Annihilationists confuse types related to eternal punishment with the reality
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UnderGrace
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What is eternity and how do you know He did not fulfill that requirement. Eternity is not time.
U
UnderGrace
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I know eh, our finite minds we are indeed very limited of what it can truly grasp of the world unseen.
Thank you for answering my questions
Of course some of them were rather rhetorical but it does seem a fair way to conduct a discussion, to have each answer (when possible) questions asked It seems to me that if anyone sees people with Jacob and Isaac going to the Kingdom that it must be following the resurrection at the end of this age, sometime around judgment, at which time also the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven, which is God's abode. Do we know the timeline or exact sequence of events? No. People are not only confused about hell (the holding place of the dead) but they are confused about heaven also, thinking that is where those alive in Christ go following their first death. I have even been told all those who have passed from this world are up in heaven watching us, awake and aware and conscious for centuries while we crawl toward the fullness of Gentiles coming in... even though Scripture says, and again many times, that people sleep in death and in Christ. Those who are dead to Christ know nothing. Those alive in Christ? Not even death separates us from Him, for in Him we live and move and have our being even in death and sleep. To call soul sleep a cultish invention is an insult to Jesus and the very Word of God. Again, not that you did
Im one of them people who dont believe in soul sleep, not because im following plato or any of that nonsense. But BECAUSE, in the Book of Revelation, there are people in heaven prior to the resurrection, worshiping God, talking etc. HOW do we explain that one with the soul sleep doctrine?Those alive in Christ? Not even death separates us from Him, for in Him we live and move and have our being even in death and sleep. To call soul sleep a cultish invention is an insult to Jesus and the very Word of God. Again, not that you did
Absent from the body present with the Lord verse is there too, but I guess that one can be explained that its still true in the soul sleep doctrine since when you are ASLEEP you cant tell TIME, so you take your last breath and BAM you wake up in a resurrected body, and it took 0,0 seconds since you had no idea what was going on.
BUT ANYWAY, I chose to chase that rabbit trail, how do soul sleep folks explain verses such as these:
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.[Third heaven says in v2, how'd he get there before the resurrection!]
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
etc. I want to pre-emptively say too that my answer to most soulsleep proof texts is this answer: ALL OF THEM ARE TRUE, but they are talking about the BODY sleeping, us not knowing what goes on here, but the SPIRIT returns to God who gave it. Thats how I see it, thats how I was taught. Prove me wrong!
Tell me how do you see these verses if you got time that is! I'd appreciate it. Oh and I want everyone to know im writing in GOOD SPIRITS here, since we cant read tone of voice and this aint a salvation issue! I might start a separate thread on this soul sleep thing its an INTERESTING STUDY to say the least! Sorry for taking over this one @UnitedWithChrist once you stay here for a while you learn thats what I kinda do. IM A MADMAN
I think sometimes people take things too literally... especially from such a highly symbolic apocalyptic book. Do you know that when one sleeps one is aware of the passage of time? Could those people not have been awakened to witness what was going to happen at that time? Does them being awake then necessarily mean they were awake and aware for five thousand years, or however long it had been since their body returned to the dust of the ground? Eh, a lot of assumptions have to be made to say they were aware the whole time given what Scripture says in the likening of death to sleep, in the very words of Jesus no less!
Paul makes the resurrection indispensable to a future life. Without it they who are “fallen asleep in Christ as perished” (1 Cor. 15:18). “David fell on sleep” (Acts 13:36). “Some are fallen asleep” (1 Cor. 15:6). “Fallen asleep in Christ” (1 Cor. 15:18). “The first fruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20). “Concerning them which are asleep” (1 Thess. 4:13). “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; I go that I may awake him out of his sleep” (John 11:11). “Many that sleep in the dust” (Dan. 12:2). “And when he had said this he fell asleep” (Acts 7:60). This sleep is broken by the resurrection. “I go that I may awake him out of his sleep” (John 11:11). “Awake and sing ye that dwell in dust” (Isa. 26:19). “I shall be satisfied when I awake with thy likeness” (Ps. 17:15). “Many of the bodies of the saints that slept arose” etc., etc. The Bible is full of the sleep of the dead.
Absent from the body present with the Lord does not say you are awake with Him, in fact Scripture specifically speaks of those who sleep in Him.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
I am making dinner right now, just home from work, I do have more to share on the issue and I appreciate your opennessBUT ANYWAY, I chose to chase that rabbit trail, how do soul sleep folks explain verses such as these:
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.[Third heaven says in v2, how'd he get there before the resurrection!]
