Apparently I can't get married
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I say your thinking is flawed, too, in that, yes, God told Adam and Eve who are first man and first woman, to go forth and multiply and it is not rocket science to know that God meant for those they produced to do likewise. He, also, said to Abraham that He would make him the father of many nations. I think we can conclude that the nations were born by "multiplying" and that that was God's intent. Also, He did say to go forth and multiply and never said, it's okay not to multiply.
I think I have clearly said that I do not think God ever said that couples cannot have sex for fun and pleasure. As a matter of fact, I said that more than once. What I did say and I honestly believe God wills such is that we are not to practise artificial birth control and in any way inhibit or prohibit a pregnancy from occurring in sex done to procreate or to enjoy fun and pleasure. He did say, too, that couples could practise abstinence, not birth control devices, when agreeing to fast or pray for set periods of time and, of course, such abstinences could be used for other justifiable responsible reasons that would be in accordance with God's Will. I do firmly believe that it is never God's Will for any couple to do anything to deliberately, knowingly, and willfully inhibit or prohibit a pregnancy.
Your mentioning that God never said we should or shouldn't have vehicles. True, He did not but, again, I believe God would will that man have transportation to get about in the vast areas in which man lives BUT God would will that such vehicles be used ONLY responsibly as in when and how to use them. He would never will that man drive any vehicle while impaired by alcohol, pot, prescribed or unprescribed drugs of any kind, sleepiness, and any other potentially dangerous or fatal issues. So, we can easily know that God would will what is good for man but not will what is not good. Thus, procreating is good when done as should be and using artificial birth control devices in inhibiting/prohibiting pregnancy or aborting a baby is not good. Good would be God's Will - spoken or unspoken - and not good would not be His Will - spoken or unspoken.
If you don't agree with me, that is fine, but I shall continue to say what I have said as I truly believe what God says and what God means. I know the Bible and it is all I put my faith in as what God says and what God means is all that matters, not what man says and man means.
I think I have clearly said that I do not think God ever said that couples cannot have sex for fun and pleasure. As a matter of fact, I said that more than once. What I did say and I honestly believe God wills such is that we are not to practise artificial birth control and in any way inhibit or prohibit a pregnancy from occurring in sex done to procreate or to enjoy fun and pleasure. He did say, too, that couples could practise abstinence, not birth control devices, when agreeing to fast or pray for set periods of time and, of course, such abstinences could be used for other justifiable responsible reasons that would be in accordance with God's Will. I do firmly believe that it is never God's Will for any couple to do anything to deliberately, knowingly, and willfully inhibit or prohibit a pregnancy.
Your mentioning that God never said we should or shouldn't have vehicles. True, He did not but, again, I believe God would will that man have transportation to get about in the vast areas in which man lives BUT God would will that such vehicles be used ONLY responsibly as in when and how to use them. He would never will that man drive any vehicle while impaired by alcohol, pot, prescribed or unprescribed drugs of any kind, sleepiness, and any other potentially dangerous or fatal issues. So, we can easily know that God would will what is good for man but not will what is not good. Thus, procreating is good when done as should be and using artificial birth control devices in inhibiting/prohibiting pregnancy or aborting a baby is not good. Good would be God's Will - spoken or unspoken - and not good would not be His Will - spoken or unspoken.
If you don't agree with me, that is fine, but I shall continue to say what I have said as I truly believe what God says and what God means. I know the Bible and it is all I put my faith in as what God says and what God means is all that matters, not what man says and man means.
and my reply to Dino would be the same for you .. "true" Christians are lead by the Holy Spirit and do know and understand what God IS saying and what God IS meaning .. please do not interpret what I just said as saying you are not a true Christian as I am not saying that about you or Dino or anyone else here .. I am just saying what "true" Christians who are lead by the Holy Spirit DO know and understand ..
So what are you saying then? Because it sure sounds to me like you're saying that anyone who doesn't agree with your point of view couldn't have been led by the Holy Spirit and therefore isn't a "true" Christian.
Of relevance to this discussion though, be fruitful and multiply is immediately followed by fill the earth and subdue it. Raises all kinds of questions about is the earth full? How do we go about determining when we have completely fulfilled those commands? And once we've completed the command to fill the earth (whenever that may be) should people continue to reproduce at a rate that causes them to increase in number or should they take measures to maintain the population but make sure it doesn't increase?
