The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

[GaryA]

Consider:

Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What tribulation? What days?

(defined in Matthew 24:21-22)

What does the Bible tell us?

It tells us that a certain "collection of occurances" - described in verse 29 - "come to pass" - "immediately after" - the tribulation.

The words "And then" at the beginning of verse 30 tell us that what follows (in the verse) will occur after the "collection of occurances" from verse 29.

So then, we can establish with certainty the correct order of these three things:

1a - tribulation of those days
1b - [ends] (based on context)
2a - collection of occurances
2b - [ends] (based on context)
3a - events of verse 30
2b - (followed by)
3c - events of verse 31

To be continued...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"Falling away"
Is not there in the greek.
It ONLY says "departure"
Now,read it with "departure"

Right. And the first seven English translations (before the kjv) have it translated as "the departure" (or 'the departing [noun]').

In other writings of that era used it in "the departing of a fever" or "the departure of a boat from a dock" (i.e. a spatial/geographical "departure"). Other contexts where used, have additional words clarifying "WHAT KIND" of departure.

[quoting an old post of mine]

V.3 - "that day [the time period from the immediately preceding verse, grammatically] will not be present if not shall have come the departure [noun] first, and [this "and" means it is entirely distinct from the previous thing, which was alone "first" (one thing "first" only) [and (distinctly)-->] the man of sin be revealed..."

This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence that 1Th4-5 also stated.

Here is the color-coded words to illustrate those 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -

1)

the departure first

and the man of sin

be revealed

2)

what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that

he

might be revealed IN HIS TIME

3)

only he who is now [at present] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]

and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked

be revealed

All of the green is referring to the noun-event of verse 1 (of the context).

Verse 2 is referring to the earthly time period that will thereafter unfold on the earth, [with] the "man of sin" and all he will do, and will involve "judgments" and "the wrath coming" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13, Rev4-5, (Lam2:3-4), etc]

[end quoting]



____________

The "he, he, he, of Daniel 9:27[26] is the "who, who, who" of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9

("whose, who, whom"--the BEGINNING, MIDDLE, and END of the entire "7-yr" period [in BOTH passages])

 

[GaryA]

2b - (followed by)

3b - (followed by)

 

[jb]

You just don't get it.
Only Israelites are witnessing post Rapture. The Church has vacated the earth end of Chapter 3. Read Rev ch 4:1. Kicks off the post-rapture period of the final 7 years.

The Lord Jesus said that only false prophets would teach a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture, and that His second coming will be in great power and glory, accompanied by great noise, every eye seeing Him. Matt 24v23-31, Titus 2v13, 2Peter 3v10-12, Rev 1v7.

Rev 7v9,10,14 clearly teaches that the Church (for it is the Church to whom the commission to preach the Gospel was given to, Matt 24v14) will come "out of" (the Greek preposition "ek", NOT "apo" which means "away from"), "the tribulation, the great one" (2 definite articles). To come "out of" something you have to be first "in it."

The great multitude that no man could number who come out of the great tribulation are those who are saved and kept during it as a result of the last great revival (and the preaching of the Gospel by the Church) of this age that precedes the Lord 2nd Coming! Acts 2v17-21.

Its a great pity that the false prophets who teach a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture haven't bother to investigate its origin!

 

[cv5]

The Lord Jesus said that only false prophets would teach a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture, and that His second coming will be in great power and glory, accompanied by great noise, every eye seeing Him. Matt 24v23-31, Titus 2v13, 2Peter 3v10-12, Rev 1v7.

Rev 7v9,10,14 clearly teaches that the Church (for it is the Church to whom the commission to preach the Gospel was given to, Matt 24v14) will come "out of" (the Greek preposition "ek", NOT "apo" which means "away from"), "the tribulation, the great one" (2 definite articles). To come "out of" something you have to be first "in it."

The great multitude that no man could number who come out of the great tribulation are those who are saved and kept during it as a result of the last great revival (and the preaching of the Gospel by the Church) of this age that precedes the Lord 2nd Coming! Acts 2v17-21.

Its a great pity that the false prophets who teach a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture haven't bother to investigate its origin!

Only Israelites are witnessing post Rapture. The Church has vacated the earth end of Chapter 3.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Evidence proves you wrong

Pretrib writings have been found dating 300 ad.
You're one of the few that even pull the church fathers card anymore.
Totally debunked

I said "protestant reformers", aka, post Catholic writings.

