Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Noose]

He gave up His spirit and his physical body remained to be buried. Yet on the third day, what happened to his body? (John 20:1-31)

That's enough (the highlighted part). That's what resurrection is all about. You can also add that in that very day He walked with thief in paradise as He promised.
The other things that happened to the body was for a perverse generation that must see things and expect physical things to happen for them to believe.

 

[Noose]

I already explained the parable of the sheep and goats to you in post #3,167 and the good deeds/works mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed, but are not the basis or means by which believers are accounted as righteous.

*Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

There's a reason we don't have a demonstrated example of people being judged by their thoughts, it is because the works of love are the faith that the bible talks about and not some thoughts.
The idea that Matt 25 is descriptive of some fruits is simply wrong. Love beareth all things and the things contained in love such as perseverance are fruits but love itself is obedience.

1 Tim 5: 7Give these instructions to the believers, so that they will be above reproach. 8If anyone does not provide for his own, and especially his own household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[mailmandan]

How?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Doesn't this mean all men are justified and have life in Christ from the beginning?

How can that be if we are justified by faith? (Romans 5:1) and not all men have faith. You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. Would like to discuss this further, but I have to get ready for work.

 

[Noose]

How can that be if we are justified by faith? (Romans 5:1) and not all men have faith. You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

Can there be another meaning for this?

Rom 5:18 .....so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

1 John 2:2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

When Jesus died, all men received life eternal. Harmonizing scriptures must not result to believing OSAS if that's what you mean by harmonizing.

I have constantly told you, the kind of faith you are teaching is not what the bible teaches.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope.

No such thing as physical resurrection of the body. A spiritual body is spirit.
What reward can a spirit get?

'If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved,' if the foundation is solid.

Wow, you deny the resurrection.

Jesus ate, he still had the marks of his death, people touched him, you can not touch spirit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How can people continue to converse with that man?

 

[Noose]

Wow, you deny the resurrection.

Jesus ate, he still had the marks of his death, people touched him, you can not touch spirit.

I don't deny nothing, i believe resurrection is spiritual, and i also believe the reward that a spirit can get is life, that's all.

 

[Noose]

How can people continue to converse with that man?

Because humans converse with other humans.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Faith in Christ is the instrumental means by which we receive eternal life.

The natural man, void of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, (1 Cir 2:14) does not have spiritual faith, spiritual faith is a fruit of the Spirit and is not discerned by the natural man until he is born again and already has the promise of eternal life.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Ok.

What do you think of this:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

If you think that you are interpreting Rom 5:18 right, then you think that all mankind has been justified of eternal life. I don't think that will harmonize with the other scriptures. John 6:38 plainly states that Christ died only for those that his Father gave him and not all mankind.

 

[mailmandan]

Can there be another meaning for this?

Rom 5:18 .....so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

1 John 2:2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

When Jesus died, all men received life eternal. Harmonizing scriptures must not result to believing OSAS if that's what you mean by harmonizing.

I have constantly told you, the kind of faith you are teaching is not what the bible teaches.

At first glance this verse may appear to suggest that all men will be justified (accounted as righteous) but the context of Romans and the NT clearly indicates the reference is all men who are justified by faith in Christ alone alone. Paul is not teaching universalism or that all men will be justified (saved) which is clearly not in harmony with the rest of the book of Romans. Christ’s sacrifice paid for the sins of the whole world, but that does not mean that the whole world will be saved. (Acts 10:43; 13:39)

The kind of faith that I am teaching is the same kind of faith that the Bible is teaching. (Romans 3:24-28; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). It’s yours spurious faith that trusts in works for salvation that is in question. The kind of faith that saves is the kind of faith and trusts in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

 

[Noose]

If you think that you are interpreting Rom 5:18 right, then you think that all mankind has been justified of eternal life. I don't think that will harmonize with the other scriptures. John 6:38 plainly states that Christ died only for those that his Father gave him and not all mankind.

You are trying to disqualify scriptures with your interpretation.

It is also not a scripture vs another scripture thing.

Harmonizing scripture must not mean OSAS.

First before you go to John 6:38, you must address what Rom 5:18 means; that is harmonizing scripture.

Rom 5:18 says the result of Jesus' death was justification and life for ALL men. There's no other meaning from what it clearly says. It is your OSAS interpretation that fails.

 

[Noose]

At first glance this verse may appear to suggest that all men will be justified (accounted as righteous) but the context of Romans and the NT clearly indicates the reference is all men who are justified by faith in Christ alone alone. Paul is not teaching universalism or that all men will be justified (saved) which is clearly not in harmony with the rest of the book of Romans. Christ’s sacrifice paid for the sins of the whole world, but that does not mean that the whole world will be saved. (Acts 10:43; 13:39)

The kind of faith that I am teaching is the same kind of faith that the Bible is teaching. (Romans 3:24-28; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). It’s yours spurious faith that trusts in works for salvation that is in question. The kind of faith that saves is the kind of faith and trusts in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Rom 5:18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

You are reading everything with OSAS lenses when it is not even there, why doesn't it also 'appear' to you at first glance that Adam's disobedience brought condemnation to everyone?
Do you believe the first part? Did one trespass bring condemnation (eternal death) to ALL MEN? because the second part is just a reverse of the first.