Most of those are rhetorical as I don't want to derail the thread any further than it already is.
That is why I added the part about not saying you and Dino or anyone else is not a "true" Christian as it is not my place to judge that. God knows our hearts and He knows who is a "true" Christian and who is not.
When we were children, our parents had rules and some they clearly specified, so we knew what they were saying and we knew very well what they meant. Sometimes, things came up for which our parents had not clearly said, "You MUST" or "You MUST NOT" but based on our knowing them and on what rules they did state, we could make a good guess at what they would say concerning the so-called unknown issue at hand. I am ruling out games children play in arguing what parents said and meant and what they didn't say and mean but we are not little children in that sense with God. We are to become as little children to enter Heaven but that means "childlike", not "childish". So, just as deep down we knew what our parents said and meant and we knew what they would say and mean about not stated issues.
By the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not by man confusing the issues to be man-pleasing and self-serving, we do know what God says and what He means by what He says and for things He has not specifically cited, we still know what He would say and what He would mean. He is our perfect Father and if we could read and understand our imperfect parents, how much more can we read and understand God our perfect parent?
As children who tried to say, "You never said ... " or "I never knew that THAT is what you meant when you said ...", we seldom won with that approach and when we did, it was more so that our parents did think they weren't clear enough. Such is NEVER the case with God. If He says something or does not actually say it in so many words, we still KNOW and UNDERSTAND what He means and He knows we do coz He reads our hearts so we can NEVER fool Him or pull the wool over His eyes.
So, the bottom line remains, that it is pointless and childish for us to say, "Well, God never actually said anything about this or that and so what are we to do?" We know what God says and what God means and we know what God would have said and what God would have meant IF we really strive to do His Will instead of our own self-serving will and IF we truly are His children who do know our Father.
Just choose any non-specified issue and say to God, "God, You never actually addressed this issue. If you had, what would you have said and meant about it?" First of all, we already know the answer but if He thinks best, God will answer us in no uncertain terms and we cannot say, "Hmmmmmmm, He never answered me" or "God said but I don't get it .. what did He mean?"
Anyway, I could, probably, go on and on citing such but the bottom line is, we are to be childlike, not childish, in our relationship with God our Father and the closer and deeper that relationship becomes and the wiser we become via the Holy Spirit, the more we know what God says and means and we know what God would have said and meant. We JUST know and understand, IF we have become one with God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - as we CAN become.
Finally, agree with me or disagree. I know what I truly believe and that is what I must live by. The Holy Spirit has taught me and will continue to enlighten me as I show readiness. But, we do KNOW and we do UNDERSTAND and to say otherwise, is to just childishly fool ourselves to suit our will, not God's Will.
When we were children, our parents had rules and some they clearly specified, so we knew what they were saying and we knew very well what they meant. Sometimes, things came up for which our parents had not clearly said, "You MUST" or "You MUST NOT" but based on our knowing them and on what rules they did state, we could make a good guess at what they would say concerning the so-called unknown issue at hand. I am ruling out games children play in arguing what parents said and meant and what they didn't say and mean but we are not little children in that sense with God. We are to become as little children to enter Heaven but that means "childlike", not "childish". So, just as deep down we knew what our parents said and meant and we knew what they would say and mean about not stated issues.
By the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not by man confusing the issues to be man-pleasing and self-serving, we do know what God says and what He means by what He says and for things He has not specifically cited, we still know what He would say and what He would mean. He is our perfect Father and if we could read and understand our imperfect parents, how much more can we read and understand God our perfect parent?
As children who tried to say, "You never said ... " or "I never knew that THAT is what you meant when you said ...", we seldom won with that approach and when we did, it was more so that our parents did think they weren't clear enough. Such is NEVER the case with God. If He says something or does not actually say it in so many words, we still KNOW and UNDERSTAND what He means and He knows we do coz He reads our hearts so we can NEVER fool Him or pull the wool over His eyes.
