Luke 17 - Where are they taken?
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Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luk 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
The context above is "the kingdom of God that comes without observation". Verse 22 is speaking to the time when Christ would be crucified.
All still within the context of "the kingdom that comes without observance". Nothing here about the second advent.
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luk 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
The context above is "the kingdom of God that comes without observation". Verse 22 is speaking to the time when Christ would be crucified.
All still within the context of "the kingdom that comes without observance". Nothing here about the second advent.
KJV1611, do you recall what I'd posted elsewhere about the phrase "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (as found in Rev1:1 re: the 4:1/1:19c[/7:3] "FUTURE" aspects of the Book; also in Rom16:20 [this one with regard to "the Church which is His body" during the SAME time-frame but in a distinct LOCATION]; and ALSO in Luke 18:8 "AVENGE in quickness [noun]" which is NOT what is taking place "in this present age [singular]")… bear that in mind, as you read the following commentary on Luke 17...
[quoting William Kelly's Commentary, from BibleHub]
"Luke 17:20
"The kingdom of God was the national hope of Israel. It was before the minds of all who looked for good from God. It was bound up with the Messiah's presence. Such is the way in which the Kingdom is presented in the Old Testament. Nor does the New Testament in any way set this aside, but confirms the expectation only it discloses the Kingdom in another shape before it is introduced in power when the Lord returns in glory.
"Of this, however, the Pharisees knew nothing. They demanded of Him when the kingdom of God should come, thinking only of that which is to be manifest when the Jews shall be brought back from all their wanderings, and restored in their full nationality to the land under the Messiah, and the new covenant. The Lord, as throughout Luke, shows something more and deeper, something that demanded faith, before the establishment of the Kingdom in power. He answers them therefore, "The kingdom of God doth not come with observation." This was what was morally important to know now. The Kingdom would surely come as they looked for it in its own day, and the Lord distinctly lets us see this afterwards. But first of all He insists, as was most according to God, on that which they knew not, and which it most concerned them to know: "The kingdom of God doth not come with observation," (Matthew 24:23) or outward show. "Nor shall they say, Lo here, or, Lo there; for lo, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." Of this they were wholly ignorant, and this ignorance is fatal: for it was not to know God's king, when He manifested the true power of the Kingdom in victory over Satan, and over all the results of man's subjection to infirmity in this world-when He manifested it positively in righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, the dependent and obedient Man, but in the unfailing power of God which wrought by Him. To all this they were blind; they valued it not, because they valued not God. They did desire as a nation that which would elevate them, and overthrow their enemies; they did not desire that which exalts God and humbles man.
[...]
"The Lord, therefore, in this His answer, first meets the moral need of the Pharisees, and shows that in the most important sense now, from the time of His rejection till His return in glory, it is no question of "Lo here, and lo there," but of faith to own the glory of His person, and to recognise that the power which wrought is God's. "The kingdom of God is in the midst of you." It was in their midst and they saw it not, because they saw not Him. They thought little of Jesus. This is ruin to every soul who hears but refuses the testimony.
"It will be observed that it is the kingdom of God, not of heaven [/'kingdom of the heavens']. It is never said, while Jesus was here, that the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens'] was come; [...] Matthew alone speaks of the kingdom of heaven ['the kingdom of the heavens'], but he never speaks of the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens'] save [/except] as preached or promised, until the Lord left the earth. In short the kingdom of God was there when Christ was there, the conqueror over Satan, and exhibiting in every direction morally the power of the Spirit. But the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens'] was not there till from heaven He introduced His rule over the earth. When He returns in glory, it will he still the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens']: the rule of the heavens will never be lost, certainly not when the Kingdom comes in power and glory.
"Luke 17:22-24. Matthew 24:23f.