 

[Hazelelponi]

To add an addendum to my above post:

Perhaps the reformers pulled not only from Scripture, but also from early church teachings, but you have only to know history and Scripture to understand Revelation prophecy, and the reformers taught historicism.

In our days of books for dollars and clicks for cash futurism has gone from a fringe element to about the only thing we see..

And I find that terribly sad, because so many are led astray as a result.

 

[cv5]

To add an addendum to my above post:

Perhaps the reformers pulled not only from Scripture, but also from early church teachings, but you have only to know history and Scripture to understand Revelation prophecy, and the reformers taught historicism.

In our days of books for dollars and clicks for cash futurism has gone from a fringe element to about the only thing we see..

And I find that terribly sad, because so many are led astray as a result.

Get a clue. All prophecy is futurist. Some people get it some don't.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I find the following pretty much debunks the "historicist" viewpoint:

Revelation 1:1's wording "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3] things which must come to pass [<--comp.1:19c/4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" [not things which will unfold over the course of some 2000 years, nor take place "immediately [adverb]," nor "soon [adverb]"], and which 'future things' [comp.1:1/1:19c to 4:1] lead up to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, i.e. chpts 6-19, the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" future, specific/limited time period leading up to the earthly MK age which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19).

This ^ is the same SEQUENCE shown between Matt22:7 and 22:8 (with v.7 being about the 70ad events [comp. with Lk21:23,20 and Lk19:41-44] and THEN v.8's "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" necessarily taking place AFTER the 70ad events [which the LATER writings of (the 95ad) "[The] Revelation" not only qualify, but sound almost identical! (re: Rev1:1[7:3] and Matt22:8)])


Additionally, the SEQUENCE issues in the Olivet Discourse necessitate that sections of them are speaking of completely distinct things (due to the TIMING/CHRONOLOGY words, found in the texts):

--Lk21:12-24a (with b following on from there) describes the 70ad events; but v.12 tells us that these [the 70ad events] must take place "BEFORE" all of the beginning of birth pangs just described in the previous vv.8-11 (meaning, the "SEE then FLEE" comes BEFORE "the beginning of birth pangs")

--whereas in Matt24:4-8 "the beginning of birth pangs" [recall, the 70ad events must unfold FIRST] are what start off the passage and the time-frame (so, here, the "therefore, when ye shall SEE... then... FLEE" is what FOLLOWS "the beginning of birth pangs"--COMPLETELY DISTINCT!)

--also, the way that Lk21:32's "till ALL THESE THINGS be fulfilled" is positioned, coming AFTER v.24's "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations" (and "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL [which correlates with Rev11:2's 42mos/2nd half of future trib]"), this is "proof positive" (as Wm Kelly puts it) that v.32's "ALL" MUST INCLUDE these things as well, and shows the ORDER/SEQUENCE of them


IOW, the SEQUENCE is: 1) Lk21's "SEE-then-FLEE" of the 70ad events, and THEN 2) [far-future] "the beginning of birth pangs" [equaling the SEALS], and THEN 3) Matt24's "SEE-then-FLEE" of an entirely different thing (FOLLOWING "the beginning of birth pangs"). Completely distinct things, according to the "chronology" spelled out in these passages.

 

[Absolutely]

Of course not. The point is that Christ died once for all, and the next item on His agenda is "the judgment" and He will be the judge, notwithstanding His second coming.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

The last words of the bible says "...the spirit and the bride say come..."

Not..."we await your much anticipated judgement"

There is a rythm and spirit to the gathering of the bride.
Tribulation,judgement,horrific events are like ptsd.
Ugly,bad,nasty.
The beauty is found in Jesus.
Therin is the rythm of heaven(in the bride and groom "..come lord Jesus"
He is coming for his bride.
Hide and watch.
It is next

 

[Absolutely]

I've studied plenty, likely far more than yourself.

What I don't do is try to use the Bible as a divination tool.

When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

What's strange is that the moment we are saved we have come into the land the Lord our God has given us..

yet.. there are all manner of people doing these practices, and trying to use the Bible to do them..

Thing is, the Bible clearly reveals what it is talking about, and we can see the fulfillment of the prophecies, many prior to Christ's death, and we see everything played clearly out in early church history. and still playing out today..

We wait only upon very little and the seekers of signs will find themselves caught unawares, just as the Bible says.

Nobody takes those wild claims seriously.
"...burning their children and contacting the dead..."
Nobody here or anywhere (except crazies and hillary) are doing that.

 

[Absolutely]

There are no "biblically-defined 'SIGNS'" that precede our Rapture.

