The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT to add: Re: verse 9, 23 out of the 24 manuscripts have "US" in v.9; 1 manuscript out of the 24 has no pronoun and leaves it blank (that is, for v.9).


Then, the TR changes v.10 to make it "agree" with v.9 ("US"), whereas all other translations have "they/them" in v.10.


The accurate rendering, as I understand it, is that they are distinct (like I mentioned in the previous post). So, just be aware of what is, and has been, "changed"

 

[cv5]

Complete fantasy!

Adding a pre-tribulation advent and rapture that isn't in the Revelation of Jesus Christ is a serious sin, especially with the warning that the Lord Jesus gives in Rev 22v18,19:

"I [personally solemnly] warn everyone who listens to the statements of the prophecy [the predictions and the consolations and admonitions pertaining to them] in this book: If anyone shall add anything to them, God will add and lay upon him the plagues (the afflictions and the calamities) that are recorded and described in this book. And if anyone cancels or takes away from the statements of the book of this prophecy [these predictions relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions or warnings pertaining to them], God will cancel and take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the city of holiness (purity and hallowedness), which are described and promised in this book." [AMP]

You are absolutely and completely WRONG. The Pre-Trib rapture is one of THE MOST COMPELLING AND PROVABLE doctrines in the bible. Furthermore it is the crown jewel of Church eschatology. IMO it is one of the doctrinal pillars of the NT.

Too bad you will be missing participating in our Blessed Hope.

 

[cv5]

Complete fantasy!

Adding a pre-tribulation advent and rapture that isn't in the Revelation of Jesus Christ is a serious sin, especially with the warning that the Lord Jesus gives in Rev 22v18,19:

"I [personally solemnly] warn everyone who listens to the statements of the prophecy [the predictions and the consolations and admonitions pertaining to them] in this book: If anyone shall add anything to them, God will add and lay upon him the plagues (the afflictions and the calamities) that are recorded and described in this book. And if anyone cancels or takes away from the statements of the book of this prophecy [these predictions relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions or warnings pertaining to them], God will cancel and take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the city of holiness (purity and hallowedness), which are described and promised in this book." [AMP]

BTW....you can go ahead and post all of the occurances of the term "church" after Rev Ch 3 and prove me wrong.
I double dog dare you.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

You are absolutely and completely WRONG. The Pre-Trib rapture is one of THE MOST COMPELLING AND PROVABLE doctrines in the bible. Furthermore it is the crown jewel of Church eschatology. IMO it is one of the doctrinal pillars of the NT.

Too bad you will be missing participating in our Blessed Hope.

You do not sound like a humble person who is continually seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead you into understanding prophesy. You sound like someone who is guided more by their own self-righteousness.
Your browbeating helps assure me of my skepticism in man-made interpretations of the "end-times" prophesies.

I have one question for you though.

If the beast and false prophet are indeed individual human beings who are then cast alive into the lake of fire, then where is their (1st) death and judgement which is to follow? [ref: Hebrews 9:27]
I mean, if the beast and false prophet are indeed individual men, then where is their appearance before the judgement throne after they have left the body?
[ref: 2 Corinthians 5:10]

Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I believe that even though they are "cast ALIVE" into it, doesn't mean their physical lives REMAINED alive (recall, I believe that Isaiah 24:21-22[23]'s FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words correlate with the Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 time slot of His Second Coming to the earth, when these two are "cast ALIVE into"... but who's to say they REMAIN "alive" physically?? Perhaps not... this is the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in that passage [and "the kings of the earth" also experience it; see also Rev19:21], separated by a "time period" before the later GWTj being the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words of that text).

2 Corinthians 5:10's "we" speaks only of [to/for/about] "the Church which is His body" (at the Bema seat of Christ, a distinct judgment).

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Complete fantasy!

Adding a pre-tribulation advent and rapture that isn't in the Revelation of Jesus Christ is a serious sin, especially with the warning that the Lord Jesus gives in Rev 22v18,19:

"I [personally solemnly] warn everyone who listens to the statements of the prophecy [the predictions and the consolations and admonitions pertaining to them] in this book: If anyone shall add anything to them, God will add and lay upon him the plagues (the afflictions and the calamities) that are recorded and described in this book. And if anyone cancels or takes away from the statements of the book of this prophecy [these predictions relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions or warnings pertaining to them], God will cancel and take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the city of holiness (purity and hallowedness), which are described and promised in this book." [AMP]

But what if the pre-trib and rapture are in there and you are canceling (or subtracting) it out? Judge and you too will be Judged, and by the measure you use, it will be used against you. Oh no.
Let us not divide and condemn each other over these matters! It is fine to have discussions and studies, and this can even sometimes be a source of fascination and enjoyment, but let us not forget that this is not some contest or trivia.