So, the bottom line remains, that it is pointless and childish for us to say, "Well, God never actually said anything about this or that and so what are we to do?" We know what God says and what God means and we know what God would have said and what God would have meant IF we really strive to do His Will instead of our own self-serving will and IF we truly are His children who do know our Father.
Just choose any non-specified issue and say to God, "God, You never actually addressed this issue. If you had, what would you have said and meant about it?" First of all, we already know the answer but if He thinks best, God will answer us in no uncertain terms and we cannot say, "Hmmmmmmm, He never answered me" or "God said but I don't get it .. what did He mean?"
Anyway, I could, probably, go on and on citing such but the bottom line is, we are to be childlike, not childish, in our relationship with God our Father and the closer and deeper that relationship becomes and the wiser we become via the Holy Spirit, the more we know what God says and means and we know what God would have said and meant. We JUST know and understand, IF we have become one with God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - as we CAN become.
Finally, agree with me or disagree. I know what I truly believe and that is what I must live by. The Holy Spirit has taught me and will continue to enlighten me as I show readiness. But, we do KNOW and we do UNDERSTAND and to say otherwise, is to just childishly fool ourselves to suit our will, not God's Will.
You could at least use a logical argument when claiming that my thinking is flawed. All you've done is defend your position. Though you have better contextual support, it's still essentially an argument from silence. The Bible simply does not demand that every couple have children, nor that they avoid contraception.
You are welcome to believe whatever you like, but when you start claiming that you have support from Scripture, you need to support your position with Scripture. You haven't. It's still an argument from silence, the same as your "go forth and multiply" view.
Drawing an illustration is not drawing scriptural support. Attempting to draw support from God's unspoken will is tantamount to inventing scriptural justification for anything that suits your fancy. That's what cult leaders and popes do.
For the record, abortion is not contraception; it's murder.
That's a great closing statement. It's a pity that your position contradicts it.
You are welcome to believe whatever you like, but when you start claiming that you have support from Scripture, you need to support your position with Scripture. You haven't. It's still an argument from silence, the same as your "go forth and multiply" view.
Drawing an illustration is not drawing scriptural support. Attempting to draw support from God's unspoken will is tantamount to inventing scriptural justification for anything that suits your fancy. That's what cult leaders and popes do.
For the record, abortion is not contraception; it's murder.
That's a great closing statement. It's a pity that your position contradicts it.
I do not go by "feeling" and I never used that context. "Knowing" and "Understanding" what God says and means or what God would have said and meant is not by feeling but, rather, by enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. I would venture to say that those who are "man-pleasing" instead of God-pleasing and "self-serving" instead of God-serving are the ones who go by "feeling" in that they do what makes them feel good and feel happy. I choose to truly try to know and do God's Will as in the end, it is what will be BEST for us as how could it be anything else? I am not saying, I never fail at doing such as I do but then I repent and try, try again. God reads my heart and knows if I am genuinely trying or if I am just trying His patience. The latter He will not accept but the former He will use to help me grow and become a better person. So, I do not go by "feeling" with God and I try not to go by such in my human life either as "feeling" is not always the best measure to use. So, knowing and understanding is not done by feeling in the wrong sense of that word and emotion. Our heads and hearts can and should work together and it is a continuing struggle for me. So, I hope you "feel" my response is satisfactory .. lol ..
You could at least use a logical argument when claiming that my thinking is flawed. All you've done is defend your position. Though you have better contextual support, it's still essentially an argument from silence. The Bible simply does not demand that every couple have children, nor that they avoid contraception.
You are welcome to believe whatever you like, but when you start claiming that you have support from Scripture, you need to support your position with Scripture. You haven't. It's still an argument from silence, the same as your "go forth and multiply" view.
Drawing an illustration is not drawing scriptural support. Attempting to draw support from God's unspoken will is tantamount to inventing scriptural justification for anything that suits your fancy. That's what cult leaders and popes do.
For the record, abortion is not contraception; it's murder.
That's a great closing statement. It's a pity that your position contradicts it.
You are welcome to believe whatever you like, but when you start claiming that you have support from Scripture, you need to support your position with Scripture. You haven't. It's still an argument from silence, the same as your "go forth and multiply" view.
