Seventh Day Adventists teach that Jesus is Michael the archangel

[kneemailer]

Jesus is not a created god

Is there anyone in this thread, so far, saying that He is? If so, point them out specifically.

 

[kneemailer]

EXODUS 3
HOREB THE MOUNTAIN OF GOD
1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.

CHRIST IS THE ANGEL OF THE LORD
2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

THE BURNING BUSH AN EVIDENCE OF GOD'S PRESENCE
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

CHRIST IS YHWH (THE LORD = YAHWEH) AND ELOHIM (GOD)
4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

I agree with the texts you have cited, and also that they are speaking about the Son of the Father.

Which would mean several things for a few in this thread who have issued similar statements as another when they said, "ALL angels are created"; and thus would appear, at least by those texts you gave, to not be an accurate statement.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Another interesting statement. Are you sure? You have looked at every instance of the word "angel", "mal'ak" and "aggelos" in scripture in the Masoretic, koine Greek, English and even what some would term septuaginta?

Absolutely. Angels are indeed both messengers and ministering spirits, but ALL ARE CREATED SPIRITUAL BEINGS -- whether archangels, Cherubim, Seraphim, holy angels, or unholy angels.

As already noted "the angel of the LORD" is a very specific and technical term for the pre-incarnate Christ. And He was worshiped each time He appeared.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Gabriel continues speaking to Daniel after lifting him up, telling him, how that Satan was resisting himself, so that the prophecies of Daniel 8-9 would fail. Gabriel needed the aid.

So what's your point? Both Michael and Gabriel are created angelic beings. No need to quote Daniel extensively.

 

[kneemailer]

As already noted "the angel of the LORD" is a very specific and technical term for the pre-incarnate Christ. And He was worshiped each time He appeared.

The Son of the Father (Jesus) is an "angel" not created; yes, or no? Which means that the statement you gave in that "ALL angels are created" is incorrect and contradictory to your newly given statement?

 

[kneemailer]

So what's your point?

The point, being made most clear, was that the vs of Daniel 10:11, 13 are Gabriel speaking, not the Son of the Father, otherwise that would place the Son in an awkward position don't you think?

 

[Lafftur]

As far as Michael the arch angel...He might be the “Savior” of the angels just as Christ is the “Savior” of the humans.

Notice how only Michael can defeat any principality in the spiritual realm. In the physical realm, it is the Name of Yeshua/Jesus that has authority and power.

All heirs of salvation are given an angel - perhaps because Yeshua/Jesus was born a human He was given an Angel of the Lord.......

Even in Revelation Ch 1 - it says that Yeshua/Jesus sends His Angel to give us the Revelation prophecy. In chapter 10 John describes the Angel- looks just like Yeshua/Jesus but, it is an Angel.

So, basically you’ve got ....

God in angelic form = Michael The archangel

God in the flesh = Yeshua/Jesus

Angel of the Lord = an Angel assigned to be with Christ, as an heir of salvation (even the Messiah) while on the Earth....

We know angels ministered to Him as an adult while He was on the Earth....could there have been an Angel of the Lord with Him throughout his entire Earth life...

 

[SoulWeaver]

@kneemailer
I see no contradiction in this person being "sent" if it were Jesus. Jesus was also "sent" to us by Father God, so there's no obstacles to Him being sent to Daniel either. He obeys Father's will.

I am not SDA or JW and have been thinking before if Michael was actually yet another name for Jesus, but I couldn't reach a sure answer. I am on board with angel of the Lord thing that was expounded.
I'll add another Scripture that proves that angel of the Lord is NOT a creature, but God Himself.

Judges 2:1 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.


There's one problem with the Gabriel thing. If we can argue that Michael is Jesus, we also can argue that Gabriel is Jesus. I mean where does it stop? It's kinda messing with my mind...

