Thief on the Cross

[Wansvic]

So the thief was out of luck, written off, no salvation to be had by Jesus? who was the first to go of the three.

The thief went to Paradise as Jesus said. He was not required to do what the NT church is required to do. No one prior to Jesus resurrection could access the NT spiritual rebirth experience.

The NT spiritual re-birth provided for by the grace of God is available only because of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Those who accept this, and are obedient by submitting to what God said to do become reborn spiritually.

 

[1ofthem]

The thief had no choice to be baptized or not....He was being crucified and killed with Jesus...So there was a major hindrance for him to be baptized.

 

[1ofthem]

The thief went to Paradise as Jesus said. He was not required to do what the NT church is required to do. No one prior to Jesus resurrection could access the NT spiritual rebirth experience.

The NT spiritual re-birth provided for by the grace of God is available only because of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Those who accept this, and are obedient by submitting to what God said to do become reborn spiritually.

That same Grace of God is still saving today through the blood of Jesus. If someone is saved and there is no opportunity to be baptized (for whatever reason), then just like the thief on the cross...I'm sure they will be with Jesus in paradise.

 

[posthuman]

No one prior to Jesus resurrection could access the NT spiritual rebirth experience.

((in context of being born again))

we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen​

(John 3:11)​

​

((establishing the interrelationship of rebirth and the kingdom of God))

unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

(John 3:5)​

​

((with regard to whether anyone has entered the kingdom of God))

tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you!​

(Matthew 21:31)​

​

​

here's the picture i'm seeing in scripture:

• can't enter the kingdom of God without being spiritually reborn
• sinners were entering the kingdom of God before the crucifixion & resurrection
• as early as John 3 the disciples had seen and had certain knowledge of spiritual rebirth
• clear implication:
  • spiritual rebirth before pentecost/first-fruits, before the resurrection, before the crucifixion.

what do you make of that @Wansvic ?
i put the same scriptures to @RickStudies but he ignored them. will you also? i think it's something that sure needs to be addressed.

 

[posthuman]

((in context of being born again))

we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen(John 3:11)((establishing the interrelationship of rebirth and the kingdom of God))

unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.(John 3:5)((with regard to whether anyone has entered the kingdom of God))

tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you!(Matthew 21:31)

moving to cut off some potential objections before they are made:

in John 3:11 Jesus says "we" know and have seen. the only people present are the disciples, Nicodemus and Christ. Nicodemus at the time hasn't seen and doesn't know about being reborn. either Jesus is weirdly speaking in 'royal plural' for the first and only time in the NT, or He's saying that 'we' meaning Himself and His disciples know and have seen the subject under discussion.

in Matthew 21:31 the word translated as 'entering' is προάγουσιν and it is present indicative active tense. some translations put this as future tense, interpretatively, probably because the translators held the view that no one could be born again until after Pentecost/Firstfruits, but the literal text is certainly present tense, active. they are entering at the time these words were said.
if your Bible has that as future tense, i.e. 'will enter' -- it's not faithful to the actual text there.

John 3:5 is pretty hard to interpret any other way than the plain reading.

 

[garee]

The four gospels speak primarily of the truth of who Jesus was; as seen through His life, ministry, death, burial, resurrection. The spiritual re-birth experience, of which water baptism is a part was not available to anyone until after Jesus' resurrection. The Book of Acts details what the apostles did in connection with what Jesus had taught them while He lived here with them for years.

John's baptism of repentance was introduced in the gospels. However, the act was modified as recorded in the Book of Acts to include the use of Jesus' name. This is because the spiritual re-birth, designed by God, wherein ones sins are remitted could not take place until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Through our obedience we die with Him spiritually and are buried with Him in the waters of baptism having our sins forgiven by the blood of Jesus. We break forth from the water into a new creation in Christ Jesus. Also required is the infiltration of God's Holy Spirit into our bodies. This is what is meant by us being the temple of God. We house God's Spirit in our mortal bodies and are empowered to walk in His ways.

It would seem you are confusing the unseen things of God with those seen of men and not focusing on the prescription (2 Corinthians 4:18).

