meant to back Dan down, who you were replying to. Yahshua was there to fulfill......"the words written about Him in the Law/Torah.
SG
Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
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SG
meant to back Dan down, who you were replying to. Yahshua was there to fulfill......"the words written about Him in the Law/Torah.
SG
post 7234 wan`t sure what you meant, the caps were an accident I didn`t fix. gp9 had made me feel like yelling at somebody anyway.
Ok, so add details. I got attacked so early and so consistently since that I`ve never been able to discuss what I think about law keeping. I`ve been too busy trying to convince people that God`s law deserves some respect and consideration
i went back and looked at your early post history, and PS presumed you to be talking as tho a 'legalist' pretty much immediately, tho he may have been mistaking you for someone else who acts the same, who he had a history with already.
then, EG asked you a question, and you kept responding without answering the question, and EG kept asking, but you started getting het-up, and EG too grew frustrated, and from thereon the majority of your conversation has been tainted with animus.
why didn't you just answer the question? or say you didn't know, or something?
i don't think anyone here disrespects or fails to consider the law. the fundamental 'clash' is between the idea that we're under it vs. the idea we're not. the idea that we're not doesn't imply that we disrespect or reject or don't even consider it; it only implies that it is not the basic governing principle by which we live our lives or determine our actions/inactions by, and that we do not sit under it condemned.
it'd be great if half of us would stop assuming that when someone mentions grace they mean they desire to be wicked and think the OT is worthless, and that the other half of us would stop assuming that when someone mentions the law they think they earn their salvation as a wage by working at keeping it.
Got it...I did like the gardeners explanation of the "good root" grafting to the "fruiting vine". Synergy orchestrated by a Loving. Wise Creator!
Oh, many on here know the truth concerning:
(Pro 15:1 KJV) A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
so they go with the grievous word.
So we can A. Retaliate which is to stoop to their level where they can look you in the eye morally, or; B. Keep your composure and maintain control of your tongue, pray for Godly composure in the presence of those who vex you. They may be deliberately trying to vex you ar trying to prove you are no better than them. Choose which response is best for them....
SG
SG
Post, as usual, a very discerning Post,
but, there has to come a time when we must realize that there will be no 'common-ground or agreement'
agreed upon or shown here for the most part -
'Not one jot or tittle'.
nuff said...
but, there has to come a time when we must realize that there will be no 'common-ground or agreement'
agreed upon or shown here for the most part -
'Not one jot or tittle'.
nuff said...
Got it...I did like the gardeners explanation of the "good root" grafting to the "fruiting vine". Synergy orchestrated by a Loving. Wise Creator!
Oh, many on here know the truth concerning:
(Pro 15:1 KJV) A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
so they go with the grievous word.
So we can A. Retaliate which is to stoop to their level where they can look you in the eye morally, or; B. Keep your composure and maintain control of your tongue, pray for Godly composure in the presence of those who vex you. They may be deliberately trying to vex you ar trying to prove you are no better than them. Choose which response is best for them....
SG
SG
I`m not any better then them but I do repent and let the Holy Spirit give me a good bath. Mostly their minds are closed to anything they aren`t indoctrinated with but maybe a few are out to learn things. My views were about same as theirs when I was a young man but Jesus light wasn`t good enough for me. I needed more.
i went back and looked at your early post history, and PS presumed you to be talking as tho a 'legalist' pretty much immediately, tho he may have been mistaking you for someone else who acts the same, who he had a history with already.
then, EG asked you a question, and you kept responding without answering the question, and EG kept asking, but you started getting het-up, and EG too grew frustrated, and from thereon the majority of your conversation has been tainted with animus.
why didn't you just answer the question? or say you didn't know, or something?
i don't think anyone here disrespects or fails to consider the law. the fundamental 'clash' is between the idea that we're under it vs. the idea we're not. the idea that we're not doesn't imply that we disrespect or reject or don't even consider it; it only implies that it is not the basic governing principle by which we live our lives or determine our actions/inactions by, and that we do not sit under it condemned.
it'd be great if half of us would stop assuming that when someone mentions grace they mean they desire to be wicked and think the OT is worthless, and that the other half of us would stop assuming that when someone mentions the law they think they earn their salvation as a wage by working at keeping it.
