Not By Works

[SimpleGardner]

This is why I responded to your post quoting Romans 4:4, because the verse had already been misappropriated BY OTHERS NUMEROUS TIMES so I felt the need to CLARIFY. Here is but one example in which the text was abused. if you want more, I can probably produce at least a few, just ask.

Macabeus said:
Good job of putting the cart before the horse, UnderGrace. WORKS follow salvation, just as I said at least 100 times. I can see why it takes 102,000 posts to establish anything. Some of you guys either don't read or you have really bad memories

UnderGrace said:
and if they do not?

dcontroversal said:
My bible is clear........but Macaroni cannot accept the following truth...it destroys his religious blather....
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I said works follow salvation, ie come after one is already saved. DC argued against that point by quoting Romans 4, a clear misappropriation and abuse of the text.

Great examples of how the "spirit of division" can have its way among us. Resist it. The love of Jesus for each of us is intended to flow through us to one another. We should have one another's backs! We are of one House, we cannot stand sivided. Bless God for the "spirit of unity" which is there for us even those of us, self included, who don't have it all figured out yet! One thing I will say! I truly admire everyones passion. Let's not wear each other out with it, lets wear out the adversary!

 

[SimpleGardner]

Sorry to leave this out....There is definitely a serious disadvantage in this forum among us. I cannot see, hear, or sense your actions here. I have no doubt that if we were together at a table, many of the hostilities would go away, especially when we recognized the Spirit of God in one anothers faces. Without that dynamic present the adversary, the accuser of the brethren whispers to us. This is a tough one to overcome. We are zealous against trolls and the adversary wants us all to think each other are trolls. Pray constantly to have discernment in these matters and when in doubt, give the benifit of the doubt, agree to disagree knowing that your prayers will be heard.

 

[calibob]

I don't think any of the regulars here are trolls. However denominationalism and group identity with a specific brand of Christianity, I see as harmful. How many of us would sit at a round table discussion. 'daily', with a Baptist, a Lutheran a Pentecostal a Non-denominationalist and a Calvinist and reason together? With the Holy Spirit as the only overseer?

I would. And I would expect mature, civilized, discussions between equals.

 

[calibob]

How many of us would sit at a round table discussion. 'daily', with a Baptist, a Lutheran a Pentecostal a Non-denominationalist and a Calvinist and reason together? With the Holy Spirit as the only overseer?

I would. And I would expect mature, civilized, discussions between equals.

Anybody that couldn't abide by those rules could be voted off of the table! I would love a group like that and the only acceptable reading/study materiel is the Bible*. We could even have the first meeting to decide which translations (not paraphrases) are acceptable. *Except maybe a Strong's Concordance to help.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Oh absolutely, I reject the idea that us who are saved already... born again... given a new heart and quickened spirit... can "sin all they want"...


When God makes us new
He makes it so we DESIRE His righteousness in our lives

we wish to be shining lights and examples of His love

He castens us when we fall short
and encourages us to walk with a clean heart
through His word
trials
our brothers and sisters in Christ


we are not saved nor kept saved by the amount of fruit He produces in us
but we are transformed and wish to be fruitful for Him who saved us and loved us first
and
we don't want sin when we are in Christ


...though our flesh remains and it is still possible to fall short
unlike before regeneration, where sin which was a victory to take pleasure in

after being made new it is a shame which we wish to be delivered from

(but all glory to God... salvation does not rest on our own shoulders)

How can I not love a brother who has so much understanding! I think we all have to have clearly defined terms to talk constructively amongst ourselves. If we developed a list of key words in this particular doctrinal discussion and all settled the definitions of these terms/words and familiarized ourselves with these agreed definitions it would help.

For example; when Jesus spoke of "salvation" it was generally in reference to someone coming to a place where they saw their transgression of the Law/Commandments, repenting and then making restitution according to the perscriptive requirements for their transgression. Look at the example about Zacchaeus:

Luk 19:1-10 KJV And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho. (2) And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich. (3) And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature. (4) And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way. (5) And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. (6) And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. (7) And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. (8) And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. (9) And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. (10) For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.


