If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken
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Say Roger, here's another way of looking at it.
It sounds to me like you believe that the Bible "just is", that God has preserved it, and it's just obvious to you that it's supposed to be interpreted by each individual reading it for themselves.
From what I have heard from Catholics, they believed that the church "just is", that God has preserved it, that the body of Christ on Earth is the light of the world for salvation.
Do you disagree with their teachings on salvation? Well, two very different assumptions.
The Bible just is.
The Church just is.
It sounds to me like you believe that the Bible "just is", that God has preserved it, and it's just obvious to you that it's supposed to be interpreted by each individual reading it for themselves.
From what I have heard from Catholics, they believed that the church "just is", that God has preserved it, that the body of Christ on Earth is the light of the world for salvation.
Do you disagree with their teachings on salvation? Well, two very different assumptions.
The Bible just is.
The Church just is.
That person in the picture bow Down unto the cross.
No matter who he is, he is subject to
Leviticus 26:1 King James Version (KJV)
26 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.
To bow Down unto is prohibit by this verse, I do not care If he worship or not but bow Down unto is prohibit.
No matter who he is, he is subject to
Leviticus 26:1 King James Version (KJV)
26 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.
To bow Down unto is prohibit by this verse, I do not care If he worship or not but bow Down unto is prohibit.
I used to be part of the Catholic Church but no one could answer any questions I had that seemed so obviously against Scripture.
I always felt uncomfortable with the "Hail Mary full of Grace" prayer as I didn't understand how that could be justified when compared to Scripture. The Churches are full of gold, finely robed men, statues and looked incredibly rich to me when the simple churches I found later always seemed to me more filled with the Holy Spirit and not some distraction of traditions and display. Not men "clothed in purple and fine linen". In fact, I found small bible study groups more informative and uplifting as surely studying Scripture is the key to all faith in the first place.
Romans 10:17 17 “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
I always got some answer from the Priest that didn't ring true, like "early Christians worshiped Mary" but after digging deeper I found there is no evidence of veneration of saints or Mary in the Bible. Not only that, there is every indication that God wants us to only revere Jesus. They always went a funny colour when you ask these questions, almost like a JW when you mention Jesus....
Like it says in Titus 2:5, there is one God and one mediator between God and man–the man Jesus Christ.
We should never worship or venerate any human being. It is against the Bible. Even if a Catholic person can show you that Catholics do unchristian things like venerate saints or Mary it does not make it a biblical or a Christian thing to so. We worship God according to the Scripture, not according to the tradition of man, especially when that tradition so clearly violates the Scripture (Mathew 15:9). There is no possible biblical warrant for worshipping Mary or for revering her. This Catholic teaching is not supported by the Bible. Neither is it supported by a third century papyrus which may or may not be a reference to Mary, of which many use or quote to try and justify this.
I also noticed that many Catholics have "Icons" and worship them. The Commandments were changed to blot out certain words to justify this. But the KJV says
Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.
Exodus 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.
Having said that, I have known many good and true hearted Catholics who talk about Jesus all the time - especially a certain Priest who helped me learn much about Jesus in my youth. I do think many get caught up in their traditions, depending on their upbringing, belief in what their peers, parents and elders teach them and simply haven't questioned Scripture in comparing what God actually says, rather than "early writings" or what "Fatima told people". These answers never satisfied me, so I walked away. I think it is a heartfelt thing and takes courage not to run with the crowd and take the narrow gate. Many do not even read Scripture in these Churches, let alone study the word and question everything. Clearly, many follow the masses but this leads to the wrong place.
Matt 7:14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
It makes me wonder also about those who are "not saved" but it is Gods will that all are saved. If as someone said recently to me, "only around 1% are really born again Christians" then wouldn't that mean Satan had won? I don't believe that as I think the Judgement is for a reason. For God to judge the hearts and minds of everyone rightly. Because only God knows peoples hearts. Everyone gets the chance to give account, like any court on earth.
The painting of the strait (narrow) versus wide gate etching by Jan Luyken (1649-1712) was a true vision of how people follow the wrong path.
I do think though, God being a merciful God, judges all hearts rightly, no matter who they are or what they have been led to believe.
The day of Judgement is for a reason, otherwise why bother to judge anyone? Everyone gets a chance to give an account of why they do what they do and speak what they speak. As God is a merciful and righteous judge, will he not judge rightly? I imagine if your brother had a good heart and just followed "traditions of men" it does not mean he will go to a bad place necessarily but will be allowed the day of judgement to hear his case. Everyone has done things and has to account for even everyone word we speak (gulp)
If it was "done and dusted" that people are beyond hope, why have a judgement then? I guess this is similar to a court hearing with a judge hearing the evidence. But knowing that the Judge is good and true, merciful and understanding.