The water baptism spoken of is in John 3:25. It is the not baptism of repentance . But the baptism required when a new priest desires to entered the ministry a ceremonial law . It switched hands when Christ came, to a kingdom priests from all nations men and woman alike .

The baptism of repentance informs us of the upcoming work of the Holy Spirit by which they should believe on God not seen not on John the last Levi under the old system.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

 

[bluto]

The four gospels speak primarily of the truth of who Jesus was; as seen through His life, ministry, death, burial, resurrection. The spiritual re-birth experience, of which water baptism is a part was not available to anyone until after Jesus' resurrection. The Book of Acts details what the apostles did in connection with what Jesus had taught them while He lived here with them for years.

John's baptism of repentance was introduced in the gospels. However, the act was modified as recorded in the Book of Acts to include the use of Jesus' name. This is because the spiritual re-birth, designed by God, wherein ones sins are remitted could not take place until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Through our obedience we die with Him spiritually and are buried with Him in the waters of baptism having our sins forgiven by the blood of Jesus. We break forth from the water into a new creation in Christ Jesus. Also required is the infiltration of God's Holy Spirit into our bodies. This is what is meant by us being the temple of God. We house God's Spirit in our mortal bodies and are empowered to walk in His ways.

Since you said this, "The spiritual re-birth experience, of which water baptism is a part was not available to anyone until after Jesus' resurrection." If this is true (which it's not) how come Jesus Christ said the following AFTER His resurrection?

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them (that is the disciples that are already saved because they are disciples) in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Now what is your excuse going to be wansvic? Are we suppose to just throw out the words of Jesus as if they don't count or mean what they say? What do I keep telling you to do wansvic? "THINK" and do your homework/Bible study before you keep embarassing yourself further.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
af

 

[Wansvic]

((in context of being born again))

we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen​

(John 3:11)​

​

((establishing the interrelationship of rebirth and the kingdom of God))

unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

(John 3:5)​

​

((with regard to whether anyone has entered the kingdom of God))

tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you!​

(Matthew 21:31)​

​

​

here's the picture i'm seeing in scripture:

• can't enter the kingdom of God without being spiritually reborn
• sinners were entering the kingdom of God before the crucifixion & resurrection
• as early as John 3 the disciples had seen and had certain knowledge of spiritual rebirth
• clear implication:
  • spiritual rebirth before pentecost/first-fruits, before the resurrection, before the crucifixion.

what do you make of that @Wansvic ?
i put the same scriptures to @RickStudies but he ignored them. will you also? i think it's something that sure needs to be addressed.

Jesus was the first fruit of the NT dispensation. After Jesus death dead people were seen. These were first fruits of those who died under OT dispensation mandates waiting for the coming Messiah.

 

[posthuman]

Jesus was the first fruit of the NT dispensation. After Jesus death dead people were seen. These were first fruits of those who died under OT dispensation mandates waiting for the coming Messiah.

what does this have to do with John 3:5, John 3:11, Matthew 21:31, entering the kingdom of God and being born from above?

 

[Wansvic]

((in context of being born again))

we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen​

(John 3:11)​

​

((establishing the interrelationship of rebirth and the kingdom of God))

unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

(John 3:5)​

​

((with regard to whether anyone has entered the kingdom of God))

tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you!​

(Matthew 21:31)​

​

​

here's the picture i'm seeing in scripture:

• can't enter the kingdom of God without being spiritually reborn
• sinners were entering the kingdom of God before the crucifixion & resurrection
• as early as John 3 the disciples had seen and had certain knowledge of spiritual rebirth
• clear implication:
  • spiritual rebirth before pentecost/first-fruits, before the resurrection, before the crucifixion.

what do you make of that @Wansvic ?
i put the same scriptures to @RickStudies but he ignored them. will you also? i think it's something that sure needs to be addressed.

Matt 21:31 - Refers to publicans and harlots entering the kingdom of God before the Jews because they accepted the message of John the Baptist and got water baptized when the Jews would not. This is expressed in Matt 21:25. Jesus had just asked where water baptism came from. And the Jewish religious people refused to answer because they knew Jesus would say if you knew it was from heaven why did you not it. They were willing to reject the very counsel of God. (Luke 7:30)

John 3:5, 11 - Again Jesus words refer to the message carried by John the Baptist and its relationship to the spiritual rebirth. Jesus said Nicodemus should understand. Jesus goes on to say we speak of things we know and have seen. Meaning John's message; that upon belief in the Messiah one's need to be obedient to the water baptism of repentance, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit that is soon to come.