"But the Lord next addresses the disciples, and says, "Days are coming when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it]." Here He can speak freely of the future form of the Kingdom, of which alone the Pharisees thought. The disciples had received the Lord by faith; and, however little intelligent they might be, they apprehended the kingdom of God among them. Hence the Lord could give them Divine light as to the future, when He should establish the Kingdom visibly. "Days are coming when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it]." He opens to them His rejection, as well as the efforts of Satan during his rejection. "And they will say unto you, Lo here; or, Lo there. Go not nor follow [them]." (Verse 23.) False Christs should arise; but they were forewarned. "For as the lightning which lightening from [one end] under heaven shineth to [the other end] under heaven, thus shall the Son of man be in his day." There will be no question of "Lo here, or, Lo there when Christ comes again any more than when He was here. It was unbelief to say, See here, and See there, when Christ was present in the power that revealed Who He must be and was. It will be unbelief by and by to say, See here, and See there; for the Kingdom will be established in power. They were not to follow such rumours but to heed His Word. He returns not merely as the rejected Messiah, but as the Son of man, the exalted ruler of all nations, peoples, and tongues. His Kingdom shall be manifested under the whole heaven as He comes from heaven.""
--William Kelly, Commentary on Luke 17 [source: BibleHub, https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/luke/17.htm ]
[end quoting; bold and underline mine; most brackets mine, except the one which says "[the other end]" which is original to the commentary]
Hope this helps somewhat.
[quoting William Kelly's Commentary, from BibleHub]
"Luke 17:20
"The kingdom of God was the national hope of Israel. It was before the minds of all who looked for good from God. It was bound up with the Messiah's presence. Such is the way in which the Kingdom is presented in the Old Testament. Nor does the New Testament in any way set this aside, but confirms the expectation only it discloses the Kingdom in another shape before it is introduced in power when the Lord returns in glory.
"Of this, however, the Pharisees knew nothing. They demanded of Him when the kingdom of God should come, thinking only of that which is to be manifest when the Jews shall be brought back from all their wanderings, and restored in their full nationality to the land under the Messiah, and the new covenant. The Lord, as throughout Luke, shows something more and deeper, something that demanded faith, before the establishment of the Kingdom in power. He answers them therefore, "The kingdom of God doth not come with observation." This was what was morally important to know now. The Kingdom would surely come as they looked for it in its own day, and the Lord distinctly lets us see this afterwards. But first of all He insists, as was most according to God, on that which they knew not, and which it most concerned them to know: "The kingdom of God doth not come with observation," (Matthew 24:23) or outward show. "Nor shall they say, Lo here, or, Lo there; for lo, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." Of this they were wholly ignorant, and this ignorance is fatal: for it was not to know God's king, when He manifested the true power of the Kingdom in victory over Satan, and over all the results of man's subjection to infirmity in this world-when He manifested it positively in righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, the dependent and obedient Man, but in the unfailing power of God which wrought by Him. To all this they were blind; they valued it not, because they valued not God. They did desire as a nation that which would elevate them, and overthrow their enemies; they did not desire that which exalts God and humbles man.
[...]
"The Lord, therefore, in this His answer, first meets the moral need of the Pharisees, and shows that in the most important sense now, from the time of His rejection till His return in glory, it is no question of "Lo here, and lo there," but of faith to own the glory of His person, and to recognise that the power which wrought is God's. "The kingdom of God is in the midst of you." It was in their midst and they saw it not, because they saw not Him. They thought little of Jesus. This is ruin to every soul who hears but refuses the testimony.
"It will be observed that it is the kingdom of God, not of heaven [/'kingdom of the heavens']. It is never said, while Jesus was here, that the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens'] was come; [...] Matthew alone speaks of the kingdom of heaven ['the kingdom of the heavens'], but he never speaks of the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens'] save [/except] as preached or promised, until the Lord left the earth. In short the kingdom of God was there when Christ was there, the conqueror over Satan, and exhibiting in every direction morally the power of the Spirit. But the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens'] was not there till from heaven He introduced His rule over the earth. When He returns in glory, it will he still the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens']: the rule of the heavens will never be lost, certainly not when the Kingdom comes in power and glory.
