Seventh Day Adventists teach that Jesus is Michael the archangel

[SoulWeaver]

Surely, but let me put the question another way. Is Lucifer in charge of other angels, being chief or prince over them? What name would describe that office in similar fashion for the side of darkness?

Well it could be...
The prince of devils
or
The prince of the power of the air (makes me wonder, God's angels then do not belong to the powers of the air, or? they must be above the powers of the air? It's unthinkable for satan to command God's angels...)
If I missed where you're trying to take it, just expound... I think we are going off topic a bit now, so we may take it to pm, or open another thread.

 

[kneemailer]

Well it could be...
The prince of devils
or
The prince of the power of the air (makes me wonder, God's angels then do not belong to the powers of the air, or? they must be above the powers of the air? It's unthinkable for satan to command God's angels...)
If I missed where you're trying to take it, just expound... I think we are going off topic a bit now, so we may take it to pm if thats ok.

"Prince" of devils (fallen angels; Jude 1:6; 2 Peter 2:4) is valid, but what word is underlying in koine Greek for the English?

What is the definition of the word "arch - angel"?

 

[kneemailer]

The prince of devils
or
The prince of the power of the air

You would you say that Jesus is the "Prince of peace", while satan is the "Prince of the devils", and that these two are the main "Princes" that combat in the battle between good and evil? The Son of the Father being one of the chief Princes in the war between righteousness and sin?

 

[kneemailer]

What does wikipedia say about "Michael the archangel"?

 

[SoulWeaver]

You would you say that Jesus is the "Prince of peace", while satan is the "Prince of the devils", and that these two are the main "Princes" that combat in the battle between good and evil? The Son of the Father being one of the chief Princes in the war between righteousness and sin?

What does wikipedia say about "Michael the archangel"?

Are you saying that "the chief princes" are Jesus and satan?
But, you implied earlier that you were not arguing that archangel Michael is Jesus...?
Now I'm really not sure what you're saying... but if you are saying what I think you are, let's say it like this: it makes a lot of sense. But the evidence is insufficient.

The good host itself may have its own hierarchy, with its own chiefs.
A very strong hierarchy of the armies/hosts of Israel is displayed on earth too.
Deuteronomy 1:15 So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, and captains over fifties, and captains over tens, and officers among your tribes.
Deuteronomy 20:9 ... they shall make captains of the armies to lead the people.
Furthermore, God saw it fit to pick 3 chief people to lead the host: Moses, Aaron and Miriam.
Micah 6:4 For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.

 

[kneemailer]

Are you saying that "the chief princes" are Jesus and satan?

What ruling "princes" over created angels are there in scripture?

We are not speaking about human leaders are we? I thought that this thread was addressing the legions of the forces of good and evil among that which are classed in office as "angels", whether created (Gabriel, Lucifer) or uncreated (Angel of the LORD, Son of the Father)?

Perhaps some commentary may help.

 

[kneemailer]

But, you implied earlier that you were not arguing that archangel Michael is Jesus...?

I stated I hadn't argued it (yet, and still havent).

 

[Lafftur]

Luk_1:11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

Luk_1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Mat_2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Luk 2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.

Luk_2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Luk_22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

Mat_28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

Notice every time Gabriel appears he is called an angel- NEVER is Gabriel referred to as the Angel of the Lord.

 

[kneemailer]

Notice every time Gabriel appears he is called an angel- NEVER is Gabriel referred to as the Angel of the Lord.

It is like you didn't read Luke 1:11,19 to begin with, let alone the other texts cited, Matthew 1:20,24, etc.

 

[bluto]

It is like you didn't read Luke 1:11,19 to begin with, let alone the other texts cited, Matthew 1:20,24, etc.

Actually "THE" angel of the Lord "NEVER" appears in the New Testament. He is mentioned in the NT (Acts 7) but he never appears in it.

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

 

[bluto]

Another interesting statement. Are you sure? You have looked at every instance of the word "angel", "mal'ak" and "aggelos" in scripture in the Masoretic, koine Greek, English and even what some would term septuaginta?

I'm sure, so you tell me is his statement true or false?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
pda

 

[kneemailer]

Actually "THE" angel of the Lord "NEVER" appears in the New Testament.

You must be attempting an argument from koine Greek, but that means you do not understand koine Greek either in regards how definite articles work.

 

[kneemailer]

I'm sure, so you tell me is his statement true or false?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
pda

We have already discussed that all "angels" are not created, and he, himself even made the caveat that the Son of the Father is the "Angel of the LORD", being uncreated, in the specific verses given. He thus acknowledged the point. - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...hael-the-archangel.186933/page-3#post-4010095

 

[kneemailer]

What does wikipedia say about "Michael the archangel"?

Guess I will have to answer my own question, since no one else seems to want to even address it. So here is a snapshot from wikipedia, which is well sourced I see:



Again, I haven't argued anything yet. I am simply citing the source for what it says to be discussed.

 

[UnderGrace]

Guess I will have to answer my own question, since no one else seems to want to even address it. So here is a snapshot from wikipedia, which is well sourced I see:

View attachment 203391

Again, I haven't argued anything yet. I am simply citing the source for what it says to be discussed.

Interesting about the highly regarded Mr. Spurgeon.