Jesus goes on to say that He has told Nicodemus of things required here in the earthly realm and he has not understood. So how will Nicodemus be about to understand heavenly things. This comment indicates that heavenly concepts only become clearer upon one's adherence to the earthly commands that bring forth a spiritual rebirth.

 

[Hevosmies]

In Acts 10 they got the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism.

That puts a dent on that theory for sure.

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

 

[Guojing]

In Acts 10 they got the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism.

That puts a dent on that theory for sure.

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Good point. Personally, I think by the time Acts 10 arrived, Peter was sensing in his heart that the Jewish nation was not going to ever accept Jesus as their Messiah, with the first martyr Stephen.

And during the time of Acts 10 and 11, when he saw that God began to grant Gentiles salvation without them having to be circumcised nor water baptized like the Jews, he realized the time was indeed up for Israel.

Hence he was able to defend Paul's ministry to the Gentiles by the time Acts 15 came along.

 

[posthuman]

John 3:5, 11 - Again Jesus words refer to the message carried by John the Baptist and its relationship to the spiritual rebirth. Jesus said Nicodemus should understand. Jesus goes on to say we speak of things we know and have seen. Meaning John's message; that upon belief in the Messiah one's need to be obedient to the water baptism of repentance, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit that is soon to come.

but at least by the time of Matthew 21, the population of the kingdom of God is non-zero. harlots and thieves are already entering.
per John 3, no one enters without being born from above.

Matt 21:31 - Refers to publicans and harlots entering the kingdom of God before the Jews because they accepted the message of John the Baptist and got water baptized when the Jews would not. This is expressed in Matt 21:25. Jesus had just asked where water baptism came from. And the Jewish religious people refused to answer because they knew Jesus would say if you knew it was from heaven why did you not it. They were willing to reject the very counsel of God. (Luke 7:30)

this is also explained in the next verse:

For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.
(Matthew 21:32)
​

per v. 31 these harlots and tax collectors who believed the message of John, which is the message of Elijah, turning the hearts of the children to their parents and the parents to their children, these are already entering. ((Malachi 4:5-6))
this is also explaining that the chief priests and elders are not entering because they did not believe him even though they saw it -- saw what? saw these sinners entering?

also in Matthew 21:

Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:​

​

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?​

​

Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it, and whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”​

(Matthew 21:42-44)
​

He tells the chief priests and elders, the kingdom of God will be taken away from them and given to a people bearing fruit of it.
that presupposes that the kingdom of God is with them, that it could be taken away! how was it theirs, to be taken away? when did it become theirs? is it taken away? were they baptized, then acquiring it? baptized into Moses? if that is the case, the kingdom of God has been non-empty for a thousand years before Christ came, populated by those who were counted righteous before Him.
can anyone enter the kingdom without being born from above? John 3 says, no. so for example, David, or Daniel - are they in the kingdom, have they already been in the kingdom? if so, they were born from above. when and how?

and all this is before the crucifixion, before the pouring out of the Spirit at Firstfruits, called Pentecost.

 

[Wansvic]

In Acts 10 they got the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism.

That puts a dent on that theory for sure.

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

You are missing the point that both are required. Not that a specific order is necessary. Confirm this yourself by studying out every experience recorded. Not one time do we see the infilling of the Holy Ghost without obedience to water baptism before or afterward.

 

[posthuman]

also in Matthew 21, presaging the rest of the chapter:

Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them to Me. And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.”
(Matthew 21:31)
​

what/who does this donkey and her colt symbolize?
two witnesses bring word from the Lord, and they are set free and immediately sent, because the Lord has a purpose for them.
what/who do they represent?

 

[posthuman]

Not one time do we see the infilling of the Holy Ghost without obedience to water baptism before or afterward.

who baptized John, who was filled with the Holy Ghost in the womb ((Luke 1:15))?
was John in the kingdom of God?
if yes, then when did John enter the kingdom of God?