"Luke 17:22-24. Matthew 24:23f.
"But the Lord next addresses the disciples, and says, "Days are coming when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it]." Here He can speak freely of the future form of the Kingdom, of which alone the Pharisees thought. The disciples had received the Lord by faith; and, however little intelligent they might be, they apprehended the kingdom of God among them. Hence the Lord could give them Divine light as to the future, when He should establish the Kingdom visibly. "Days are coming when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it]." He opens to them His rejection, as well as the efforts of Satan during his rejection. "And they will say unto you, Lo here; or, Lo there. Go not nor follow [them]." (Verse 23.) False Christs should arise; but they were forewarned. "For as the lightning which lightening from [one end] under heaven shineth to [the other end] under heaven, thus shall the Son of man be in his day." There will be no question of "Lo here, or, Lo there when Christ comes again any more than when He was here. It was unbelief to say, See here, and See there, when Christ was present in the power that revealed Who He must be and was. It will be unbelief by and by to say, See here, and See there; for the Kingdom will be established in power. They were not to follow such rumours but to heed His Word. He returns not merely as the rejected Messiah, but as the Son of man, the exalted ruler of all nations, peoples, and tongues. His Kingdom shall be manifested under the whole heaven as He comes from heaven.""
--William Kelly, Commentary on Luke 17 [source: BibleHub, https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/luke/17.htm ]
[end quoting; bold and underline mine; most brackets mine, except the one which says "[the other end]" which is original to the commentary]
Hope this helps somewhat.
Hi thanks for the reply. I would offer.
I would agree what the Spirit of God cleanses it is cleansed. The corrupted flesh and blood profits for nothing. It was a saying that offended those disciples who were hoping what the eyes see (flesh and blood) could pro[fit rather than walking by faith the unseen eternal .Witnessed by Peter moved by the Holy Spirit. . . . You have words of spiritual life not flesh of eternal life.
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:60-63
Jesus asked the twelve apostles, “Do you want to leave too?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, where would we go? You have the words that give eternal life. John 6: 67-68
I can offer. Eagles that are ceremonially used in a parables are considered unclean to represent, natural unconverted mankind . An Ass like that of Balaam's is also .In the ceremonial used to preach the gospel the unclean is cleansed by that which is called clean . We are clean in Christ, the lamb of God. If no lamb to signify redemption the neck is broken as in falling back in judgement
Exodus 13:13And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.
As eagle wings messengers of the gospel he will send them out in the power of his strength. How beautiful are the feet that are sent out with the gospel
He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength. Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall: But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. Isaiah 40 :29-31
Wings, run, walk as metaphors used in parables all represent "understanding by faith". And not by what the eyes see the natural course of man.. Because believers are given God's understand they do not faint being yoked with him makes the work easy .
We know blasphemy against the Son man Jesus, was forgiven for the same reason no faith needed walking by sight. But would not be forgiven the moment Jesus disappeared
When call good master .Jesus knowing only one is our master in heaven not seen .He refused to Jeopardies the Holy place of the unseen Father but rather replied. Only God is good. God is not a man as us. He is eternal Spirit like God alone.
Mark 10:17-19 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) Jesus started to leave, but a man ran to him and bowed down on his knees before him. The man asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to get the life that never ends?” Jesus answered, “Why do you call me good? Only God is good. 19 And you know his commands: ‘You must not murder anyone, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not lie, you must not cheat, you must respect your father and mother
Good is the unseen finger of God's approval .His fingerprint.
God is not served or worship by human hands . He can if he chooses bring the gospel by a unbeliever (Ass) just as easily by one that does belive (lamb)
That can be applies to another parable Mathew 7 the many will say... .Jesus never said the works were not performed but points to mankind he is not served by human hands he moves our will not us move his. The lamb rise to new spirit life and are gone. The eagles are gathered together as in let the dead bury the dead. .
