Seventh Day Adventists teach that Jesus is Michael the archangel
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Then why were angels telling Joseph in dreams to take Mary as his wife and later telling Joseph to take the child and Mary to Egypt in the middle of the night? That wasn’t Gabriel. It was the Angel of the Lord assigned to the Son of God while on the Earth.
Keep in mind our free will has a tendency to mess with God’s plans. He was protecting His child and His plan for our salvation..
Keep in mind our free will has a tendency to mess with God’s plans. He was protecting His child and His plan for our salvation..
Very well! I'll concede. It is unlikely that this figure is Jesus.
I'd like to note that God can be stayed and this not mean that He is powerless, though, as shown in:
Psalms 88:13 But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee.
Moses and Abraham also debated with God...
Michael is being referred here to as "one of the chief princes". But is not Jesus the king of kings? If Michael is Jesus as you are arguing, this also kind of puts Him on the same level with some other "princes" in Dan 10:13. Who are the other chief princes? If Michael is Jesus, it seems equally problematic. Princes are high officials of the king. Jesus is otherwise referred to Prince of princes, King of kings and Lord of lords. In other words, ruler above rulers. Calling Him "one of chief princes" does not seem to adequately describe the authority and power of Jesus...
I believe so. Jesus is who he is, from the beginning. It is not like He didn't have authority before the Resurrection, right?
While we're at it, I'd like for you to look at this:
Matthew 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Even though the angel of the Lord speaks of himself as God in some occurrences, the term may not mean Son of God in every occurrence, which is clear here. Jesus was already on Earth, how can He now descend from Heaven when ascension didn't happen yet? And then the angel further declares at the tomb that Jesus is "not there".
So the "angel of the Lord" is definitely not Son of God here. So it is an unspecified creature angel.
Just thought it should be noted. Which means that we cannot insist that term "angel of the Lord" is Son of God in every instance, unless it's evident from the context.
I'd like to note that God can be stayed and this not mean that He is powerless, though, as shown in:
Psalms 88:13 But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee.
Moses and Abraham also debated with God...
Michael is being referred here to as "one of the chief princes". But is not Jesus the king of kings? If Michael is Jesus as you are arguing, this also kind of puts Him on the same level with some other "princes" in Dan 10:13. Who are the other chief princes? If Michael is Jesus, it seems equally problematic. Princes are high officials of the king. Jesus is otherwise referred to Prince of princes, King of kings and Lord of lords. In other words, ruler above rulers. Calling Him "one of chief princes" does not seem to adequately describe the authority and power of Jesus...
I believe so. Jesus is who he is, from the beginning. It is not like He didn't have authority before the Resurrection, right?
While we're at it, I'd like for you to look at this:
Matthew 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Even though the angel of the Lord speaks of himself as God in some occurrences, the term may not mean Son of God in every occurrence, which is clear here. Jesus was already on Earth, how can He now descend from Heaven when ascension didn't happen yet? And then the angel further declares at the tomb that Jesus is "not there".
So the "angel of the Lord" is definitely not Son of God here. So it is an unspecified creature angel.
Just thought it should be noted. Which means that we cannot insist that term "angel of the Lord" is Son of God in every instance, unless it's evident from the context.
Lafftur, consider what I asked carefully, in the light of the following text:
Psa 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Psa 91:12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Even Lucifer/Satan knew to whom this was speaking.
Psa 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Psa 91:12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Even Lucifer/Satan knew to whom this was speaking.
Luk_1:11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
Luk_1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat_2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Luk 2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Luk_2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Luk_22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Mat_28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Luk_1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat_2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Luk 2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Luk_2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Luk_22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Mat_28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
I concede the above. But does that fit with the text if we make the person speaking the Son? It still doesn't, correct?:
Dan 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Dan 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Ok, so we both agree that Jesus is the uncreated "Angel of the LORD" in their proper contexts already cited.
We both agree that Jesus is in charge of, or ruler over the created angelic hosts. What scriptural word would best describe that office? A ruler over created angels, being the chief of the angels, being the uncreated "Angel of the LORD" Himself? What bible word best describes that office?
I agree that every occurance of "angel of the LORD" is not a reference to the Son of the Father. For some already cited, as you have in Matthew 28:2, are referring to Gabriel, as noted in a previous post. Context always dictates the matter, as I am sure you will agree.
We both agree that Jesus is in charge of, or ruler over the created angelic hosts. What scriptural word would best describe that office? A ruler over created angels, being the chief of the angels, being the uncreated "Angel of the LORD" Himself? What bible word best describes that office?
I agree that every occurance of "angel of the LORD" is not a reference to the Son of the Father. For some already cited, as you have in Matthew 28:2, are referring to Gabriel, as noted in a previous post. Context always dictates the matter, as I am sure you will agree.
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