Perhaps we should consider Romans 14:3:
The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here's the articles I was looking for:

Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:

"But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period."

[and]

"[Kenneth S. Wuest is a member of the Faculty of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, Illinois, and author of numerous books on New Testament Greek.]"


[continue to next post]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"The Rapture--Precisely When?" - Kenneth S Wuest

"The answer to these questions will only be convincing to the reader if it is based upon the rules of Biblical exegesis. [...<snip>...] That interpretation which is based upon the above rules is to be regarded as correct until it can be shown by the reapplication of the same rules that an error of human judgment has crept in.
"There is such a thing, therefore, as a scientific method of studying the Word. The student who follows the rules of an experiment in chemistry brings that experiment to a successful conclusion. The student who does not ends up with an explosion. Just so, the student who conducts his study of the Bible along the scientific lines noted above arrives at the correct interpretation, and the student who does not at the wrong one. The exegetical method the student uses in answering the question with reference to the time of the rapture will determine whether he believes in a pretribulational or a posttribulational rapture.
[...]

"The words "a falling away" are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi [histemi] in its intransitive sense means "to stand," the prefixed preposition means "off, away from," and the compound verb, "to stand off from." The word does not mean "to fall." The Greeks had a word for that, piptw. Afisthmi, in its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: "to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one"; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means "to fall away, become faithless." The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version "to depart," in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27; Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. [...]
[...]

"The writer [I think he refers to himself, here] is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times both in classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means "a rebel." But these are acquired meanings of the word gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word [our modern English word] "apostasy" means a defection from the truth is entirely beside the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word mean to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1 Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words "some shall depart from the faith" and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase "from the faith" indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.

With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice. A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. "The basal function of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark the object as definitely conceived, for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article." This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one, one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is "to denote previous reference." Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context." Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words "our gathering together unto him," not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered "and" can also be translated "even," and the translation reads, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him." [<--this just means that the two phrases in verse 1 both speak of our Rapture... correct]

The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to "the gathering together unto him" as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:1, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period [I would say, "must precede the [7-yr] tribulation period" to be more specific (for 'GREAT tribulation' refers only to the latter half of it); Wuest, here, means "before the entire trib period" not merely before the second half of it]. [...]"

--Kenneth S Wuest, "The Rapture--Precisely When?", Bibliotheca Sacra, BSac 114:453 (Jan 57), p.60

[ www. galaxie . com/article/bsac114-453-05 (no spaces)]


[end quoting; bold and underline mine; brackets mine]

 

[GaryA]

1a - tribulation of those days
1b - [ends] (based on context)
2a - collection of occurances
2b - [ends] (based on context)
3a - events of verse 30
3b - (followed by)
3c - events of verse 31

So then, the order of events is:

~ Great Tribulation
~ Two Witnesses / Trumpet events
~ Return of Christ
~ Rapture

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

^

2 Corinthians 5:10's "we" speaks only of [to/for/about] "the Church which is His body" (at the Bema seat of Christ, a distinct judgment).

This argument sounds dubious.

When you read 2 Cornithians 5 Paul says "we" many times, and yes in many of those cases he is referring only to those who are in Christ. However, in 2 Corinthians 5:10 he says, "we all". If this statement were directed to only those In Christ then Paul would have left out "all", as he did in the other cases. But "all" was purposefully included because it applies to all men.

The context of Hebrews 9:27 also indicates likewise. And this makes sense as all men do die, and we also know from the scriptures that all men will face judgement.

 

[Noose]

BTW....you can go ahead and post all of the occurances of the term "church" after Rev Ch 3 and prove me wrong.
I double dog dare you.

Rev 22:16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you a this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ the phrase "the churchES" is distinct from the phrase "the Church which is His body" (the former is made up of both believers AND unbelievers [or, those who "are not actually 'saved' "(i.e Christendom; they come in His name, but are not vitally connected with Him)]; but the latter is made up of ONLY BELIEVERS [of "this present age [singular]"])

 

[GaryA]

For those of you who consider all that is referred to in the book of Revelation to be in chronological order as the chapters and verses are ordered - and also insist that the "Seals, Trumpets, and Vials" are all "contained" within the Great Tribulation - why is it that Revelation 7:13-14 comes before the later chapters/verses that describe the Seventh Seal, the Trumpet events, and Wrath of God?

Why does Revelation 14:1 come before Revelation 15:1 if the Wrath of God is during the Great Tribulation - which ends before or around the time that Christ's feet first touch the earth?

If the Rapture occurs between chapter 3 and chapter 4, then isn't the Great Tribulation completely over by Revelation 7:13-14 --- after which --- everything later in the book occurs?

Do you see how ridiculous it is to say that everything in Revelation is in chronological order?

