Thief on the Cross

[1ofthem]

Here, let me explain what's going on. wansvic here says that a person is saved by putting their faith in Jesus Christ BUT you also HAVE to be water baptized as well to be saved. In other words, if you put your faith in Jesus Christ and are NOT water baptized your not saved.

I (and others say) your saved when you put your faith in Jesus Christ and you are "commnaded" to get water baptized but if you can't get water baptized a person is still saved. What wansvic is doing is adding water baptisim to saving faith and water baptism is a work.

It goes against Ephesians 2:8,9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. vs9, "NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, THAT ONE SHOULD BOAST." It could not be more clear. And one of the points I have been trying to get across to wansvic is what happens to a person who puts their faith in Jesus Christ and it is impossible for them to get baptized under a million conditions like for example they are bed-ridden.

So, what is your understanding 1ofthem?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I believe you are saved when God draws or calls you and you accept and put your faith in Jesus Christ. I think you should be baptized, but if something happens and you are unable to be baptized then you are still saved.

But I don't think people should say, I don't want to be baptized so I'm not going to be. If that is the only reason for not being baptized, I couldn't be sure the person even has saving faith because why would someone just want to disobey for no other reason than they don't want to.

In Acts 8 the Eunuch said...here is water what doth hinder me. He got saved and was obedient unto the Lord. Nowadays there are many things that could hinder someone from getting baptized such as illnesses, lack of Church affiliations, etc. Yet, if those folks die before being baptized I think they are still saved.

But like I said before, if someone's only reason for not getting baptized is because they don't want to, then I would question this...because why would a child of God purpose in their heart to be disobedient just to be disobedient.

 

[1ofthem]

Yes, according to wansvic here, your baptism does not count. According to here and her church you "HAVE" to be water baptized in the name of Jesus only. Matthew 28:19 don't count so your not truly saved according to her view.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

What church is this? Church of Christ?

 

[1ofthem]

I had a friend a long time ago...Who was Church of Christ (I think, it's been a long time and I get confused with all the different denominations beliefs). He thought that if you were not baptized in his Church then you were not truly saved. We had many good Bible discussions and had some beliefs in common. Yet, deep down he must have still thought I was just a heathen because he kept warning me that I should get baptized in his church. I never did because I didn't feel led of God to do so and he could not show me scripture that supported his beliefs (in my opinion, anyhow).

 

[Wansvic]

There you go again, making more excuses and taking verses out of context. 2 Corinthians 13:1 has to do with matters of church discipline. The Apostle Paul is quoting Jesus at Matthew 18:16, "But if he does not listen take one or two more with you, so that "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed."

Secondly, if what you say about these so-called witnesses are needed to veryfy water baptism can you please point to anywhere in the NT that states who can and who cannot water baptize somebody? Suppose I'm "discipling" someone as Paul states to Timothy at 2 Timothy 2:2, "And the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to FAITHFUL men, WHO WILL BE ABLE TO TEACH OTHERS."

And were in my backyard and we pray and he comes to Christ. I then say to him, how about I water baptize you in my pool and he agrees. Does it matter that there were no witnesses? Is he saved and does his baptism count even though I'm a layman? See wansvic, you don't "THINK" for yourself. You just react with more excuses just like the oneness pentecostal cult who don't think either, instead they follow the party line.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I make no excuses and have provided scripture that confirms the points made. Naturally you have a right to your opinion.

 

[Wansvic]

This is true for all cults. They have indoctrinated and brainwashed their adherents to the point that none are willing to independently study the Bible and see for themselves what is right and what is not. To that degree Roman Catholics and Calvinists fall into the same trap (as do many other groups). As a result you could throw scores of Scriptures their way, but they would have absolutely no impact.

The danger for everyone is WILFUL BLINDNESS. When God shows us the truth in His Word, He expects up to believe it unreservedly. But the minute we choose to become willfully blind, He withholds more light from us. And that is why Jesus gave us this solemn warning: For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. (Matthew 13:12).

