sight out of mind. The pagan form of religion, or religion of the fathers as a law of men .

Catholisicim like many false doctrines they simply add new meaning in order to keep the non venerable ones from seeking the approval of God according to his loving commandment.... making it without effect. . We are warned of those what say we must have man seen to teach us. the MO of the antichrist .

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1 John 2:26 -27

In him not in men .

 

[GKChesterton]

Rather extreme view of teaching. Can a Protestant pastor teach anything ?
I think your quote is rather out of context actually.
Do you disapprove of missionary work and preaching the word of God generally then ?

 

[GKChesterton]

I'm a bit dissapointed that so many people want to use Christianity as a tool to reinforce their own ego.

 

[garee]

The definition of stealing is


steal
/stēl/
verb
1.
take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
"thieves stole her bicycle"

If one take another person property without permission or legal right .....is stealing

If one bow unto statue is bowing.

How you interprate bowing not bow unto?

Why Pope or catholic bow unto statue? What is the benefide of bowing unto statue?

God forbid bowing unto statue

If what pope do you not call It bow unto than what is bow unto look like, give me Example bow unto in a picture.

Its not the image they are bowing to but the unseen as to what it represents, as a face of a worker with a familiar spirits, disembodied gods in the likeness of men. The foundation of necromancy .

Clearly when it comes up it always comes up as many gods (legion) . In order to receive the illusion it must be separated from the whole.

There are today 3500 and rising rapidly what some call patron saints a false source of faith . A image idol available for anyone. Some share the work load with other

Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

legion gods .

1 Samuel 28:12-14 King James Version (KJV)And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.