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
etc. I want to pre-emptively say too that my answer to most soulsleep proof texts is this answer: ALL OF THEM ARE TRUE, but they are talking about the BODY sleeping, us not knowing what goes on here, but the SPIRIT returns to God who gave it. Thats how I see it, thats how I was taught. Prove me wrong!
Tell me how do you see these verses if you got time that is! I'd appreciate it. Oh and I want everyone to know im writing in GOOD SPIRITS here, since we cant read tone of voice and this aint a salvation issue! I might start a separate thread on this soul sleep thing its an INTERESTING STUDY to say the least! Sorry for taking over this one @UnitedWithChrist once you stay here for a while you learn thats what I kinda do. IM A MADMAN
So I may not be able to answer all, some points are already covered though Soul sleep is so misunderstood, do we really need to see it as people literally sleeping? They are dead but their spirit is with God. Spirit (breath of God) + physicality = life of the soul. The spirit departs, the body rots, the soul does not really exist if we want to be completely technical about it, though spirit and soul are used somewhat interchangeably in Scripture. The main point is that Jesus referred to death as sleep more than once, and it is peppered through the OT and NT as well. Our existence continues, we in Christ are not dead but alive in Him yet in a state unlike this life, how could we possibly explain it? At the resurrection the Spirit re-unites with the body, does it not?
I think sometimes people take things too literally... especially from such a highly symbolic apocalyptic book. Do you know that when one sleeps one is aware of the passage of time? Could those people not have been awakened to witness what was going to happen at that time? Does them being awake then necessarily mean they were awake and aware for five thousand years, or however long it had been since their body returned to the dust of the ground? Eh, a lot of assumptions have to be made to say they were aware the whole time given what Scripture says in the likening of death to sleep, in the very words of Jesus no less!
Paul makes the resurrection indispensable to a future life. Without it they who are “fallen asleep in Christ as perished” (1 Cor. 15:18). “David fell on sleep” (Acts 13:36). “Some are fallen asleep” (1 Cor. 15:6). “Fallen asleep in Christ” (1 Cor. 15:18). “The first fruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20). “Concerning them which are asleep” (1 Thess. 4:13). “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; I go that I may awake him out of his sleep” (John 11:11). “Many that sleep in the dust” (Dan. 12:2). “And when he had said this he fell asleep” (Acts 7:60). This sleep is broken by the resurrection. “I go that I may awake him out of his sleep” (John 11:11). “Awake and sing ye that dwell in dust” (Isa. 26:19). “I shall be satisfied when I awake with thy likeness” (Ps. 17:15). “Many of the bodies of the saints that slept arose” etc., etc. The Bible is full of the sleep of the dead.
Absent from the body present with the Lord does not say you are awake with Him, in fact Scripture specifically speaks of those who sleep in Him.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
I am making dinner right now, just home from work, I do have more to share on the issue and I appreciate your openness
Soul sleep is so misunderstood, do we really need to see it as people literally sleeping? They are dead but their spirit is with God. Spirit (breath of God) + physicality = life of the soul. The spirit departs, the body rots, the soul does not really exist if we want to be completely technical about it, though spirit and soul are used somewhat interchangeably in Scripture. The main point is that Jesus referred to death as sleep more than once, and it is peppered through the OT and NT as well. Our existence continues, we in Christ are not dead but alive in Him yet in a state unlike this life, how could we possibly explain it? At the resurrection the Spirit re-unites with the body, does it not?
I'd just really like to support you here with this:
When God breathed His spirit into Adam, Adam became a "living soul". Soul is the result of God sustaining the body with His breath (spirit). Soul gives you the ability to feel, have wants and so on. Soul is what sins. In the Scriptures only souls are being atoned for and never spirits (I pulled all occurrences in the Bible). Spirit is never being redeemed/cleansed/atoned for. Because the spirit is God's breath that belongs to God, and as per what the Bible says, upon death "dust goes back into dust (the body) and the spirit returns to the God that gave it". So just as the living soul is made when God breathes His spirit into a body, in reverse, when the ghost leaves the body, the living soul is no more.