Zacchaeus repented and made restitution double the requirement, and gave half of his goods to the poor! He aligned himself with the Law! Jesus called this "Salvation"! His heart was saved from being sinful and his actions reflected the fruit of that saving.

Why did God reaffirm His promise to Abraham when speaking to Isaac?

Gen 26:4-5 KJV And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; (5) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham validated to God His FAITH!

As James put it:
Jas 2:20-26 KJV But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (25) Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? (26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


We are all saying the same thing.

Bless YHWH, Know and Keep; Jn 14:21

 

[SimpleGardner]

Anybody that couldn't abide by those rules could be voted off of the table! I would love a group like that and the only acceptable reading/study materiel is the Bible*. We could even have the first meeting to decide which translations (not paraphrases) are acceptable. *Except maybe a Strong's Concordance to help.

If there is one absolute God is a god of "order" most people overlook this aspect of His character. Too often we flail at what we dislike, but as we only have one account of Jesus in the market with vendors not disciples we should recognize the need for restraint. I can imagine the temple being fashioned like the one in Heaven that Jesus just couldn't reconcile what He saw with it's Heavenly likeness and so...

If you choose to try a virtual table discussion please consider me.

 

[calibob]

If there is one absolute God is a god of "order" most people overlook this aspect of His character. Too often we flail at what we dislike, but as we only have one account of Jesus in the market with vendors not disciples we should recognize the need for restraint. I can imagine the temple being fashioned like the one in Heaven that Jesus just couldn't reconcile what He saw with it's Heavenly likeness and so...

If you choose to try a virtual table discussion please consider me.

If I can figure out how to keep the scoffers and those who believe themselves the christian enforcement arm of Levitical laws away, you are invited for sure.

 

[UnderGrace]

Yep, it's funny that a person would use a verse about the grace of God to prove hypothetical apathy and laziness in Christians, as DC did. And then when someone is arguing works follow as a result of love and gratitude, you come along and repeat the same verse, which indicates, that if you were reading along, you agreed with DC's "grace plus apathy and laziness" argument.

I really think you have misunderstood the entire argument and what @gb9, @dcontroversal and myself have been stating.

And Mr. M...... I am finding you have not always been consistent, there have been times I do believe you have stated works are a necessity to prove salvation, or must be a result of salvation.

The dividing point is not time .....but the understanding between "should" and "will"

Soon as someone states works prove salvation or works will follow salvation (with of course the caveat if they are truly saved) they have made works part of salvation there is no way around this although people refuse to see it.

 

[BillG]

Sorry to leave this out....There is definitely a serious disadvantage in this forum among us. I cannot see, hear, or sense your actions here. I have no doubt that if we were together at a table, many of the hostilities would go away, especially when we recognized the Spirit of God in one anothers faces. Without that dynamic present the adversary, the accuser of the brethren whispers to us. This is a tough one to overcome. We are zealous against trolls and the adversary wants us all to think each other are trolls. Pray constantly to have discernment in these matters and when in doubt, give the benifit of the doubt, agree to disagree knowing that your prayers will be heard.

Said it many times myself.

Sat around a table.
Maybe things would be different.
Maybe the voice we hear and the face we see overcomes words that are typed in bold and etc will be replaced.

 

[DeighAnn]

I still don't get it.
I really gets me down that I don't get it.
It's the Romans 7? Is this about it?

Are we talking dual nature here?

I know the words used which is translated as nature and flesh (in different bibles) is the Greek word Sarx which is basically flesh.

I relate to Paul in Romans 7.
But really don't get the flesh bit.

For me if I'm honest when I sin I think it's my old nature that mainfests itself in the flesh and yet I hate it, which is my new nature.

So I suppose I'm entranched in thinking that I have a dual nature whilst on earth.

It really does my head in.
I'm at the point of giving up trying to get it, been like that for years but every time it comes up it grabs my attention.

@dcontroversal please do not read the above. I can see you with your head in your hands and shaking it, and then reaching out to grab me by shirt collar and shout "What part of this do you not get?

Oops too late you have already read it.
I'm going into hiding.
Only joking bro, I love my brother from another mother.

