Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't have much time so I am not being exact but will get you all the scripture you need this evening if you like so don't hold me to perfection this is all just off the top of my head
Satan hasn't died, he is being held by Michael in heaven accusing day and night until the war in heaven and he and his angels are cast to earth where he will have but a short time. the hour of temptation. At the beginning of the Lords day he will be bound and put in the pit where people will ask " is this the man that deceived the world" and he will be loosed a short time at the end of the millennium to deceive who he can and at the end of that will be cast into the lake of fire. The angels are also being held and none will die until the end of the millennium when the lake of fire appears at the great throne judgment. God is the God of the living not the dead. No one has died, just left their flesh corruptible bodies and put on their incorruptible bodies. If you do not understand the beginning you can not understand the end. Tell me, when did Satan go bad? Why is God telling Job that as He was creating the earth that all the sons and stars shouted for joy and sang in the morning?

can you explain to me spiritual death, what that means?

God told Adam, the moment he eats of the tree, he will die. die he not die spiritually?

Satan is dead as we speak. His soul may be consious yet that will continue forever. In this case one could day everyone has eternal life.

But is that what God promised us?

 

[DeighAnn]

CHAPTER AND VERSE ON THAT? Satan had eternal life uhh WHAT?

Mamma mia, its time for me to take a break again.

You are all correct. Satan was not promised "eternal life" he just lived" before there ever was a death". What is the word for that?


Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. WHEN WAS THIS?

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. (just to make sure everyone who reads about the" king of tyre" knows it is Satan being spoken of because we only know of 4 souls by name who were in Eden)

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth and I have set thee so thou wast upon the holy mountain of God thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

 

[DeighAnn]

can you explain to me spiritual death, what that means?

God told Adam, the moment he eats of the tree, he will die. die he not die spiritually?

Satan is dead as we speak. His soul may be consious yet that will continue forever. In this case one could day everyone has eternal life.

But is that what God promised us?

No Adam did not die spiritually, he was pronounce die a physical death. The spiritual death is at the 2nd death. Fear not those who can kill the body but Him that can kill both physical and spiritual. I will go look for it now. Satan stands behind God right now accusing us day and night to God.

 

[Melach]

maybe one day when i learn how to organize my thoughts i will write a post here about all those lose your salvation verses i used to struggle with

my issue was when i was reading them, i was lazer focused on it like "it says what it says" and i just forgot all the rest of the bible and only read that verse. i didnt think about all the verses about God keeping us, no one being able to snatch us, nothing separating us from His love, Him starting and finishing our faiths etc. all that verses where just erased from my mind and it was just "some shall depart from the faith" so thats why you got to be careful now or you will lose it.

im not a scholar im a drop out. but if some salvation loser wants to bring individual verses i can try to talk about them to best of how i know. that way its easier and i dont need to organize a list.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No Adam did not die spiritually, he was pronounce die a physical death. The spiritual death is at the 2nd death. Fear not those who can kill the body but Him that can kill both physical and spiritual. I will go look for it now. Satan stands behind God right now accusing us day and night to God.

I disagree

He was separated from God at this point, and had to be restored to life. (this is what spiritual death means, it means there is a barrier between God and man, and the relationship has been severed)

we know this by how he reacted (the things of God became foolishness to him)

 

[Melach]

Satan stands behind God right now accusing us day and night to God.

what about this

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

no more accusing.

 

[Chester]

maybe one day when i learn how to organize my thoughts i will write a post here about all those lose your salvation verses i used to struggle with

my issue was when i was reading them, i was lazer focused on it like "it says what it says" and i just forgot all the rest of the bible and only read that verse. i didnt think about all the verses about God keeping us, no one being able to snatch us, nothing separating us from His love, Him starting and finishing our faiths etc. all that verses where just erased from my mind and it was just "some shall depart from the faith" so thats why you got to be careful now or you will lose it.

im not a scholar im a drop out. but if some salvation loser wants to bring individual verses i can try to talk about them to best of how i know. that way its easier and i dont need to organize a list.

Doctrine is gotten from the study of verses. Do not use your doctrine to determine what the verses mean.

 

[CherieR]

So what are you trusting in for salvation? Christ alone or Christ + works? If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer?

That question reminds me of a dream I had once. In part of my dream, there were a group of people at heaven's gates and a man( I don't know who he was) was behind the gate like a gate keeper. There was this man who was trying to buy his way into heaven with a quarter with no luck. I walked up to the gatekeeper and said " I want to see Jesus". The gatekeeper acted as if he either did not hear me or was surprised and so I repeated myself, " I want to see Jesus" and the gate opened and I was through. I noticed I had this key ring with two keys on it and I asked the gatekeeper if I should leave them outside. There was more to the dream besides that though. If we have Jesus, we have the keys to heaven and we can share Jesus with others. Jesus is the way into heaven; there is no other way.