Oh the question again. I answered it several times but they didn`t accept my answer. Asked me over and over like my answer to them was going to change. Who wants to have serious Bible conversation with somebody who does that? As to the rest I think most of you disrespect the Old Testament Law and have false doctrine tainting your opinions about it.
my position is that in Christ we have died, and our life is hid in Him, and that the law has no jurisdiction whatsoever over someone who has died. that it is for freedom that through this faith we have been made free, and that by this freedom the power of sin, which is the law, has been broken, the enmity taken away and the veil removed from the heart of those in whom He is pleased to make His dwelling place. that the children of the King are exempt from the tax. the free gift is not like the trespass, but it has likewise gone out to people of every nation and tongue and culture, first to those who were under the law, and also to those who never had the law. the law was not imposed on those without it, and all of the weight of the law, which was added because of transgression and in order to make sin all the more sinful, all this weight is removed - the living Word was nailed to a tree, made curse for us, willingly picking up all our guilt and bearing it, as Samson who took up the gates of Gaza, took them far off and cast them away.
what does that mean about the sabbaths given to Israel? well. enormously complex question disguised as a simple one.
allow me to use our example:
Letter: do no physical work on the sabbath
Spirit: ??
now, i've got a conundrum if i say the Spirit says 'do no physical work on the sabbath' because then i've got what i purport to call a spiritual, non-physical, true 'meaning' which is in all actuality a purely physical restriction to be imposed on the carnal body. these other two things that Jesus said on the mount, stand in contrast: they take the purely corporeal commandment and reveal that sin actually lies in the heart, not in the physical carrying out of sin in the flesh. if i take that principle - which is the same one present in His saying, 'it is not what goes into a man which makes him unclean, but what comes out' - and apply it to the physical restrictions of the sabbath commands in the law, then what is it in your heart that a person may do, which is tantamount to 'already breaking the sabbath' without ever lifting a finger?
if i can find that thing, and in my heart not do it, then i am guiltless with regard to sabbath, whatever actions my body does on any day of the week.
it's instructive to look at the man who gathered sticks on the sabbath, and compare him to the man who picked up his mat and walked on the sabbath, when Christ healed him. this mat was made of vegetable matter, not ultimately any different than the sticks the first man gathered. how was it evil for the first man, and innocent for the second?
park that thought for a second, and let's come back to Matthew 12. here the disciples were picking grain, and it was sabbath. now, 'technically' the actions that the disciples were doing are exactly the same actions that someone harvesting grain would do: pick the heads, rub them, remove the chaff. the law explicitly says, don't harvest on sabbath. the disciples, technically, were harvesting -- harvesting in very small batches, relative to someone actually tasked with doing farmwork - qualifies as 'artisan grain?' - but technically, harvesting. i think that's an important thing to recognize; this isn't just a human pharisetical tradition that says you can't pick grain, this is, the letter of the law, Exodus 34:21. it's not ((IMO)) that the pharisees had an extra-scriptural additional commandment according to tradition that you couldn't harvest grain, it's what the law actually says, being interpreted at the strictest sense. it's like getting pulled over for going 1/3 of 1 kph over the speed limit. yeah, technically that's speeding. but really??
this becomes evident in the very peculiar way in which Christ answers them: if this was about completely man-made, totally not divine-originated, wholly unscriptural traditions, then wouldn't Christ have said so? but what is His actual answer? it's amazing! He does not deny the charge at all. He gives two examples of clear transgressions of the letter of the law, calling both innocent, and says He is greater than the temple and Lord over the sabbath. and He says, the accuser would not have accused if they had but understood one thing: that He desires mercy, not sacrifice.
let these facts sink in.
He does not say 'that's just your traditions'
He does not say 'you're interpreting the law wrong'
He says He has authority over the sabbath and that the temple is of less significance than Him.
He brings up two examples of breaking the law without guilt.
okay, now back to what the internal sin against the sabbath could be..
as i've put above, Jesus's rebuttal was not about their traditions being superimposed on the law. Jesus's rebuttal was, if they understood that mercy is greater than sacrifice, they would not have accused 'the innocent' -- this means that their problem is failing to understand God's mercy, not holding people to purely human, extra-Biblical traditions. so, i think you have this part a bit wrong. this becomes important in trying to sort out what the keeping/breaking of the sabbath in the heart is, because if i'm right about Matthew 12, it ties with what He said in another place about the sabbath - that anyone who owned an animal that fell in a pit on the sabbath would surely pull it out. now, it's hard to argue that's not 'work' or 'carrying a burden' to heft out a thousand pound creature from a ditch. by the strict letter of the law, 'do no work' are you supposed to just let the beast sit there overnight? no! it's lawful to do good, on the sabbath. doing good supersedes the command, do no work. so there's a clue for us, that to stand by without lifting a finger while another living soul suffers, 'because, sabbath' is evil. and here's another --
.. if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words ..
(Isaiah 58:13)
(Isaiah 58:13)
to go my own way, to do as i please, is to dishonor sabbath. now, that's something i can do in my heart even while i subject myself to self-imposed physical inactivity. speaking is certainly not strictly forbidden by the command 'do no work' is it? but here, i am informed, that speaking idle words is not keeping sabbath. nor doing as i please - i can certainly 'do as i please' without working on sabbath. by the letter of the Torah, i may consider myself guiltless -- but God says, i would be guilty.
have i got anything for my blank yet?