 

[Lafftur]

Notice every time Gabriel appears he is called an angel- NEVER is Gabriel referred to as the Angel of the Lord.

It is like you didn't read Luke 1:11,19 to begin with, let alone the other texts cited, Matthew 1:20,24, etc.

Luke 1:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

Gabriel was AN angel of the Lord - NOT "The Angel of the Lord."

Yeshua/Jesus has an angel that looks like Him but, is NOT Him. Only this angel is THE Angel of the Lord. This is the angel that Yeshua/Jesus gave the prophecy of Revelation to John on the island of Patamos.

Revelation 1:1 King James Version (KJV)
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The angel John describes in chapter 10 is The Angel of The Lord - looks just like Yeshua/Jesus but, it is His personal angel.

Revelation 10:1 King James Version (KJV)
10 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

@kneemailer - we're probably going to go round and round over this so, just know I am VERY settled on my belief and it appears you are the same.

Knowing angels and who and what they are has NOTHING to do with salvation so, it's really NOT important.

 

[Lafftur]

We have already discussed that all "angels" are not created, and he, himself even made the caveat that the Son of the Father is the "Angel of the LORD", being uncreated, in the specific verses given. He thus acknowledged the point. - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...hael-the-archangel.186933/page-3#post-4010095

WHAT?!! NO, ALL angels ARE created beings. Angels only exist because God created them - just like us.

Yeshua/Jesus is NOT The Angel of the Lord. Yeshua/Jesus is God in the flesh - Human Form.

 

[kneemailer]

Luke 1:11 King James Version

Luke 1:11 koine Greek:

Luk 1:11 ωφθη δε αυτω αγγελος κυριου εστως εκ δεξιων του θυσιαστηριου του θυμιαματος

Literally "Lord's (possesive) angel", which in English is "Angel of the Lord". The "the" (definite article) doesn't have to be in the koine Greek at that point.

There is no "an". The reason the KJ translators wrote "an" in translation, is to make distinction between the created being Gabriel as "Angel of the LORD" and The eternal uncreated Son of the Father as "Angel of the LORD".

Hebrew works the same way.

22:11 waYiq'rä ëläyw mal'akh' y'hwäh min-haSHämayim waYomer av'rähäm av'rähäm waYomer hiNëniy

There is no definite article there either. It just says "JEHOVAH's angel", in regards the Son of the Father.

6:22 waYar' Gid'ôn Kiy-mal'akh' y'hwäh hû š waYomer Gid'ôn áhäH ádonäy y'hwih Kiy-al-Kën räiytiy mal'akh' y'hwäh Päniym el-Päniym

Again the same is found in Judges 6:22., another reference to the Son of the Father.

 

[kneemailer]

WHAT?!! NO, ALL angels ARE created beings.

Tell me then, who is this verse (Malachi 3:1) speaking of:

Mal 3:1 הנני שׁלח מלאכי ופנה־דרך לפני ופתאם יבוא אל־היכלו האדון אשׁר־אתם מבקשׁים ומלאך הברית אשׁר־אתם חפצים הנה־בא אמר יהוה צבאות׃

Mal 3:1 הנניH2005 שׁלחH7971 מלאכיH4397 ופנהH6437 דרךH1870 לפניH6440 ופתאםH6597 יבואH935 אלH413 היכלוH1964 האדוןH136 אשׁרH834 אתםH859 מבקשׁיםH1245 ומלאךH4397 הבריתH1285 אשׁרH834 אתםH859 חפציםH2655 הנהH2009 באH935 אמרH559 יהוהH3068 צבאות׃H6635

3:1 hin'niy sholëªch mal'äkhiy ûfiNäh-derekh' l'fänäy ûfit'om yävô el-hëykhälô häädôn ásher-aTem m'vaq'shiym ûmal'akh' haB'riyt ásher-aTem cháfëtziym hiNëh-vä ämar y'hwäh tz'väôt

Mal 3:1 ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει κύριος παντοκράτωρ.

Mal 3:1 ιδουG2400 INJ εγωG1473 P-NS εξαποστελλωG1821 V-PAI-1S τονG3588 T-ASM αγγελονG32 N-ASM μουG1473 P-GS καιG2532 CONJ επιβλεψεταιG1914 V-FMI-3S οδονG3598 N-ASF προG4253 PREP προσωπουG4383 N-GSN μουG1473 P-GS καιG2532 CONJ εξαιφνηςG1810 ADV ηξειG1854 V-FAI-3S ειςG1519 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM ναονG3485 N-ASM εαυτουG1438 D-GSM κυριοςG2962 N-NSM ονG3739 R-ASM υμειςG4771 P-NP ζητειτεG2212 V-PAI-2P καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM αγγελοςG32 N-NSM τηςG3588 T-GSF διαθηκηςG1242 N-GSF ονG3739 R-ASM υμειςG4771 P-NP θελετεG2309 V-PAI-2P ιδουG2400 INJ ερχεταιG2064 V-PMI-3S λεγειG3004 V-PAI-3S κυριοςG2962 N-NSM παντοκρατωρG3841 N-NSM

 

[kneemailer]

WHAT?!! NO, ALL angels ARE created beings.

I could even show you where the Holy Ghost Himself is called "angel", but that is for another thread.