Upon death, the living soul, you and your personality, is gone, as these verses say:
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
This is why Jesus says:
Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: (living soul will be gone upon death) and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. You deny yourself and are born of the Spirit, and your spirit goes to God, and is one with God since it's born of Him. This is eternal life. One can only inherit eternal life if born of the Spirit. Your personality wishes loves etc. are all gone, Christ is what's being formed in you and the only one that stays. (I am aware this is hard to accept for a lot of people so I am rather just bringing it out for pondering…)
Jesus case when He died/rested in the grave was special He was separated from God since He became sin for us. Jesus "became sin" for us as the Bible says, not "a sinner", He was cut off so sin could be cut off the Body of believers. Thus no giving Jesus to tormentors to pay debt after the cross because He became sin for us, not a sinner. So He was only cut off the Body of believers ("when the Bridegroom is taken away from them") and meted out death as recompence.
Exactly.....Jesus did not use some imaginary fake place that does not exist to teach truth......how they can say that he does contradicts scripture on numerous levels....that is not his Modus Operandi and is as deceptive as it comes!
Your jaded temperament towards some is quite the straw in and of itself. There’s no contradiction when discussing the differences between a parable and an actual incident involving actual people.
Your jaded temperament towards some is quite the straw in and of itself. There’s no contradiction when discussing the differences between a parable and an actual incident involving actual people.
Many reasons why we do not literalize the parable. One in respect to the name Lazarus that some say . Christ does use real names in parables.
The word Lazarus simply means.... God helps the poor .
So then it would seem you approve of necromancy? And Lazarus that died was able to seek the Rich mans brothers as a worker with a familiar spirit or called a patron saint, a disembodied worker as a unseen spirit and could of warned the 5 brothers? . ?
The word seek (darash: to resort to, seek). is used twice .The first seek necromancy the living to the dead as a false hope. The second seek the one manner our father in heaven .Not favorite people in heaven, the legion workers with familiar spirits or called patron saint by the Catholics.
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.Isaiah 8:
That kind of mind set shows there is no light communication between God and mankind the curse that was on King Saul when God refused to answer . the curse a strong delusion to believe the lie, This is when Saul sought after Samuel using a false mediator a withch.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence .Luke 16
I think that alone shows it is a parable in a series of them all pointing to the same conclusion . The idea of sneaking in a literal interpretation just does not seem to make any sense.
Same here not getting half the notifications, for the last few days. I sometimes find out later someone replied to me when I check out threads to see what people wrote afterwards.My message box is being very glitchy
What fake imaginary as place that does not exist did he use to teach truth?
His holy place the hidden glory is the unseen source of His faith the new heavenly Jerusalem or Zion .
Which image did Jesus use to represent the eternal unseen place if not that which became as a pagan foundation of kings in a parable where God gave over to do what the faithless Jews should not us . . . sought after a king seen refusing to walk by faith after the King of kings . Overcome by their jealousy of the surrounding pagan nation.
When the veil was rent it rendered the rest of that which became a abomination of desolation. The things of men seen standing in the unseen holy place of faith. It was reformed and the government of God restored to another time period.(Judges)
The Holy Ghost this signifying,that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. Hebrews 9:8-10
signifying, ( 2 Corinthian 4:18 the prescription)
Which was a figure (parable)
I think parable is a misnomer, and this is the main cause for people arguing about this. Parable would mean that this is an analogy with some hidden meaning describing something else. But this story is still about what it says it's about - what happens to people when they die. Even though it's presenting spiritual things through physical language (separation of the wicked and the righteous accurately described as unbridgeable chasm). Spiritual things are invisible, so had to be explained in physical language, but they are truly there and exist. I wouldn't exclude Lazarus having been a real person too. Why not? He could have been simultaneously a real person and a type (for the poor, in beatitudes sense) because God did it on many places in the Bible: Boaz was a real historical person yet also a type (redeemer), Moses and Elijah were real persons yet also types (the law and the prophets)… Why not Lazarus also?
I think sometimes people take things too literally... especially from such a highly symbolic apocalyptic book. Do you know that when one sleeps one is aware of the passage of time? Could those people not have been awakened to witness what was going to happen at that time? Does them being awake then necessarily mean they were awake and aware for five thousand years, or however long it had been since their body returned to the dust of the ground? Eh, a lot of assumptions have to be made to say they were aware the whole time given what Scripture says in the likening of death to sleep, in the very words of Jesus no less!