Matthew 7:21-23 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) “Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter God’s kingdom. The only people who will enter are those who do what my Father in heaven wants. On that last Day many will call me Lord. They will say, ‘Lord, Lord, by the power of your name "we spoke for God". And by your name we forced out demons and did many miracles.’ Then I will tell those people clearly, ‘Get away from me, you people who do wrong. I never knew you.’
In that way God speaks for his ownself. He is not served or worshipped by human hands as if needed something from the clay. His words cast out demons. . the power of the gospel . [/QUOTE]
I would agree what the Spirit of God cleanses it is cleansed. The corrupted flesh and blood profits for nothing. It was a saying that offended those disciples who were hoping what the eyes see (flesh and blood) could pro[fit rather than walking by faith the unseen eternal .Witnessed by Peter moved by the Holy Spirit. . . . You have words of spiritual life not flesh of eternal life.
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:60-63
Jesus asked the twelve apostles, “Do you want to leave too?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, where would we go? You have the words that give eternal life. John 6: 67-68
I can offer. Eagles that are ceremonially used in a parables are considered unclean to represent, natural unconverted mankind . An Ass like that of Balaam's is also .In the ceremonial used to preach the gospel the unclean is cleansed by that which is called clean . We are clean in Christ, the lamb of God. If no lamb to signify redemption the neck is broken as in falling back in judgement
Exodus 13:13And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.
As eagle wings messengers of the gospel he will send them out in the power of his strength. How beautiful are the feet that are sent out with the gospel
He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength. Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall: But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. Isaiah 40 :29-31
Wings, run, walk as metaphors used in parables all represent "understanding by faith". And not by what the eyes see the natural course of man.. Because believers are given God's understand they do not faint being yoked with him makes the work easy .
We know blasphemy against the Son man Jesus, was forgiven for the same reason no faith needed walking by sight. But would not be forgiven the moment Jesus disappeared
When call good master .Jesus knowing only one is our master in heaven not seen .He refused to Jeopardies the Holy place of the unseen Father but rather replied. Only God is good. God is not a man as us. He is eternal Spirit like God alone.
Mark 10:17-19 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) Jesus started to leave, but a man ran to him and bowed down on his knees before him. The man asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to get the life that never ends?” Jesus answered, “Why do you call me good? Only God is good. 19 And you know his commands: ‘You must not murder anyone, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not lie, you must not cheat, you must respect your father and mother
Good is the unseen finger of God's approval .His fingerprint.
God is not served or worship by human hands . He can if he chooses bring the gospel by a unbeliever (Ass) just as easily by one that does belive (lamb)
That can be applies to another parable Mathew 7 the many will say... .Jesus never said the works were not performed but points to mankind he is not served by human hands he moves our will not us move his. The lamb rise to new spirit life and are gone. The eagles are gathered together as in let the dead bury the dead. .
Matthew 7:21-23 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) “Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter God’s kingdom. The only people who will enter are those who do what my Father in heaven wants. On that last Day many will call me Lord. They will say, ‘Lord, Lord, by the power of your name "we spoke for God". And by your name we forced out demons and did many miracles.’ Then I will tell those people clearly, ‘Get away from me, you people who do wrong. I never knew you.’
In that way God speaks for his ownself. He is not served or worshipped by human hands as if needed something from the clay. His words cast out demons. . the power of the gospel . [/QUOTE]
KJV1611, do you recall what I'd posted elsewhere about the phrase "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (as found in Rev1:1 re: the 4:1/1:19c[/7:3] "FUTURE" aspects of the Book; also in Rom16:20 [this one with regard to "the Church which is His body" during the SAME time-frame but in a distinct LOCATION]; and ALSO in Luke 18:8 "AVENGE in quickness [noun]" which is NOT what is taking place "in this present age [singular]")… bear that in mind, as you read the following commentary on Luke 17...
