Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

Noose · Sep 5, 2019

The answer is already in the two verses quoted earlier, it seems you don't like it.
The answer is yes and no.

Yes because the prize here doesn't imply being given something because of what you have done or accomplished rather a result after making it through. It is like saying, "the one who makes it through the night will be crowned by the day". Simply means you'll make it to the day if you persevere the night. It doesn't mean that the day will be handed over to you.

No for the thoughts that eternal life is some object to be handed over after accomplishing something.

You cross over from death to life.

Noose · Sep 5, 2019

Q. What are we being saved from?
A. Sin/ corruption of this world (eternal death aka second death)

Q. Who is saved?
A. Those that will not participate in the second death (Judgement that will done some 1000 years after the end of this age)

It is already clear that death is a gate to some new form of living. Our current form of life is the one of struggle because flesh antagonizes our understanding, whatever lies beyond the first gate is a promise that we hope to achieve when we shed this antagonist called flesh.

Q. Can we now say that we have already overcome Sin/ corruption of this world (eternal death aka second death)?
A.??!!

2 Pet 3:17Therefore,beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

PennEd · Sep 5, 2019

Noose said:

Has nothing to do with what I like or dislike. It is about what the truth is. Your answer is a classic cop out. You are saying Jesus PLUS works is necessary for Salvation. A patently false gospel.

I have NO problem saying unequivocally that Eternal life is an irrevocable gift from God by faith in the substitutionary atoning sacrificial death of Jesus Christ, and His subsequent resurrection.

Paul said he would be DISQUALIFIED from receiving the prize if HE didn't perform in a certain manner.

YOU are saying Paul means if HE doesn't PERFORM in a certain manner he would lose his Salvation. Therefore you are saying YOUR salvation is dependent on YOU, and YOUR performance, and not Jesus. Paul NEVER said that.

When speaking about being IN Christ, eternally saved, Paul said THIS:

Romans 8:38-39 New King James Version (NKJV)
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Noose · Sep 5, 2019

PennEd said:

The promises are true for those that will stand victorious in the end, these are the elect. The promises are not necessarily true for those that appoint themselves or think themselves as being elect (aka eternal security proponents). God knows because He is the beginning and the end, how can He not know. But it is very unwise for us to think ourselves into the elect instead of working our own salvation in fear and trembling.

We know for sure, thanks to the scriptures, that majority of those that think themselves into the elect category (eternal security) shall not make it. This is a real demonstration of judgement day:

Matt 25:
34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

Q. If these people believed in eternal security or if they knew they have an eternal life that is irrevocable from the day they believed, why are they still surprised that they made it?

Noose · Sep 5, 2019

PennEd said:

Has nothing to do with what I like or dislike. It is about what the truth is. Your answer is a classic cop out. You are saying Jesus PLUS works is necessary for Salvation. A patently false gospel.

I have NO problem saying unequivocally that Eternal life is an irrevocable gift from God by faith in the substitutionary atoning sacrificial death of Jesus Christ, and His subsequent resurrection.

Paul said he would be DISQUALIFIED from receiving the prize if HE didn't perform in a certain manner.

YOU are saying Paul means if HE doesn't PERFORM in a certain manner he would lose his Salvation. Therefore you are saying YOUR salvation is dependent on YOU, and YOUR performance, and not Jesus. Paul NEVER said that.

When speaking about being IN Christ, eternally saved, Paul said THIS:

Romans 8:38-39 New King James Version (NKJV)
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Q. Do the elect know that they are the elect?

PennEd · Sep 5, 2019

Noose said:

I'll respond to the other post in a bit, but this one is easy.
1 John 5:13 New King James Version (NKJV)
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, [a]and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

John is telling us that have believed on Jesus that we may KNOW we are saved.

If you want to call us who KNOW we are saved because we believe in Jesus Christ, Who He is, and what He has done, the elect, knock yourself out!

Noose · Sep 5, 2019

PennEd said:

Isa 65:1“I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me;I was found by those who did not seek Me. I said,‘Here I am! Here I am!’ to a nation that did not call My name.

Isa 58:
1“Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
Raise your voice like a trumpet.
Declare to my people their rebellion
and to the descendants of Jacob their sins.
2For day after day they seek me out;
they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions
and seem eager for God to come near them.
....
5Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
only a day for people to humble themselves?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
and for lying in sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
a day acceptable to the Lord?
6“Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?

Indeed, the first shall be the last and the last shall be the first. Not as easy as you think.