Letter: do no work
Spirit: ???
let me suggest something, one word: rest. by 'rest' i don't mean physical inactivity. i mean, in a spiritual sense, rest. i mean, what God means by 'rest' -- as opposed to what man generally means by the word.
now, this is a very very long post already. and i've got to do some things and get to bed. so i apologize that it's not been edited well, and it doesn't really tangibly answer your question. what is the heart of the sabbath command is an enormous question, and this has only been a very brief scratching of the surface. i haven't even mentioned Hebrews or quoted Ezekiel or Genesis or dozens of other very relevant passages in the gospels or 'the 5th' gospel, Isaiah - there is a huge amount of background material still before we are even near the meat of this thing. it may take weeks lol.
so, sorry again for failing to completely explain the mystery of godliness in this post ((HA!!)) but i must with it, exit for now.
thanks for reading my drivel
more at a later time, maybe even some math
I had to be drug away from error myself. I was nervous, but then the Holy Spirit reassured me with waves of light and understanding of how to serve Yahshua and The Heavenly Father according to their will not the "Church" will. Up until then I never questioned the difference, but it doesn't take much imagination to recognize all of the differences between the sects and the powerlessness of the body to apprehend a steady course towards righteousness within!
I wasn't inferring that you felt you were better, nor did I think it, but I did hear your exasperation. I get it too. Shoot me a note when it shows.
Bless YHWH! Know and Keep
SG
Where did it say that Jesus would fulfill EVERY prophecy before He was crucified. By His very reading in the temple He tells us He was not going to fulfill ALL THE PROPHECIES WRITTEN OF HIM BECAUSE IT WAS NOT TIME YET
Luke 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Luke 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all
Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised
,Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luke 4:21 And He began to say unto them This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted to proclaim liberty to the captives and the opening of the prison to them that are bound
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD and the day of vengeance of our God
to comfort all that mourn
The Day of vengeance, the Lords Day, when He return carrying a rod of Iron, as Lord of Lord and King of kings.
Luke 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Luke 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all
Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised
,Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luke 4:21 And He began to say unto them This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted to proclaim liberty to the captives and the opening of the prison to them that are bound
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD and the day of vengeance of our God
to comfort all that mourn
The Day of vengeance, the Lords Day, when He return carrying a rod of Iron, as Lord of Lord and King of kings.
That`s a question that shows you`re doing some thinking. I want to give you a good answer so I`ll get back to you once I get a chance to give it my full concentration. Half the time I`m on the phone while I`m answering these
Ok, I had to look for awhile but I found some remarks I made on your question years ago. I got about 3 pages of scriptures but I don`t want to spend the time on all this unless you really have the interest. I`m not getting that from this website.I have to clarify something first that you got mixed up. I don`t not say Jesus would avoid getting crucified or that he would fulfill all before He was crucified. You`re getting that from the confusion being sown by my critics.
I said Jesus would have fulfilled all prophecy long ago if Israel had accepted Him as Messiah. I believe the Acts 8 persecution is what blew it for them.
The most direct answer to your question is this passage here:
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” (Luke 13:34-35)
A hen gathers her brood in order to protect them. If Israel had let Jesus do that He would have been unleashed to fulfill all.
At the end of the verse He indicates that He will not return until Israel is ready for Him.
I have a lot of other scriptures to prove the case but I`m tired of wasting my time. I`m getting a lot of flak by people who don`t even read, let alone consider what I`ve tried to contribute to this site.
Well according to this verse Jesus is the one we follow:
Acts 3:21-23, " 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’
and Jesus Himself says He is the ONLY Shepherd:
John 10:14-16, " 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
It`s not all cut and dried.
1 Corinthians 4:16
Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Philippians 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Yes and it`s a consequence of Israels failure to let Jesus gather them. See if you can see these passages.
“ But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. “ (Acts 2:16-21)
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” (Acts 3:19-21)
Well God says Jesus is the One to obey, (Acts 3:21-23 quoted above)
Jesus says He is the ONLY Shepherd (John 10:16 quoted above)
and the disciples Jesus chose say to follow Him:
1 Peter 2:21, “This is, in fact, what you were called to do, because Christ also suffered for you and left an example for you to follow in His steps.”
1 John 1:26, “The one who says that he abides in him must live the same way he (Jesus) himself lived.”
I think it is clear to anyone that is in Jesus?
John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”
John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life. Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”
Why would Paul be followed? That does not make sense? Paul is a fallible man... Jesus is King and Lord!
Jesus words are clear:
John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”
John 14:23-26, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. 25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
This is the first I have heard that we should follow Paul and not Jesus, this is odd to me...
If Jesus says there is ONE Shepherd, how can there be two?
John 10:14-16, " 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.