 

[Noose]

^ the phrase "the churchES" is distinct from the phrase "the Church which is His body" (the former is made up of both believers AND unbelievers [or, those who "are not actually 'saved' "(i.e Christendom)]; but the latter is made up of ONLY BELIEVERS [of "this present age [singular]"])

Rev 22:16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you a this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

It is a conclusion to the book of Revelation showing who was sent and who was the recipient. The angel was sent to reveal everything (in Revelation), to the church (es) and no one else. Just as it was in the beginning also, John starts by greeting the churches because the message was for the churches and no one else. Where does it ever say, chapter 1-3 are for the churches and 4-22 are for Jews?
Plus, real Jews are mentioned in Chapter 1-3 to mean the church.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This argument sounds dubious.

When you read 2 Cornithians 5 Paul says "we" many times, and yes in many of those cases he is referring only to those who are in Christ. However, in 2 Corinthians 5:10 he says, "we all". If this statement were directed to only those In Christ then Paul would have left out "all", as he did in the other cases. But "all" was purposefully included because it applies to all men.

Nah, I think the "all" is in reference to the fact that Paul's primary focus in the preceding verses is the "STILL-LIVING" portion of "the Church which is His body" (at the point in time he's zeroing in on in vv.2-4), but also makes a side comment about the fact that those of us (that is, of "the Church which is His body") who happen to DIE first (before the point in time he's referencing there, esp. in vv.2-4) will still be "in His presence"... so that EITHER WAY (whether by means of death first, or while still-living [<--which he says is his and our preference, in that, we are INTENSELY DESIRING same], it's all good, coz the end result of either [that is, for "us" ALL] is to be in His presence.

It's just that the "Bema seat judgment of Christ" doesn't take place UNTIL that specific point in time Paul is referencing here (meaning, the entire "Church which is His body" must be completed and present together for it... it doesn't take place upon each individual Christian's death, for example). Make sense?

The context of Hebrews 9:27 also indicates likewise. And this makes sense as all men do die, and we also know from the scriptures that all men will face judgement.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

For those of you who consider all that is referred to in the book of Revelation to be in chronological order as the chapters and verses are ordered - and also insist that the "Seals, Trumpets, and Vials" are all "contained" within the Great Tribulation - why is it that Revelation 7:13-14 comes before the later chapters/verses that describe the Seventh Seal, the Trumpet events, and Wrath of God?
[…]
Do you see how ridiculous it is to say that everything in Revelation is in chronological order?

The "SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS" are what is/are "chronological".

Other parts of the Revelation work around these, so to speak (not all chronological).

The GREAT tribulation is just the SECOND HALF (THIS part of it STARTS at the "5th Trumpet/'1st Woe [into the earth]'," when Satan and his angels are "cast unto the earth" [now limited to that sphere] and 1260 days remain).

The Two Witnesses ARRIVE on the scene further back than [meaning, well-before] "mid-trib" (I believe at the 1st Trumpet time slot), and they LEAVE [/FINISH] (via death, resurrection and ascending up to Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time slot (well before the completion of the 7 Vials [along with the 7th Trumpet/3rd Woe that kicks those off] which will unfold and come to completion at the END of those [2nd set of] 1260 days/2nd half... i.e. END of trib/His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19)

 

[Ahwatukee]

You do not sound like a humble person who is continually seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead you into understanding prophesy. You sound like someone who is guided more by their own self-righteousness.
Your browbeating helps assure me of my skepticism in man-made interpretations of the "end-times" prophesies.

I have one question for you though.

If the beast and false prophet are indeed individual human beings who are then cast alive into the lake of fire, then where is their (1st) death and judgement which is to follow? [ref: Hebrews 9:27]
I mean, if the beast and false prophet are indeed individual men, then where is their appearance before the judgement throne after they have left the body?
[ref: 2 Corinthians 5:10]

Hello Nebuchadnezzar,

In regards to your question, it is obvious that the beast and the false prophet don't pass go and do not collect $200, but go straight to the lake of fire.

Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Regarding "people are destined to die once," I would remind you that immediately after the resurrection, the living in Christ do not die, but are changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and caught up with those who will have just resurrected - (I Cor.15:52-53). So, there are obvious exceptions to this scripture.

2 Corinthians 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

The "we" in the scripture above, is referring to believers who will be judged, not for their sins, but to receive reward or loss of reward. In opposition, at the end of the millennial kingdom the unrighteous death throughout all history will be resurrected to be judged at the great white throne. These are two different judgments, the latter of which believers are not judged at.

 

[GaryA]

Consider:

Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days { Trumpet events }

30 And then { Return of Christ }

31 { Rapture }

 

[GaryA]

Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days { Trumpet events }

30 And then { Return of Christ }

31 { Rapture }

Trumpet events immediately follow END of tribulation.

The Return of Christ follows that.

Then - Resurrection and Rapture

 

[GaryA]

It really is that simple...

What does the Bible actually say?