Then He went on to say: Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Your point could refer to you rather than me, as you imply, since we clearly see the Word differently. I have provided scripture time and again that points to the truth regarding the need to follow the instructions given at Pentecost. (Acts 2:38) Lastly, the Word states that broad is way that will lead many to destruction and straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it. (Matt 17:13-14) Consider what is broadly accepted as truth and then compare it to all scripture.

My prayer is that people on here will at least open their bible and study out the scriptures provided. Maybe they will see something different than what has been pumped into their ears over the years.

May God Bless.

 

[Wansvic]

I still don't get it...or why it matters?

Why did Jesus say to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then?

Don't they all three work together as one? So what does it matter if you just say Jesus or Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

Seeing I was Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, do you think my baptism is null or void? That's what I don't understand.

That's what I'd like to understand.

Jesus is the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Do a search of the scriptures.

 

[Wansvic]

This discussion thread is a very good illustration of the need to rightly divide the word.

If not, you will read instructions to the Jews as to the gentiles too. Confusion will then reign

The Word clearly shows the instructions were first given to and obeyed by the Jews. They were then followed by the Gentiles (Acts 10) and the Samaritans. (half-Jew and half-Gentile, Acts 8) This is proof that all nationalities were and are still expected to obey the instructions.

 

[1ofthem]

Jesus is the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Do a search of the scriptures.

Ok, I will look it up. But still though, even if what you say is true...Do you honestly think saying in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost would be wrong? Is he going to give us a big red X for using the wrong grammar or something?

That's what I don't get...If Jesus name equals the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost...What would be wrong with using in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost...If it does mean Jesus as you say, then wouldn't you have still covered it with that statement?

 

[Wansvic]

Yes, according to wansvic here, your baptism does not count. According to here and her church you "HAVE" to be water baptized in the name of Jesus only. Matthew 28:19 don't count so your not truly saved according to her view.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Correction: See scripture (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

 

[1ofthem]

I would like to know... is this Church of Christ doctrine or not? If so are there other denominations that also believe this way?

I guess, I should research this more for myself, but don't have much time right now...gotta to go to work!

 

[Guojing]

The Word clearly shows the instructions were first given to and obeyed by the Jews. They were then followed by the Gentiles (Acts 10) and the Samaritans. (half-Jew and half-Gentile, Acts 8) This is proof that all nationalities were and are still expected to obey the instructions.

Once you understand Mid Acts dispensationalism, you will look back at what you are saying now and wonder "How in the world did I ever miss that?"

 

[Wansvic]

What church is this? Church of Christ?

This concept has nothing to do with denominational beliefs. Instead of providing supporting scriptures that oppose the scriptures that I have pointed out many on here are throwing out opinions.

The following scriptures indicate how everyone is to be water baptized. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16 Paul) Jesus said to use the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. That name is Jesus as seen in the provided scriptures.

I am just sharing what is clearly shown in the Word in an effort to help others. Whether they see it, or accept it is entirely up to them. We all have personal choices to make.

May God Bless.

 

[bluto]

Jesus is the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Do a search of the scriptures.

What happened now wansvic? Your advocating the teachings of the oneness pentecostal cult with what you wrote above.

"Such adherents are generally Oneness Pentecostals who believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are not to be regarded as distinct persons in the Godhead, and that the name "Jesus" is the supreme revelatory name of the one God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."

This is "NOT" an opinion but the actual teachings of this cult. In fact, the following is what a stauch oneness pentecostal told me years ago when we had a formal debate. It's his definition of God.

"Jesus is the word, the God, the flesh, the Spirit, the man, the father, the Son, the Alpha & Omega, the Lord God Almighty, HE IS ALL OF THEM! Now, if you disagree then I highly suggest you do some research and Bible study BEFORE make statements that aren't true nor Biblical. Lastly, and very important is that you have to learn how to reconcile scripture or verses that "APPEAR" to contradict each other. This is one of the things were at odds with on this issue and just saying, "Well you have your opinion and I have my opinion." That DOES NOT CUT IT."