I think I need to go to sleep and look at all this afresh in the morning...
I can see how an angel - a creature, could have the same likeness as Jesus.
If we will be as angels, and God is living fully in us, we may also acquire the fiery appearance of Jesus when we go to Heaven.
There's this angel in the book of Revelation, that John falls in front of him, but he corrects him and doesn't allow him to worship, telling him he's one of the brethren - a saved man. If John confused him for God, it must have been for the reason of appearance. But in this chapter of Daniel he didn't get corrected and told not to worship though, which is why I was wondering...
Thank you for the conversation.

 

[kneemailer]

As far as Michael the arch angel...He might be the “Savior” of the angels just as Christ is the “Savior” of the humans.

Isa_43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

 

[kneemailer]

I see no contradiction in this person being "sent" if it were Jesus. Jesus was also "sent" to us by Father God, so there's no obstacles to Him being sent to Daniel either. He obeys Father's will.

Truth, Jesus is indeed "the sent" of the Father, but notice the continuation of the thought:

Dan 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

 

[kneemailer]

We know angels ministered to Him as an adult while He was on the Earth....could there have been an Angel of the Lord with Him throughout his entire Earth life...

Indeed, Gabriel, seen at the beginning and ending.

 

[kneemailer]

I'll add another Scripture that proves that angel of the Lord is NOT a creature, but God Himself.

Judges 2:1 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

I agree with you there and with the text.

Now, another question, since we both say that the Son of the Father, is the uncreated "Angel of the LORD" in the respective passages given, is He also in charge of the created angelic hosts (such as Gabriel) and ruler over them?

 

[Lafftur]

Isa_43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

God saved 2/3 of the angels through Michael and He will save 2/3 of the humans through Yeshua/Jesus.

God is still the ONLY Savior - that NEVER changes.

 

[Lafftur]

Indeed, Gabriel, seen at the beginning and ending.

No. Gabriel was a messenger angel not assigned to heirs of salvation.

 

[kneemailer]

we also can argue that Gabriel is Jesus

Gabriel said of himself:

Luk_1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Gabriel is a creature of the angelic hosts which stands in the presence of God (whom the Son is). He (Gabriel) could not be the Son of the Father.

 

[kneemailer]

God saved 2/3 of the angels

That is a misunderstanding of Revelation's text.

Rev. 12:4 •“the third part of” – Indicates that there are 3 parts, or 3/3rd’s; see 2 Sam. 18:2; 2 Ki. 11:5-6; 2 Chr. 23:4-5; Eze. 5:1-3,12; Zec. 13:8-9; Rev. 8:7-12, 9:15,18. God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the true Light (Jhn. 1:9; 1 Jhn. 1:5; Rev. 21:23), even Christ the Morning Star (Rev. 2:28, 22:16), the Day Star (2 Pet. 1:19), while the created angelic hosts became divided, there are now holy and unholy angels, all of whom are called stars (some fallen); see Job. 38:7; Psa. 147:4, 148:2-3; Isa. 14:13; Dan. 12:3; Mat. 2:2,7,9-10, 22:30; Mar. 12:25; 1 Cor. 15:39-44.

 

[kneemailer]

God is still the ONLY Savior - that NEVER changes.

Jesus is the LORD of Isaiah 43:11. For it was He whom Isaiah saw in chapter 6, and is spoken on in the NT:

Joh_12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

 

[kneemailer]

No. Gabriel was a messenger angel not assigned to heirs of salvation.

Which angel was at His (Son of the Father, Jesus) birth and resurrection? Which angel was with Him in the garden of Gethsemane? Which angel protected Jesus from all of the times of being stoned, thrown over a cliff, etc?

 

[Jackson123]

God saved 2/3 of the angels through Michael and He will save 2/3 of the humans through Yeshua/Jesus.

God is still the ONLY Savior - that NEVER changes.

How do you know Jesus save 2/3 human?

Matthew 22:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Seem to me chosen in this verse mean save, only few are chosen to me mean more people not chosen

Let say 100 is the total

Only fix chosen mean less then 1/2. It may only 10 chosen, or less

 

[Jackson123]

Which angel was at His (Son of the Father, Jesus) birth and resurrection? Which angel was with Him in the garden of Gethsemane? Which angel protected Jesus from all of the times of being stoned, thrown over a cliff, etc?

Jesus is God, God do not need protection