Drawing an illustration is not drawing scriptural support. Attempting to draw support from God's unspoken will is tantamount to inventing scriptural justification for anything that suits your fancy. That's what cult leaders and popes do.
For the record, abortion is not contraception; it's murder.
That's a great closing statement. It's a pity that your position contradicts it.
And, Dino, I have said as clearly as I can what I believe and try to follow and if you don't understand what I am saying or don't agree with what I said or how I said it, that is your choice. I am not going to keep repeating it. I have said what I said as well as I currently can and I mean what I have said and that will have to be sufficient.
I do understand what you're saying; there's no need to repeat yourself. We'll just agree to disagree on this matter.
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I was born and raised a Catholic and left the Church in my mid 40s. As a child in a RCC school, I was brainwashed. Only Catholics would ever go to Heaven and we were not allowed to have a family Bible or to read the Bible. We had to go only by what priests and nuns told us. Anyway, the RCC then was really extreme but it is still pushing and some of what they say is not in accordance with God's Holy Word BUT having sex for procreation is God's Will and nowhere does God's Word allow for practising artificial birth control to inhibit or prohibit pregnancy. God did allow a couple to agree to "abstain" from having sex when for a period of time they were fasting or praying. What God does say/mean is clear and what He does not actually say is as clear in His intent and meaning.
You are clear in your thoughts on this subject. I myself am past a point of being able to have children and I do not believe that God has any prohibition on me marrying should the situation arise. God is my loving heavenly father. He cares about me. Sex is not just for procreation. It is a way for a couple to bond and care for each other. This sort of pleasure, within marriage, is not a cause of shame. God is not horrified by the bodies he created. Here is the one thing that I think is most important whenever we discuss our views on God's thoughts. We must be careful and humble when we presume to speak on behalf of God. We may offer what we believe he has said but we see through a mirror dimly. Let us be gracious with one another.
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Lots of food for thought here. Thank you. I am obviously not putting my thoughts clearly enough. I, too, am past the point of child-bearing at age almost 75 and I had a hysterectomy for cancer at age 62, so that would have ended all, too. I have never been the marrying or maternal type even though I can honestly say in my younger days, I did have 7 serious marriage proposals and was engaged to one guy for a time and then I broke it off. I was a teacher and did like my students but I loved sending them home, too, at the end of the day .. lol.
Yes, God does intend a married couple to enjoy sex and to bond via such and more. What I am saying, though, is that sex is primarily for procreation and God did make that clear when He created man and woman and told them to go forth and multiply. Via sex is the only way to procreate. Of course a husband and wife can "abstain" from having sex for such reasons as fasting, prayer, ... . What I am saying God does not actually say but I do believe such would be in accordance with all He does say is that a husband and wife may, of course, enjoy sex for the sake of sex itself but in doing so, they are in no way to inhibit/prohibit the possibility of a pregnancy occurring in doing so. So, in other words, sex is for procreation and for enjoyment but in doing so for enjoyment, a possible pregnancy may occur and in no way is the couple to inhibit/prohibit such happening by use of artificial means. The rhythm method works for some but not all. And in saying what I truly believe, here, I am not putting words into God's mouth. God wants and wills only "good" and for a couple to deliberately and willfully prevent a possible pregnancy in their having sex is "not good", so how can such be of and from God?
Yes, God does intend a married couple to enjoy sex and to bond via such and more. What I am saying, though, is that sex is primarily for procreation and God did make that clear when He created man and woman and told them to go forth and multiply. Via sex is the only way to procreate. Of course a husband and wife can "abstain" from having sex for such reasons as fasting, prayer, ... . What I am saying God does not actually say but I do believe such would be in accordance with all He does say is that a husband and wife may, of course, enjoy sex for the sake of sex itself but in doing so, they are in no way to inhibit/prohibit the possibility of a pregnancy occurring in doing so. So, in other words, sex is for procreation and for enjoyment but in doing so for enjoyment, a possible pregnancy may occur and in no way is the couple to inhibit/prohibit such happening by use of artificial means. The rhythm method works for some but not all. And in saying what I truly believe, here, I am not putting words into God's mouth. God wants and wills only "good" and for a couple to deliberately and willfully prevent a possible pregnancy in their having sex is "not good", so how can such be of and from God?