The Apostle Paul said the following at 1 Corinthians 11:19, "For there must also be "factions" (or differences of opinion) among you, (why?) in order thaty those who are approved may have become evident or manifest among you."

The point is the fact that there were factions in the Corinthian church. The Apostle Paul is not advocation these factions or divisions, but they do happen. Men sometimes get things out of balance. And the factions serve the purpose of sifting the loyal from the disloyal, the good from the bad. The factions leave the genuine believers standikng out (that's what the word "approved" implies by their loyalty, strength, and constancy. In other words, those approved by God become manifest to other men. Please reconsider your position.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[1ofthem]

This concept has nothing to do with denominational beliefs. Instead of providing supporting scriptures that oppose the scriptures that I have pointed out many on here are throwing out opinions.

The following scriptures indicate how everyone is to be water baptized. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16 Paul) Jesus said to use the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. That name is Jesus as seen in the provided scriptures.

I am just sharing what is clearly shown in the Word in an effort to help others. Whether they see it, or accept it is entirely up to them. We all have personal choices to make.

May God Bless.

Are you associated with the Church of Christ? Just asking.

Like I said, I had a friend who was Church of Christ...This sounds much like his doctrine on Baptizing. So I'm just curious.

I've read all the scriptures and cannot see that using in the Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost would cause damnation, not truly being saved, or any such thing.

I don't even know if this is what your implying. I really am confused with this. You're saying it is personal choice after reading the scriptures...but what do you think will happen to me, if I make the wrong choice (according to your interpretation of the scripture).

 

[Wansvic]

Ok, I will look it up. But still though, even if what you say is true...Do you honestly think saying in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost would be wrong? Is he going to give us a big red X for using the wrong grammar or something?

That's what I don't get...If Jesus name equals the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost...What would be wrong with using in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost...If it does mean Jesus as you say, then wouldn't you have still covered it with that statement?

Jesus is a name, whereas Father, Son and Holy Ghost are titles not names.

The apostles, and believers today continually use the name of Jesus when praying for healing, casting out demons, etc. Because the power to heal, etc. comes through Jesus. Many times the believers were told to stop preaching, teaching and performing miracles in the name.

Consider the following scriptures:

"And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." Col 3:17
Water baptism is a deed.

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:11
Jesus is the name of the Father.

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:31
Notice this scripture says that one MIGHT have life through Jesus name after believing that Jesus is the Son of God

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts 10:43
Again, through his name believers shall receive remission of sins.


"...be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,..." Acts 2:38
We see when sins are remitted according to the above scripture

 

[Wansvic]

Once you understand Mid Acts dispensationalism, you will look back at what you are saying now and wonder "How in the world did I ever miss that?"

What does Mid Acts dispensationalism mean? I have never heard the term.

 

[bluto]

Are you associated with the Church of Christ? Just asking.

Like I said, I had a friend who was Church of Christ...This sounds much like his doctrine on Baptizing. So I'm just curious.

I've read all the scriptures and cannot see that using in the Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost would cause damnation, not truly being saved, or any such thing.

I don't even know if this is what your implying. I really am confused with this. You're saying it is personal choice after reading the scriptures...but what do you think will happen to me, if I make the wrong choice (according to your interpretation of the scripture).

Please, don't let her fool you. Your right, the Church of Christ does teach you must be baptized to be saved and so does the following church. https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/bible-questions-and-answers/is-baptism-required-for-salvation I believe this is the church wansivic attends or advocates.

In any event, don't by her excuses that what church you attend has anything to do with getting water baptized or not. It makes all the difference in the world because (and this is obvious) false and heretical teaching makes a difference in where you man spend eternity.