Matt 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Psalm 116:5
Because he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon him as long as I live. The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. Then called I upon the name of the LORD; O LORD, I beseech thee, deliver my soul. Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; yea, our God is merciful. The LORD preserveth the simple: I was brought low, and he helped me. Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling.
I always felt uncomfortable with the "Hail Mary full of Grace" prayer as I didn't understand how that could be justified when compared to Scripture. The Churches are full of gold, finely robed men, statues and looked incredibly rich to me when the simple churches I found later always seemed to me more filled with the Holy Spirit and not some distraction of traditions and display. Not men "clothed in purple and fine linen". In fact, I found small bible study groups more informative and uplifting as surely studying Scripture is the key to all faith in the first place.
Romans 10:17 17 “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
I always got some answer from the Priest that didn't ring true, like "early Christians worshiped Mary" but after digging deeper I found there is no evidence of veneration of saints or Mary in the Bible. Not only that, there is every indication that God wants us to only revere Jesus. They always went a funny colour when you ask these questions, almost like a JW when you mention Jesus....
Like it says in Titus 2:5, there is one God and one mediator between God and man–the man Jesus Christ.
We should never worship or venerate any human being. It is against the Bible. Even if a Catholic person can show you that Catholics do unchristian things like venerate saints or Mary it does not make it a biblical or a Christian thing to so. We worship God according to the Scripture, not according to the tradition of man, especially when that tradition so clearly violates the Scripture (Mathew 15:9). There is no possible biblical warrant for worshipping Mary or for revering her. This Catholic teaching is not supported by the Bible. Neither is it supported by a third century papyrus which may or may not be a reference to Mary, of which many use or quote to try and justify this.
I also noticed that many Catholics have "Icons" and worship them. The Commandments were changed to blot out certain words to justify this. But the KJV says
Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.
Exodus 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.
Having said that, I have known many good and true hearted Catholics who talk about Jesus all the time - especially a certain Priest who helped me learn much about Jesus in my youth. I do think many get caught up in their traditions, depending on their upbringing, belief in what their peers, parents and elders teach them and simply haven't questioned Scripture in comparing what God actually says, rather than "early writings" or what "Fatima told people". These answers never satisfied me, so I walked away. I think it is a heartfelt thing and takes courage not to run with the crowd and take the narrow gate. Many do not even read Scripture in these Churches, let alone study the word and question everything. Clearly, many follow the masses but this leads to the wrong place.
Matt 7:14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
It makes me wonder also about those who are "not saved" but it is Gods will that all are saved. If as someone said recently to me, "only around 1% are really born again Christians" then wouldn't that mean Satan had won? I don't believe that as I think the Judgement is for a reason. For God to judge the hearts and minds of everyone rightly. Because only God knows peoples hearts. Everyone gets the chance to give account, like any court on earth.
The painting of the strait (narrow) versus wide gate etching by Jan Luyken (1649-1712) was a true vision of how people follow the wrong path.
I do think though, God being a merciful God, judges all hearts rightly, no matter who they are or what they have been led to believe.
The day of Judgement is for a reason, otherwise why bother to judge anyone? Everyone gets a chance to give an account of why they do what they do and speak what they speak. As God is a merciful and righteous judge, will he not judge rightly? I imagine if your brother had a good heart and just followed "traditions of men" it does not mean he will go to a bad place necessarily but will be allowed the day of judgement to hear his case. Everyone has done things and has to account for even everyone word we speak (gulp)
If it was "done and dusted" that people are beyond hope, why have a judgement then? I guess this is similar to a court hearing with a judge hearing the evidence. But knowing that the Judge is good and true, merciful and understanding.
Matt 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Psalm 116:5
Because he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon him as long as I live. The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. Then called I upon the name of the LORD; O LORD, I beseech thee, deliver my soul. Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; yea, our God is merciful. The LORD preserveth the simple: I was brought low, and he helped me. Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling.
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I have close friends who are strict catholics, two sisters who live together. They are obsessed by the Catholic Church, to the point of going into there spare room , and rather than study Scripture, they seem to be chanting to the saints and Mary in there.I have tried to warn them of there folly, but as I am a guest there ( They live two days drive north of here) I am loath to say anything to strongly worded in case my annual vacation is cut short! So therefore I have printed out your post and will send it to them via snail mail. So thanks very much for putting into words what I could not. I may not be invited up there this Christmas season, again, but at least I tried!