[quoting William Kelly's Commentary, from BibleHub]
"Luke 17:20
"The kingdom of God was the national hope of Israel. It was before the minds of all who looked for good from God. It was bound up with the Messiah's presence. Such is the way in which the Kingdom is presented in the Old Testament. Nor does the New Testament in any way set this aside, but confirms the expectation only it discloses the Kingdom in another shape before it is introduced in power when the Lord returns in glory.
"Of this, however, the Pharisees knew nothing. They demanded of Him when the kingdom of God should come, thinking only of that which is to be manifest when the Jews shall be brought back from all their wanderings, and restored in their full nationality to the land under the Messiah, and the new covenant. The Lord, as throughout Luke, shows something more and deeper, something that demanded faith, before the establishment of the Kingdom in power. He answers them therefore, "The kingdom of God doth not come with observation." This was what was morally important to know now. The Kingdom would surely come as they looked for it in its own day, and the Lord distinctly lets us see this afterwards. But first of all He insists, as was most according to God, on that which they knew not, and which it most concerned them to know: "The kingdom of God doth not come with observation," (Matthew 24:23) or outward show. "Nor shall they say, Lo here, or, Lo there; for lo, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." Of this they were wholly ignorant, and this ignorance is fatal: for it was not to know God's king, when He manifested the true power of the Kingdom in victory over Satan, and over all the results of man's subjection to infirmity in this world-when He manifested it positively in righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, the dependent and obedient Man, but in the unfailing power of God which wrought by Him. To all this they were blind; they valued it not, because they valued not God. They did desire as a nation that which would elevate them, and overthrow their enemies; they did not desire that which exalts God and humbles man.
[...]
"The Lord, therefore, in this His answer, first meets the moral need of the Pharisees, and shows that in the most important sense now, from the time of His rejection till His return in glory, it is no question of "Lo here, and lo there," but of faith to own the glory of His person, and to recognise that the power which wrought is God's. "The kingdom of God is in the midst of you." It was in their midst and they saw it not, because they saw not Him. They thought little of Jesus. This is ruin to every soul who hears but refuses the testimony.
"It will be observed that it is the kingdom of God, not of heaven [/'kingdom of the heavens']. It is never said, while Jesus was here, that the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens'] was come; [...] Matthew alone speaks of the kingdom of heaven ['the kingdom of the heavens'], but he never speaks of the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens'] save [/except] as preached or promised, until the Lord left the earth. In short the kingdom of God was there when Christ was there, the conqueror over Satan, and exhibiting in every direction morally the power of the Spirit. But the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens'] was not there till from heaven He introduced His rule over the earth. When He returns in glory, it will he still the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens']: the rule of the heavens will never be lost, certainly not when the Kingdom comes in power and glory.
"Luke 17:22-24. Matthew 24:23f.
"But the Lord next addresses the disciples, and says, "Days are coming when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it]." Here He can speak freely of the future form of the Kingdom, of which alone the Pharisees thought. The disciples had received the Lord by faith; and, however little intelligent they might be, they apprehended the kingdom of God among them. Hence the Lord could give them Divine light as to the future, when He should establish the Kingdom visibly. "Days are coming when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it]." He opens to them His rejection, as well as the efforts of Satan during his rejection. "And they will say unto you, Lo here; or, Lo there. Go not nor follow [them]." (Verse 23.) False Christs should arise; but they were forewarned. "For as the lightning which lightening from [one end] under heaven shineth to [the other end] under heaven, thus shall the Son of man be in his day." There will be no question of "Lo here, or, Lo there when Christ comes again any more than when He was here. It was unbelief to say, See here, and See there, when Christ was present in the power that revealed Who He must be and was. It will be unbelief by and by to say, See here, and See there; for the Kingdom will be established in power. They were not to follow such rumours but to heed His Word. He returns not merely as the rejected Messiah, but as the Son of man, the exalted ruler of all nations, peoples, and tongues. His Kingdom shall be manifested under the whole heaven as He comes from heaven.""