 

[Hevosmies]

You are missing the point that both are required. Not that a specific order is necessary. Confirm this yourself by studying out every experience recorded. Not one time do we see the infilling of the Holy Ghost without obedience to water baptism before or afterward.

True.

Can you tell me how many Christians you know who refuse water baptism? I know 0 in my personal life and Ive met HUNDREDS maybe THOUSANDS of Christians. ALL BAPTIZED

It took me a while to get baptized , but I DID, in a baptist church. and they put hands on me after that and prayed for me. Its just a NATURAL progression for a Christian to get baptized, they read the Bible they run into it and do it. NO need to put so much emphasis on it as some do in the Churches of Christ.

You know whats the crazy thing about them church of Christ folks? They go ON and ON and ON about water baptism, but barely even mention the HOLY SPIRIT or the SPIRIT baptism, which is VASTLY more important than a PHYSICAL RITUAL.

 

[Wansvic]

but at least by the time of Matthew 21, the population of the kingdom of God is non-zero. harlots and thieves are already entering.
per John 3, no one enters without being born from above.



this is also explained in the next verse:

For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.​

(Matthew 21:32)​

​

per v. 31 these harlots and tax collectors who believed the message of John, which is the message of Elijah, turning the hearts of the children to their parents and the parents to their children, these are already entering. ((Malachi 4:5-6))
this is also explaining that the chief priests and elders are not entering because they did not believe him even though they saw it -- saw what? saw these sinners entering?

also in Matthew 21:

Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:​

​

‘The stone which the builders rejected​

Has become the chief cornerstone.​

This was the Lord’s doing,​

And it is marvelous in our eyes’?​

​

Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it, and whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”​

(Matthew 21:42-44)​

​

He tells the chief priests and elders, the kingdom of God will be taken away from them and given to a people bearing fruit of it.
that presupposes that the kingdom of God is with them, that it could be taken away! how was it theirs, to be taken away? when did it become theirs? is it taken away? were they baptized, then acquiring it? baptized into Moses? if that is the case, the kingdom of God has been non-empty for a thousand years before Christ came, populated by those who were counted righteous before Him.
can anyone enter the kingdom without being born from above? John 3 says, no. so for example, David, or Daniel - are they in the kingdom, have they already been in the kingdom? if so, they were born from above. when and how?

and all this is before the crucifixion, before the pouring out of the Spirit at Firstfruits, called Pentecost.

You are not taking into consideration the distinction between OT and NT God ordained requirements. Jesus said that the kingdom of God (meaning entrance into it) would be taken away from the Jews and given to the Gentiles if they would not accept the entire NT message given by John the Baptist. Notice Jesus says the kingdom of God has been preached since John and every man presses into it.

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Though we still live out our life in a flesh body our spirit has been reborn. This is a reality that was not available to OT saints. The spiritual rebirth was not available until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Water baptism for repentance and the infiltration of the Holy Ghost/Spirit into mankind's bodies is exclusive to the NT church.

 

[posthuman]

The spiritual rebirth was not available until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

then how is the population of the kingdom of God non-zero before He took up His cross, seeing that in John 3 He says no one can enter it without being born of the Spirit and in Matthew 21:31 He says people are already entering, and in vv. 43-44 He implies the kingdom has already been present with non-zero population for perhaps thousands of years?

are these people in the kingdom of God contradicting John 3:5, or was there actually no one in the kingdom of God, contradicting Matthew 21:31 & Luke 16:16?

or is there no contradiction, and you are wrong about whether a man or woman could be born of the Spirit before the cross?
(('before' being measured in 'time'))

 

[Wansvic]

also in Matthew 21, presaging the rest of the chapter:

Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them to Me. And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.” ​

(Matthew 21:31) ​

​

what/who does this donkey and her colt symbolize?
two witnesses bring word from the Lord, and they are set free and immediately sent, because the Lord has a purpose for them.
what/who do they represent?

The donkey and colt represent the Old and New Testaments. The colt is the offspring that Jesus rode upon into Jerusalem.
I never thought about why Jesus sent two disciples. My first thought is that the Word says that two witnesses are required in order to prove something is true.