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Roman catholic view is the church as an organization. Jesus teaching is the church is an organism. One is dead the other is alive.
The Roman catholic church teaches a false gospel. They teach that grace is received by works as in the sacraments. Rome has an incorrect and fatally flawed soteriology.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The Roman catholic church teaches a false gospel. They teach that grace is received by works as in the sacraments. Rome has an incorrect and fatally flawed soteriology.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Okay, and that's fine. It looks like you have an interpretation of the Bible that not only Catholics and Eastern Orthodox would disagree with, but many Protestants would disagree as well.
Many Protestants, I don't know what percentage, maybe most, would say that the person in the picture is not worshipping a three-dimensional object, but is worshipping the Christ that the cross reminds them of.
so sure you can have a particular interpretation, and all I would really say is that I disagree with that interpretation.
Here are the links to the picture I was talking about, in case someone is just passing by and wants to check it out
http://www.crossmyheartministry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/worship_cross.jpg
http://www.crossmyheartministry.com/2011/01/01/bow-down-worship/
Many Protestants, I don't know what percentage, maybe most, would say that the person in the picture is not worshipping a three-dimensional object, but is worshipping the Christ that the cross reminds them of.
so sure you can have a particular interpretation, and all I would really say is that I disagree with that interpretation.
Here are the links to the picture I was talking about, in case someone is just passing by and wants to check it out
http://www.crossmyheartministry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/worship_cross.jpg
http://www.crossmyheartministry.com/2011/01/01/bow-down-worship/
Hi Heyjude,
Good to see you again!
If I remember right, we had talked on a different thread about how you prefer to stick to the King James.
I know a lot of people want to use just the Bible, and not tradition.
But, as you probably already know, the King James Bible is very much a product of the traditions in place in England at the time.
What do I mean by that? Well when the translators sat down to begin their work, did they first look over all the many possible documents available at the time of the early Christians and decide on their own which ones to use? I'm pretty sure they just used a traditional list!
Good to see you again!
If I remember right, we had talked on a different thread about how you prefer to stick to the King James.
I know a lot of people want to use just the Bible, and not tradition.
But, as you probably already know, the King James Bible is very much a product of the traditions in place in England at the time.
What do I mean by that? Well when the translators sat down to begin their work, did they first look over all the many possible documents available at the time of the early Christians and decide on their own which ones to use? I'm pretty sure they just used a traditional list!
The harvest is going great! Like it says,
Psalm 126: 6. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.
I can totally understand the idea of just going in the direction that the spirit tells you to go, using a book that the spirit tells you. I've met some Mormons who just feel a burning in their bosom about the book of Mormon. They are convinced that the holy Spirit as told them that it is the way to go. Nothing can really be said after that, if the person is convinced it's the spirit.
After reading your post, the idea of looking over the Gospel of Thomas came to me. I found this interesting verse
1:1 And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."
Psalm 126: 6. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.
I can totally understand the idea of just going in the direction that the spirit tells you to go, using a book that the spirit tells you. I've met some Mormons who just feel a burning in their bosom about the book of Mormon. They are convinced that the holy Spirit as told them that it is the way to go. Nothing can really be said after that, if the person is convinced it's the spirit.
After reading your post, the idea of looking over the Gospel of Thomas came to me. I found this interesting verse
1:1 And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."
1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
Its a Catholic oral tradition of men as the witness of men.(Sacred Tradition). God's witness (sola scriptura) the greater does not accept the private witness of men and call them Sacred as a Devine authority .
You would think they would of at least given the word of God... Sacred Scripture first reference .
Bowing down to the image is used to put a face on the legion of what some call patron saints as a form of necromancy . When it comes up as gods in the likeness of men . Catholicism boast of 3500 and rising rapidly patron saints as workers with a familiar spirit .
When Hilkiah found the book of the law (sola scriptura ) he was empowered to put away the abomination that cause desolation .Human form in the place of our Father in heaven we pray one manner called this manner as a source of the unseen (faith )
Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
No such manner pray our legion of fathers and venerate/hallow their names as those who lord it over the faith of the non venerable pew sitters.
2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that the priest found in the house of the Lord.
Sola scriptura the words of the law which were written in the book.... the written check list.
When Hilkiah found the book of the law (sola scriptura ) he was empowered to put away the abomination that cause desolation .Human form in the place of our Father in heaven we pray one manner called this manner as a source of the unseen (faith )
Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
No such manner pray our legion of fathers and venerate/hallow their names as those who lord it over the faith of the non venerable pew sitters.
2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that the priest found in the house of the Lord.
Sola scriptura the words of the law which were written in the book.... the written check list.