--William Kelly, Commentary on Luke 17 [source: BibleHub, https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/luke/17.htm ]
[end quoting; bold and underline mine; most brackets mine, except the one which says "[the other end]" which is original to the commentary]
Hope this helps somewhat.
[quoting William Kelly's Commentary, from BibleHub]
"Luke 17:20
"The kingdom of God was the national hope of Israel. It was before the minds of all who looked for good from God. It was bound up with the Messiah's presence. Such is the way in which the Kingdom is presented in the Old Testament. Nor does the New Testament in any way set this aside, but confirms the expectation only it discloses the Kingdom in another shape before it is introduced in power when the Lord returns in glory.
"Of this, however, the Pharisees knew nothing. They demanded of Him when the kingdom of God should come, thinking only of that which is to be manifest when the Jews shall be brought back from all their wanderings, and restored in their full nationality to the land under the Messiah, and the new covenant. The Lord, as throughout Luke, shows something more and deeper, something that demanded faith, before the establishment of the Kingdom in power. He answers them therefore, "The kingdom of God doth not come with observation." This was what was morally important to know now. The Kingdom would surely come as they looked for it in its own day, and the Lord distinctly lets us see this afterwards. But first of all He insists, as was most according to God, on that which they knew not, and which it most concerned them to know: "The kingdom of God doth not come with observation," (Matthew 24:23) or outward show. "Nor shall they say, Lo here, or, Lo there; for lo, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." Of this they were wholly ignorant, and this ignorance is fatal: for it was not to know God's king, when He manifested the true power of the Kingdom in victory over Satan, and over all the results of man's subjection to infirmity in this world-when He manifested it positively in righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, the dependent and obedient Man, but in the unfailing power of God which wrought by Him. To all this they were blind; they valued it not, because they valued not God. They did desire as a nation that which would elevate them, and overthrow their enemies; they did not desire that which exalts God and humbles man.
[...]
"The Lord, therefore, in this His answer, first meets the moral need of the Pharisees, and shows that in the most important sense now, from the time of His rejection till His return in glory, it is no question of "Lo here, and lo there," but of faith to own the glory of His person, and to recognise that the power which wrought is God's. "The kingdom of God is in the midst of you." It was in their midst and they saw it not, because they saw not Him. They thought little of Jesus. This is ruin to every soul who hears but refuses the testimony.
"It will be observed that it is the kingdom of God, not of heaven [/'kingdom of the heavens']. It is never said, while Jesus was here, that the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens'] was come; [...] Matthew alone speaks of the kingdom of heaven ['the kingdom of the heavens'], but he never speaks of the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens'] save [/except] as preached or promised, until the Lord left the earth. In short the kingdom of God was there when Christ was there, the conqueror over Satan, and exhibiting in every direction morally the power of the Spirit. But the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens'] was not there till from heaven He introduced His rule over the earth. When He returns in glory, it will he still the kingdom of heaven [/'the kingdom of the heavens']: the rule of the heavens will never be lost, certainly not when the Kingdom comes in power and glory.
"Luke 17:22-24. Matthew 24:23f.
"But the Lord next addresses the disciples, and says, "Days are coming when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it]." Here He can speak freely of the future form of the Kingdom, of which alone the Pharisees thought. The disciples had received the Lord by faith; and, however little intelligent they might be, they apprehended the kingdom of God among them. Hence the Lord could give them Divine light as to the future, when He should establish the Kingdom visibly. "Days are coming when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it]." He opens to them His rejection, as well as the efforts of Satan during his rejection. "And they will say unto you, Lo here; or, Lo there. Go not nor follow [them]." (Verse 23.) False Christs should arise; but they were forewarned. "For as the lightning which lightening from [one end] under heaven shineth to [the other end] under heaven, thus shall the Son of man be in his day." There will be no question of "Lo here, or, Lo there when Christ comes again any more than when He was here. It was unbelief to say, See here, and See there, when Christ was present in the power that revealed Who He must be and was. It will be unbelief by and by to say, See here, and See there; for the Kingdom will be established in power. They were not to follow such rumours but to heed His Word. He returns not merely as the rejected Messiah, but as the Son of man, the exalted ruler of all nations, peoples, and tongues. His Kingdom shall be manifested under the whole heaven as He comes from heaven.""