ForestGreenCook · Sep 5, 2019

Lafftur said:

Hi Lafftur, I 100% believe this statement. Salvation, according to the original Greek, means "a deliverance". Many children of God have difficulty applying this deliverance to the context. There is an eternal deliverance and there are also many deliverance for eternally saved people as they live out their lives here on earth. Every time they yield their bodies to the lust of the things of the world, they sin, which does not effect their eternal destination, but it does separate them from their fellowship with God until they repent and God delivers (saves) them from the effects of the sin. This seems to be why "Waggles" is so confused. The scriptures are written to be a mystery to those who are depending upon their own intellect to understand scriptures. I was also guilty of this error for 12 years of diligent studying until I denied myself (my intellect) and thought I would never understand the scriptures to not contradict each other. There are many salvation scriptures that are referring to our deliverance here on earth, and very few that has reference to our eternal deliverance. The entire bible was written to God's children to instruct them as to how they are to live their lives while they sojourn here on earth.

ForestGreenCook · Sep 5, 2019

Waggles said:

To me, John 6:38 and following scriptures. Jesus died for all of those that his Father gave to him and said he would lose none of them. Jesus also said that no one can come unto him unless God draws them. This is a drawing that man can not resist. The person who has hold of the rope is doing the drawing and the bucket in the well has no say so about it.

Waggles · Sep 5, 2019

ForestGreenCook said:

Waggles is not confused and has a pretty good understanding of scripture and the gospel of salvation.

OSAS is just part of the continuing dumbing down of Christian doctrine of these last days.
They will turn away from sound doctrine and believe deceitful doctrines of men (and women).

Waggles · Sep 5, 2019

Not only do I have the indwelling Spirit of truth who teaches me and opens my eyes to the truth of the scriptures,
but at our meetings we still operate the voice gift of prophecy (1Corinthians 12 & 14) in which God himself speaks
to his church.
And on matters of salvation explains much to us pertaining to the scriptures and what is expected of us in our walk
in the Spirit with our Lord.
And I can assure you that God does not believe in OSAS eternal security.
If we lose faith and our way and return back to were we came from that is death.

Waggles · Sep 5, 2019

ForestGreenCook said:

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life:
and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40
believes > so if we believe in Jesus and the gospel then we need to obey his commandments and his teachings
given that most Christian denominations do not do this in any full way - most deny Acts 2:38 to start with, then the
question remains as to who is saved now in the eyes of God?
Many here in this thread use the word 'believe' with an extremely wide loose application. Certainly not in the same manner
of usage we read of in Acts and the epistles.
If you believe in Jesus then you will believe in the Word of God and stay believing until the end.

23 But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:
for the Father seeks such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:
let us have some truth of scripture here in this thread - not all worshippers are true worshippers.
God sets the standards in his word and we can all read how Christian discipleship and the church of God begins -
Act 2:38 on the Day of Pentecost.

Jimbone · Sep 5, 2019

LW97 said:

But the Question is, "Can you deny Jesus once we are reborn of the Spirit?". I would say no. However I totally understand why you think that we can, I did too for a while. Really it is as simple as "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.", and "They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us."

I do not believe at all that one one is reborn, once they KNOW our Lord Jesus and have truly laid down their life to Him, that He will lose NONE the Father has given Him. That is how I've come to see it so far. We can not lose salvation once reconciled to our Creator.

dcontroversal · Sep 5, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Agree and or he is just a troll that hates the truth............

Waggles · Sep 5, 2019

19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.
20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you
continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Romans 11:
end of story - here the scriptures openly declare that OSAS has no truth

and Jesus said unto him, 'No one having put his hand on a plough, and looking back, is fit for the Kingdom of God.'
Luke 9:62

UnderGrace · Sep 5, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Yes more than insecurity

...he hates the truth!

ForestGreenCook · Sep 5, 2019

Waggles said:

Not only do I have the indwelling Spirit of truth who teaches me and opens my eyes to the truth of the scriptures,
but at our meetings we still operate the voice gift of prophecy (1Corinthians 12 & 14) in which God himself speaks
to his church.
And on matters of salvation explains much to us pertaining to the scriptures and what is expected of us in our walk
in the Spirit with our Lord.
And I can assure you that God does not believe in OSAS eternal security.
If we lose faith and our way and return back to were we came from that is death.

Death, according to the Greek, means "a separation". In scripture it is used to reference many kinds of separations.

ForestGreenCook · Sep 5, 2019

Waggles said:

19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.
20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you
continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Romans 11:
end of story - here the scriptures openly declare that OSAS has no truth

and Jesus said unto him, 'No one having put his hand on a plough, and looking back, is fit for the Kingdom of God.'
Luke 9:62

Just wondering. How do you explain John 6:38?

Waggles · Sep 5, 2019

ForestGreenCook said:

read post #2,792

Waggles · Sep 5, 2019

@ForestGreenCook Just wondering how do you explain ?
19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.
20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you
continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Romans 11:

Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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