Right who wants to play hide and seek.
I'll hide and you seek.

Probably just saying what others have but haven't read the 5094 previous pages and decided to just start here with my 2 cents.
Everyone walking around, who has never heard of or never cared about God is walking around, self willed.
When you learn of God, how you came about, you are either captured by Him, or you walk away. When you find yourself with questions about Him, you will seek out His Word. As you start learning or "growing" in the Word, and you accept the TRUTH, it becomes a "wish, want, desire, need" to the point of one day, you need to make it official. So you are baptized into the family of God. You may not have even noticed it per se, but one day when you evaluate who you are, you find your life is no longer self willed, but it is God Willed. You realize God has a plan for you. The reason going against His laws are a sin is you leave the path of His will for you and jump back into your self will. Can our "perception" of what is "really" going on compare with what GOD KNOWS? Nope. Wouldn't it be great if we could just leave this flesh behind. Built into our flesh are the "wish wants desires" that are at odds with the spiritual wish wants and desires. Yes a dual nature. It is a spiritual character builder. Is the spiritual part of you that loves and wants to follow Gods Will stronger that the flesh? Every time you feel "convicted" of something you CHOOSE to either follow what the flesh is demanding or what God is. One day you find, the callings of the flesh have almost ceased. Your knowledge of God has grown to the point of realizing that this "flesh" life, is really for one reason only. To please God. The rest is all vanity. This flesh will end but you have been offered the promise of an eternal life, NOT IN THE FLESH, therefore that dual nature Gone. All that is left is YOU, the YOU God created you to be. The specific Spiritual DNA person God loves and can be proud of like when He bragged to Satan, What about my good and faithful servant JOB. A faithful, disciplined, God fearing soul who never lost a bit of faith in God whether he had it all or had nothing knowing of the promises of God.

 

[BillG]

Someone please tell me what is offensive about this post.

Nothing offensive that I can see.

 

[BillG]

I really think you have misunderstood the entire argument and what @gb9, @dcontroversal and myself have been stating.

And Mr. M...... I am finding you have not always been consistent, there have been times I do believe you have stated works are a necessity to prove salvation, or must be a result of salvation.

The dividing point is not time .....but the understanding between "should" and "will"

Soon as someone states works prove salvation or works will follow salvation (with of course the caveat if they are truly saved) they have made works part of salvation there is no way around this although people refuse to see it.

Personally I think its a failure of communication and listening.
To be honest when @Macabeus came to this thread I thought he was a fruit inspector and was promoting works saved and was evidence of salvation.

@Macabeus has said that works do not save but are evidence.

This I agree with.
Not before God but before men.
What I disagree with is counting the number of works.
But if our works before men are of God then it is evidence we are in Jesus.

Jesus said "By this the world will know"

There is a difference between someone who profess faith and wants to be like Jesus and one who does not.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Every time I read these I sink low realizing each time anew that I am not keeping these in mind as I ought. Notice the one about Grace.

(Pro 15:33 KJV) The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.
(Pro 18:12 KJV) Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.
(Pro 22:4 KJV) By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life.
(Act 20:19 KJV) Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
(Col 2:18 KJV) Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
(Col 2:23 KJV) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
(1Pe 5:5 KJV) Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.



Sometimes, it is so far back, we forget how humbled we were when we realized we were sinners against God and how condemned we could have been were it not for the grace of God who gave us our justification through Jesus' sacrifice, right where we were as that humility yielded way to repentance and repentance to salvation! What a glorious place in time where we literally passed from death to life...