--William Kelly, Commentary on Luke 17 [source: BibleHub, https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/luke/17.htm ]
[end quoting; bold and underline mine; most brackets mine, except the one which says "[the other end]" which is original to the commentary]
Hope this helps somewhat.
There are words in the English language that mean IN THE DISTANT FUTURE and quickly isn't that word.
If those words meant what you say they mean, the translators would have translated them that way.
Dispensationalist have to change the meaning of soon or quickly because those words destroy dispensational theology.
Sorry but Mr. Kelly doesn't know anything about the kingdom of God that comes without observance. It's very obvious to anyone who reads the bible for what it says, rather than reading it with dispensational glasses on.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
This here opposes literalizing the Second Coming as an apocalyptic event (and literal Rapture with people flying in the air, etc), because in that interpretation Jesus would be a made into false prophet. I don't know how do people who believe in literal Apocalypse explain it.
This states that Jesus has come again, while some or all apostles were still alive, in the glory of his Father with His angels, and has rewarded, and/or is rewarding every man according to their works.
One could attempt to spiritualize away some portions of what Jesus said in order to ultimately literalize apocalyptic events, but it's kind of jumping into one's own mouth.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. :31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This is the same event described in Matthew 16.
Luke 17:20 ...The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: (these events are not physically seen!)
4 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Jesus literally just told us in the beginning of that sentence that this is not going to be physically observed...
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
As a whole, this looks like separation of the wheat from the tares and "giving every man according to his own works".
The Second Coming is identified as the coming of the Kingdom of God (Luke 17:20).
Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
So, Jesus "ended" the tares, rather than a "timeline" event. The righteous got the eternal life, but "the world", who cannot receive the Spirit, receives its "ending" in the fire. Jesus is "rewarding according to their works" and "ending the world" at all times.
I was thinking about it, and though it does say "gather ye together first the tares", as in the wicked are the ones taken, it does not exclude the interpretation in the OP, because:
Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
In this very chapter, Lot was the one "taken out", while the Sodomites were "left".
Thanks for opening the thread, it's a really interesting study. I've been wondering about the body and the eagles thing.
This here opposes literalizing the Second Coming as an apocalyptic event (and literal Rapture with people flying in the air, etc), because in that interpretation Jesus would be a made into false prophet. I don't know how do people who believe in literal Apocalypse explain it.
This states that Jesus has come again, while some or all apostles were still alive, in the glory of his Father with His angels, and has rewarded, and/or is rewarding every man according to their works.
One could attempt to spiritualize away some portions of what Jesus said in order to ultimately literalize apocalyptic events, but it's kind of jumping into one's own mouth.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. :31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This is the same event described in Matthew 16.
Luke 17:20 ...The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: (these events are not physically seen!)
4 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Jesus literally just told us in the beginning of that sentence that this is not going to be physically observed...
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
As a whole, this looks like separation of the wheat from the tares and "giving every man according to his own works".
The Second Coming is identified as the coming of the Kingdom of God (Luke 17:20).
Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
So, Jesus "ended" the tares, rather than a "timeline" event. The righteous got the eternal life, but "the world", who cannot receive the Spirit, receives its "ending" in the fire. Jesus is "rewarding according to their works" and "ending the world" at all times.
I was thinking about it, and though it does say "gather ye together first the tares", as in the wicked are the ones taken, it does not exclude the interpretation in the OP, because:
Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
In this very chapter, Lot was the one "taken out", while the Sodomites were "left".