Paul makes the resurrection indispensable to a future life. Without it they who are “fallen asleep in Christ as perished” (1 Cor. 15:18). “David fell on sleep” (Acts 13:36). “Some are fallen asleep” (1 Cor. 15:6). “Fallen asleep in Christ” (1 Cor. 15:18). “The first fruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20). “Concerning them which are asleep” (1 Thess. 4:13). “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; I go that I may awake him out of his sleep” (John 11:11). “Many that sleep in the dust” (Dan. 12:2). “And when he had said this he fell asleep” (Acts 7:60). This sleep is broken by the resurrection. “I go that I may awake him out of his sleep” (John 11:11). “Awake and sing ye that dwell in dust” (Isa. 26:19). “I shall be satisfied when I awake with thy likeness” (Ps. 17:15). “Many of the bodies of the saints that slept arose” etc., etc. The Bible is full of the sleep of the dead.
Absent from the body present with the Lord does not say you are awake with Him, in fact Scripture specifically speaks of those who sleep in Him.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
I am making dinner right now, just home from work, I do have more to share on the issue and I appreciate your openness
Soul sleep is so misunderstood, do we really need to see it as people literally sleeping? They are dead but their spirit is with God. Spirit (breath of God) + physicality = life of the soul. The spirit departs, the body rots, the soul does not really exist if we want to be completely technical about it, though spirit and soul are used somewhat interchangeably in Scripture. The main point is that Jesus referred to death as sleep more than once, and it is peppered through the OT and NT as well. Our existence continues, we in Christ are not dead but alive in Him yet in a state unlike this life, how could we possibly explain it? At the resurrection the Spirit re-unites with the body, does it not?
I would agree and offer to add
The soul seems to be the relationship of faith between two working as one. I use the term dead asleep .My teenage years. Or like the hibernation of a bear. The spirit, the essence of life.
Psalm 139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
The bible defines the words used.
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.11;14
Hmmm, you seemed to have left out Abraham’s name. Very interesting. And as far I as the first sentence in your second full paragraph, I approve of anything Jesus does, but I’m not suggesting that is what He did here.
I agree. I am not arguing that there could not of been a real person named Lazarus. Its not the point. The point is the conversation in order to literalize a person would be to seek for the approval of necromancy a possible conversation . As if God was actually communing with those dead in body and spirit. as some sort of hope of reincarnation?
The Rich dead man hypothetically sought after it anyways, even after the Holy Spirit said it was impossible to commune with the dead .
Just like with King Saul and King Solomon . . they had no faith that came from hearing God. They held it in office to a king the peoples choice a pagan foundation. . It was not God choice to give them a king in the first place. as a abomination of desolation refusing to serve God as king no seen .making the holy place of our father without effect giving it to the ofices of men as what the scripture s call a law of the father and kings. as oral tradition of men that end of making the word of God to no effect by those oral traditions of corruptible men
Then God took his choice and anointed David .In the next generation, Solomon. . it fell and the type was lost until the time Jesus the Son of man, the true substance was born .
1 Samuel 28:3-7 King James Version (KJV) Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land. And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa.And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek (necromancy) me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
Parable, para as that which comes along side and provide a different kind of understanding ( the understanding of faith not seen) It would mean that this is an analogy with some hidden meaning adding to not changing it or replacing it
When they broke the agreement to have a king as a outward representative like David walking by faith The prescription given in 2 Corinthians 4:18 helps us to mix faith (Hebrews 4) in what we do hear or seen the formula for interpreting or rightly dividing the word of God after the manner of parables.
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
It is the answer to that parable . If they will not hear the word of God as all things written in the law and the prophets, or Moses and the prophets (sola scriptura) then neither would they if Lazarus rose from the dead or Jesus would rise from the dead .They have no faith by which they would desire to please God. It works in those who do work with him to please him. . His yoke is easy lightening the burden . . we rest in his finished work. . our sabbath rest.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.Luke 16: 31
Then it becomes what does a person do with a literal dead tongue. . . desiring literal spiritless water H20 (no essence of life).?
Names are used to represent attributes as authorities . Abraham represent our unseen father in heaven as the father of many nations called denominations or sects. .Jew and Gentile alike.
The Bosom of Abraham represents the unseen presence of God. It can be called the 3rd level of heaven.(not seen) The level of faith .The place of his hidden glory
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Your jaded temperament towards some is quite the straw in and of itself. There’s no contradiction when discussing the differences between a parable and an actual incident involving actual people.
Agree, and we can safely say that Jesus did not delve into science fiction or fantasy.
Every setting has always been real. ....and this pretty much ends the debate.