(Exo 10:3 KJV) And Moses and Aaron came in unto Pharaoh, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before me? let my people go, that they may serve me.
(Deu 8:2 KJV) And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
(Deu 8:16 KJV) Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;
(2Ch 7:14 KJV) If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
(2Ch 34:27 KJV) Because thine heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, and humbledst thyself before me, and didst rend thy clothes, and weep before me; I have even heard thee also, saith the LORD.
(Job 22:29 KJV) When men are cast down, then thou shalt say, There is lifting up; and he shall save the humble person.
(Psa 9:12 KJV) When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble.
(Psa 10:12 KJV) Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.
(Psa 10:17 KJV) LORD, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:
(Psa 34:2 KJV) My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.
(Psa 69:32 KJV) The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.
(Pro 6:3 KJV) Do this now, my son, and deliver thyself, when thou art come into the hand of thy friend; go, humble thyself, and make sure thy friend.
(Pro 16:19 KJV) Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.
(Pro 29:23 KJV) A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.
(Isa 57:15 KJV) For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
(Jer 13:18 KJV) Say unto the king and to the queen, Humble yourselves, sit down: for your principalities shall come down, even the crown of your glory.
(Mat 18:4 KJV) Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 23:12 KJV) And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
(2Co 12:21 KJV) And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
(Jas 4:6 KJV) But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
(Jas 4:10 KJV) Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
(1Pe 5:5 KJV) Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
(1Pe 5:6 KJV) Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:


I have considered; If Jesus was "Meek" and "Lowly" Matt 11:29 and the following is true which it absolutely is:

(Joh 14:9 KJV) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Then Jesus and the Heavenly Father are Meek and Lowly! Gives new meaning to all the passages where Jesus admonished us;


(Mat 18:4 KJV) Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

(Mat 23:11 KJV) But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Luk 22:25-26 KJV And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. (26) But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

 

[dcontroversal]

see here you go. someone disagrees or questions what you say, you go off on a tirade.

this is why I am not going to interact with you , mr. " I know everything and I am never wrong".
you need to learn some humility and let things go.

AMEN......and he still rejects the verbiage of the bible

To him that works NOT, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly <--HIS faith is counted for righteousness......

To him that works not is clear.

Regardless of any any all that say we must have works or we are not saved

 

[UnderGrace]

Personally I think its a failure of communication and listening.
To be honest when @Macabeus came to this thread I thought he was a fruit inspector and was promoting works saved and was evidence of salvation.

@Macabeus has said that works do not save but are evidence.

This I agree with.
Not before God but before men.
What I disagree with is counting the number of works.
But if our works before men are of God then it is evidence we are in Jesus.

Jesus said "By this the world will know"

There is a difference between someone who profess faith and wants to be like Jesus and one who does not.

I think evidence is one thing proof positive is another....so yes I would agree.

 

[dcontroversal]

all this started about 3-4 months ago, when doctroversial said something not manifesting the fruits of the Spirt for 50 years, in response to macbus saying that one will instantly start doing good works.

macbus went off on a weeks long tirade about this, it's been months and he is STILL going off about it.

AMEN to that..........and on every turn mouthing me and trying to make me look bad or prove me wrong....

To hi that worketh NOT, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly <---HIS faith is counted for righteousness

 

[dcontroversal]

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


there are two sorts of brances here


branches that bare fruit
_____
"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches void of any fruit
____
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"


this whole thing is largely an example of the power of CHRIST in His own

compared to the lack of power in fakers

dont you understand when this is being said?

what judas already did and what was about to happen?

.....
this is about two separate sorts of men/women who claim to be in Him and are part of the congregation


nothing to do with how to earn salvation

(it is a gift by grace through faith)

nothing to do with the loss of salvation to one of His




void of any fruit what so ever would also mean no faith...

that would be a powerless tree

but men can't see all like God

man may say "where is this persons fruit" through a series of poor encounters

but God may know them and be working in them already


... even peter denied Jesus 3 times

there were men who could have clearly stated "he is not a believer"

but God knew better

Just to point out...

God prunes those in Christ

MEN are the ones casting the branches into the fire....NOT GOD

 

[theanointedwinner]

so, how are people's illogical silly-gism so far?

 

[theanointedwinner]

especially false doctrine

 

[UnderGrace]

AMEN......and he still rejects the verbiage of the bible

To him that works NOT, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly <--HIS faith is counted for righteousness......

To him that works not is clear.

Regardless of any any all that say we must have works or we are not saved

5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

We cannot earn/work for salvation, therefore salvation is distinct from service, it has to be otherwise we are trying to pay back God for what was freely given.

I really, really, really agree with the last line especially!!!