Thanks for opening the thread, it's a really interesting study. I've been wondering about the body and the eagles thing.
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^ Some of us see Matthew 17 (the Transfiguration) [following the words in 16:27-28, you quoted] to have been a picture* of His Second Coming glory.
*[though actually happening/involving the disciples there at that time, of course]
*[though actually happening/involving the disciples there at that time, of course]
Yes I remember but I don't agree. Quickly means quickly, soon means soon, before the disciples cover Israel means before the disciples covered Israel.
There are words in the English language that mean IN THE DISTANT FUTURE and quickly isn't that word.
If those words meant what you say they mean, the translators would have translated them that way.
Dispensationalist have to change the meaning of soon or quickly because those words destroy dispensational theology.
There are words in the English language that mean IN THE DISTANT FUTURE and quickly isn't that word.
If those words meant what you say they mean, the translators would have translated them that way.
Dispensationalist have to change the meaning of soon or quickly because those words destroy dispensational theology.
Because "SOON" and "QUICKLY" are ADVERBS.
The verses I am pointing out, are using "NOUN"...
...("IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"), NOT "ADVERBS".
It seems to me you haven't read what he said in that article very carefully.
Allow me to write it in pieces:
"[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him [that is, unto Jesus]
to shew unto His servants [see "servants" in 7:3 re: the 144,000]
things which must come to pass [<--compare this wording with that of 4:1 and 1:19c re: the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book]
in quickness [NOUN]..." (not the ADVERBS of "SOON" or "QUICKLY" or "IMMEDIATELY"--all ADVERBS--this phrase in this verse is instead a NOUN; and is the SAME word as is found in both Lk18:8 and Rom16:20, I had pointed out).
"[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him [that is, unto Jesus]
to shew unto His servants [see "servants" in 7:3 re: the 144,000]
things which must come to pass [<--compare this wording with that of 4:1 and 1:19c re: the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book]
in quickness [NOUN]..." (not the ADVERBS of "SOON" or "QUICKLY" or "IMMEDIATELY"--all ADVERBS--this phrase in this verse is instead a NOUN; and is the SAME word as is found in both Lk18:8 and Rom16:20, I had pointed out).
That's kinda what I was thinking when the others pointed out the Job 39 passage -
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and make his nest on high?
28 He dwells on a cliff and lodges there;
his stronghold is on a rocky crag.
29 From there he spies out food;
his eyes see it from afar.
30 His young ones feast on blood;
and where the slain are, there he is.”
... kinda like, the instrument of [or, rather, assistant regarding] judgment? (pertaining to the "slain" of Rev19:19,21)
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and make his nest on high?
28 He dwells on a cliff and lodges there;
his stronghold is on a rocky crag.
29 From there he spies out food;
his eyes see it from afar.
30 His young ones feast on blood;
and where the slain are, there he is.”
... kinda like, the instrument of [or, rather, assistant regarding] judgment? (pertaining to the "slain" of Rev19:19,21)
I guess you're talking about Greek, because in English that sentence is not a noun. I don't understand a group of words being a noun but I'll take your word for it.
Even if the sentence is a noun meaning quickness, how does that help your cause? It still means that something happens soon, not 2000 years later.
Even if the sentence is a noun meaning quickness, how does that help your cause? It still means that something happens soon, not 2000 years later.
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Recall, I'd said that it is the "future aspects" of the Book that "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... not the 1:19a and 1:19b things, but the 1:19C things [<--like 4:1 says/covers also].
These conclude with His Second Coming to the earth in Rev19.
So, the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period (in addition to being relatively short in duration), CONCLUDES with His return to the earth (Rev19).
See the Greek:
https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/1-1.htm
These conclude with His Second Coming to the earth in Rev19.
So, the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period (in addition to being relatively short in duration), CONCLUDES with His return to the earth (Rev19).
See the Greek:
https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/1-1.htm