Look how upset the Apostle Paul was at 2 Timothy 2:17-18, "and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray (why?) from the truth saying the resurrection has already taken place, AND THEY UPSET THE FAITH OF SOME." Need I say more?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Wansvic]

What happened now wansvic? Your advocating the teachings of the oneness pentecostal cult with what you wrote above.

"Such adherents are generally Oneness Pentecostals who believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are not to be regarded as distinct persons in the Godhead, and that the name "Jesus" is the supreme revelatory name of the one God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."

This is "NOT" an opinion but the actual teachings of this cult. In fact, the following is what a stauch oneness pentecostal told me years ago when we had a formal debate. It's his definition of God.

"Jesus is the word, the God, the flesh, the Spirit, the man, the father, the Son, the Alpha & Omega, the Lord God Almighty, HE IS ALL OF THEM! Now, if you disagree then I highly suggest you do some research and Bible study BEFORE make statements that aren't true nor Biblical. Lastly, and very important is that you have to learn how to reconcile scripture or verses that "APPEAR" to contradict each other. This is one of the things were at odds with on this issue and just saying, "Well you have your opinion and I have my opinion." That DOES NOT CUT IT."

The Apostle Paul said the following at 1 Corinthians 11:19, "For there must also be "factions" (or differences of opinion) among you, (why?) in order thaty those who are approved may have become evident or manifest among you."

The point is the fact that there were factions in the Corinthian church. The Apostle Paul is not advocation these factions or divisions, but they do happen. Men sometimes get things out of balance. And the factions serve the purpose of sifting the loyal from the disloyal, the good from the bad. The factions leave the genuine believers standikng out (that's what the word "approved" implies by their loyalty, strength, and constancy. In other words, those approved by God become manifest to other men. Please reconsider your position.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Bluto believe what you want to believe. I share scriptures confirming concepts. You give opinions and are hung up on denominations.

Just an interesting concept I'd like to share: Twist a couple letters around and exclude a letter and denominations reads demon nations. There is clearly only one truth. And the only way to find it is by studying the Word. Not following traditions of denominations.

 

[Wansvic]

I believe this is the church wansivic attends or advocates.

Giving opinions make you look foolish. Instead of providing others opinions as well, why not show scripture that supports your version of what Acts 2:38 actually means?

 

[Wansvic]

What happened now wansvic? Your advocating the teachings of the oneness pentecostal cult with what you wrote above.

"Such adherents are generally Oneness Pentecostals who believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are not to be regarded as distinct persons in the Godhead, and that the name "Jesus" is the supreme revelatory name of the one God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."

This is "NOT" an opinion but the actual teachings of this cult. In fact, the following is what a stauch oneness pentecostal told me years ago when we had a formal debate. It's his definition of God.

"Jesus is the word, the God, the flesh, the Spirit, the man, the father, the Son, the Alpha & Omega, the Lord God Almighty, HE IS ALL OF THEM! Now, if you disagree then I highly suggest you do some research and Bible study BEFORE make statements that aren't true nor Biblical. Lastly, and very important is that you have to learn how to reconcile scripture or verses that "APPEAR" to contradict each other. This is one of the things were at odds with on this issue and just saying, "Well you have your opinion and I have my opinion." That DOES NOT CUT IT."

The Apostle Paul said the following at 1 Corinthians 11:19, "For there must also be "factions" (or differences of opinion) among you, (why?) in order thaty those who are approved may have become evident or manifest among you."

The point is the fact that there were factions in the Corinthian church. The Apostle Paul is not advocation these factions or divisions, but they do happen. Men sometimes get things out of balance. And the factions serve the purpose of sifting the loyal from the disloyal, the good from the bad. The factions leave the genuine believers standikng out (that's what the word "approved" implies by their loyalty, strength, and constancy. In other words, those approved by God become manifest to other men. Please reconsider your position.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Again, my advise to you is to study the Word.