The faith you are teaching is not what the bible teaches, the reason you can not reconcile such scriptures.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You are trying to disqualify scriptures with your interpretation.

It is also not a scripture vs another scripture thing.

Harmonizing scripture must not mean OSAS.

First before you go to John 6:38, you must address what Rom 5:18 means; that is harmonizing scripture.

Rom 5:18 says the result of Jesus' death was justification and life for ALL men. There's no other meaning from what it clearly says. It is your OSAS interpretation that fails.

If by "all men" you mean all mankind, then that will not harmonize with John 6:38 where it plainly states that Christ die only for those that God gave him, and not for all mankind, so the only ones that Christ gave justification of life to were the ones that God gave him and not all mankind. Could you be interpreting Rom 5:18 wrong, and it actually means "all of those that Christ died for, which were only those that God gave him? That is the only way that those two scriptures will harmonize.

 

[Noose]

If by "all men" you mean all mankind, then that will not harmonize with John 6:38 where it plainly states that Christ die only for those that God gave him, and not for all mankind, so the only ones that Christ gave justification of life to were the ones that God gave him and not all mankind. Could you be interpreting Rom 5:18 wrong, and it actually means "all of those that Christ died for, which were only those that God gave him? That is the only way that those two scriptures will harmonize.

All men means all mankind. Adam's disobedience brought condemnation to all men (mankind) and in the same manner, Jesus' obedience brought justification and life to all men (mankind).

Jesus died for us while we were still sinners; why would He die from some sinners only?

Your interpretation of John 6:38-40 is wrong. It doesn't talk of Jesus dying for some people.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

At first glance this verse may appear to suggest that all men will be justified (accounted as righteous) but the context of Romans and the NT clearly indicates the reference is all men who are justified by faith in Christ alone alone. Paul is not teaching universalism or that all men will be justified (saved) which is clearly not in harmony with the rest of the book of Romans. Christ’s sacrifice paid for the sins of the whole world, but that does not mean that the whole world will be saved. (Acts 10:43; 13:39)

The kind of faith that I am teaching is the same kind of faith that the Bible is teaching. (Romans 3:24-28; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). It’s yours spurious faith that trusts in works for salvation that is in question. The kind of faith that saves is the kind of faith and trusts in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Right, the context of Romans is all men in Adam, and all men in Christ.

All men in Adam are condemned, and all men in Christ are justified.

 

[mailmandan]

Right, the context of Romans is all men in Adam, and all men in Christ.

All men in Adam are condemned, and all men in Christ are justified.

Amen and well said! I will be sure to point that out to Noose. He reads the second part of Romans 5:18 as if it's just a reverse of the first part without making the distinction of "in Adam" and "in Christ." He is simply fixated on the word ALL.

 

[mailmandan]

Rom 5:18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Romans 5:16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Just as UnitedWithChrist has stated: *The context of Romans is all men in Adam and all men in Christ. All men in Adam are condemned, and all men in Christ are justified.

You are reading everything with OSAS lenses when it is not even there, why doesn't it also 'appear' to you at first glance that Adam's disobedience brought condemnation to everyone?

You are reading everything with universalism and type 2 works salvation lenses when it is not there. I understand about Adam's disobedience bringing condemnation to everyone. Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. I also understand that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) and that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23). The gift of eternal life is not automatically given to all men apart from faith in Christ, as you erroneously teach.

Do you believe the first part?

Yes.

Did one trespass bring condemnation (eternal death) to ALL MEN?

Yes, ALL men in Adam.

because the second part is just a reverse of the first.

Except that it's ALL men in Christ.

The faith you are teaching is not what the bible teaches, the reason you can not reconcile such scriptures.

That statement is the epitome of IRONY. So which false religion or cult are you mixed up in? You are thoroughly deceived.

 

[Noose]

Romans 5:16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

While we were still sinners, Jesus died for us. Jesus did not die for some sinners. He died for all the world and the result was justification and life for everyone.


Nice try but wrong.

 

[mailmandan]

While we were still sinners, Jesus died for us. Jesus did not die for some sinners. He died for all the world and the result was justification and life for everyone.

Jesus died for the sins of the world and His sacrifice atones for the sins of the world, yet that does not mean the whole world is automatically saved. The result was justification and life for (believers) those who are in Christ (Romans 5:17) and not automatically for everyone. (Acts 13:39; Romans 3:26; 5:1; 6:23; 8:1 etc..)

Nice try but wrong.

Back at you. So which church are you affiliated with? Are you ashamed to tell me?