 

[DeighAnn]

I disagree

He was separated from God at this point, and had to be restored to life. (this is what spiritual death means, it means there is a barrier between God and man, and the relationship has been severed)

we know this by how he reacted (the things of God became foolishness to him)

Yes, he was separated from God because of the "sin and now sinful nature of the flesh". I think the misunderstanding is in the "spiritual death" part. I just have the understanding that all "beings" are souls and the "spirit" is the "personality and intellect of that soul"


Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
Matthew 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, he was separated from God because of the "sin and now sinful nature of the flesh". I think the misunderstanding is in the "spiritual death" part. I just have the understanding that all "beings" are souls and the "spirit" is the "personality and intellect of that soul"


Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
Matthew 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is the law.

think of it like this (I know it can be confusing)

We are either alive IN CHRIST

or we are DEAD TO HIM

In Adam ALL DIE, even so, in christ shall all be MADE ALIVE

And you were were dead in trespasses and sins, he has MADE ALIVE.

Spiritual death is just another way of saying that we are separated from God because of sin.

Spiritual life is another way of saying that relationship has been restored.

the penalty of sin is death (physical death is a result of sin, but not the penalty of sin)

 

[Macabeus]

I really think you have misunderstood the entire argument and what @gb9, @dcontroversal and myself have been stating.

And Mr. M...... I am finding you have not always been consistent, there have been times I do believe you have stated works are a necessity to prove salvation, or must be a result of salvation.

The dividing point is not time .....but the understanding between "should" and "will"

Soon as someone states works prove salvation or works will follow salvation (with of course the caveat if they are truly saved) they have made works part of salvation there is no way around this although people refuse to see it.

We are His workmanship, created in Chris Jesus unto good works. Works do not save, We are saved the moment we believe, apart from works. But we were spiritually raised from the dead unto good works, in other words, we are saved to glorify God, not live in a sepulcher.

 

[Macabeus]

I think evidence is one thing proof positive is another....so yes I would agree.

Where did I say proof positive. Strawman

 

[Macabeus]

AMEN......and he still rejects the verbiage of the bible

To him that works NOT, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly <--HIS faith is counted for righteousness......

To him that works not is clear.

Regardless of any any all that say we must have works or we are not saved

Yes, justified by faith alone. But we your argument is a strawman, because I never said justified by faith plus works. You are are embellishing, as you like to say. Why don’t you address what I said, instead of erecting strawmen

 

[Macabeus]

5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

We cannot earn/work for salvation, therefore salvation is distinct from service, it has to be otherwise we are trying to pay back God for what was freely given.

I really, really, really agree with the last line especially!!!

This whole thread is an exercise in burning strawmen. No One said salvation earned or by works. It is salvation unto works, which means salvation is wholly secured by the work Christ did, but we are His workmanship created unto good works. Is the new creation of us part of salvation or not.

Anyone who can live 50 years and be so apathetic as to produce nothing, as Dcs argument, has DEAD FAITH. Unless you want to cast James out of the Bible.

Perseverance. Colossians 1:22-23

 

[star]

Feeling a bit down today but just read in my devotion: "I will never leave you nor forsake you." Just what I needed to read. Guess what? I didn't have to do one single "work" either.

 

[Macabeus]

5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

We cannot earn/work for salvation, therefore salvation is distinct from service, it has to be otherwise we are trying to pay back God for what was freely given.

I really, really, really agree with the last line especially!!!

Justification by faith...check. Agree. But where does it say that we are justified for the purpose of disobeying Christ’s commands? For if you are not loving your neighbor enough to tell him or her about Jesus, you are neither keeping his command or His Word

When you are saved, you receive a new nature. If you try to change a dog int a cat, and it still barks, then it could be a matter of no change of nature

 

[Macabeus]

Feeling a bit down today but just read in my devotion: "I will never leave you nor forsake you." Just what I needed to read. Guess what? I didn't have to do one single "work" either.

Nope, you don’t. But I’m sure at some point you will. How can you possibly not?

 

[Lightskin]

Justification by faith...check. Agree. But where does it say that we are justified for the purpose of disobeying Christ’s commands? For if you are not loving your neighbor enough to tell him or her about Jesus, you are neither keeping his command or His Word

When you are saved, you receive a new nature. If you try to change a dog int a cat, and it still barks, then it could be a matter of no change of nature

You don’t have to tell your neighbor about Jesus. You can pray, asking God to open their heart and eyes to Him.

 

[Macabeus]

5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

We cannot earn/work for salvation, therefore salvation is distinct from service, it has to be otherwise we are trying to pay back God for what was freely given.

I really, really, really agree with the last line especially!!!

No doubt true. But Romans 4:5 does not cancel out Ephesians 2:10, does it?

 

[Macabeus]

You don’t have to tell your neighbor about Jesus. You can pray, asking God to open their heart and eyes to Him.

Read the end of Matthew 28. If you love Jesus, you will obey Him, even Though we know that it does not save us. What’s with this, is yourself being justified all that matters? Good thing the early church and past missionaries didn’t think like people here. We probably never would have had the gospel passed down to us