ALL of the "biblically-defined 'SIGNS'" FOLLOW our Rapture, and take place WITHIN and DURING the future, specific, limited time-period [7-yrs] which leads UP TO [and these 'SIGNS' point toward-->] His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (not our Rapture).




[note: this is not to say that we ('the Church which is His body' [to whom "the Rapture" SOLELY pertains]) are completely clueless; Scripture itself has much to say... much more than we (as a Body) commonly realize]

I mostly agree

In mat 25 the bride gets 2 heads up whats about to happen.
There was an ANTICIPATION component in her dna that KNEW He was coming soon.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Nobody takes those wild claims seriously.
"...burning their children and contacting the dead..."
Nobody here or anywhere (except crazies and hillary) are doing that.

Are you alright?

You realize I quoted from Deuteronomy 18:9-12 right?

I did bold the part to which I thought relevant, however.

Is there a particular issue you have with scripture being quoted? Or do you not know it well enough to recognize a quote from it.. ?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I mostly agree

In mat 25 the bride gets 2 heads up whats about to happen.
There was an ANTICIPATION component in her dna that KNEW He was coming soon.

While you and I muchly agree on many things , we continue to disagree on the identity of the "10 Virgins [/5 Virgins]"... I continue to believe they are NOT who He is coming to MARRY, but are who will ENTER the MK age in mortal bodies ("the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" Matt25:10nasb; Matt22:8-14; Rev19:9 [distinct from 19:7]; Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44; etc... The "BLESSED" of about 10 or so passages in the Gospels and Revelation, as well as Daniel 12:12 [re: their entrance into the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom; NOT our Rapture ])


IOW, I do not believe "the 10 [or 5] Virgins [plural]" are "the Bride/Wife [singular]" (He will be returning as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom, at that point [Matt25:1-13, etc], "WITH [G4862 - UNIONED-with]" His already-wed "Bride/Wife [singular]"--these passages FOLLOW that point...)

 

[Absolutely]

To add an addendum to my above post:

Perhaps the reformers pulled not only from Scripture, but also from early church teachings, but you have only to know history and Scripture to understand Revelation prophecy, and the reformers taught historicism.

In our days of books for dollars and clicks for cash futurism has gone from a fringe element to about the only thing we see..

And I find that terribly sad, because so many are led astray as a result.

With israel out of the picture.
They FORMED an opinion.
Show me anywhere...ANYWHERE, you can point to a postrib rapture.
You can't and neither could they.
Again....their opinion was BASED on Israel's ABSENCE.

That is WHY strange mess like "those in israel are not true jews" type of wild statements are briught to the table.
Postrib rapture is history,if the pretrib verses are on the table.
Do your own experiment. Think of the times you have heard your like minded teachers mention the bride,the groom,the 10 virgins,or the catholics attempting to wipe out pretrib adherants and their writings.

Solid facts are OFF the table.
Bizarre!

 

[Absolutely]

Are you alright?

You realize I quoted from Deuteronomy 18:9-12 right?

I did bold the part to which I thought relevant, however.

Is there a particular issue you have with scripture being quoted? Or do you not know it well enough to recognize a quote from it.. ?

You wrote it
I quoted you
Then you say "are you alright"
Lol

 

[Absolutely]

To add an addendum to my above post:

Perhaps the reformers pulled not only from Scripture, but also from early church teachings, but you have only to know history and Scripture to understand Revelation prophecy, and the reformers taught historicism.

In our days of books for dollars and clicks for cash futurism has gone from a fringe element to about the only thing we see..

And I find that terribly sad, because so many are led astray as a result.

Apparently,after reading that,you believe "futurism" is divination.

I hope you are not actually saying that.
Maube you can clarify

 

[Absolutely]

Are you alright?

You realize I quoted from Deuteronomy 18:9-12 right?

I did bold the part to which I thought relevant, however.

Is there a particular issue you have with scripture being quoted? Or do you not know it well enough to recognize a quote from it.. ?

They crucified Jesus on their understanding of scripture.
Your understanding of scripture is not meritorious.
Neither is taking verses that are not fulfilled and convincing those in your circles they are,meritorious.
And no,nobody here can quote duteronomy like you verbatum.

 

[Absolutely]

Get a clue. All prophecy is futurist. Some people get it some don't.

Especially since rev is dated around 90 ad and the historicist thinks he was shown history,not prophecy

 

[Hazelelponi]

They crucified Jesus on their understanding of scripture.
Your understanding of scripture is not meritorious.
Neither is taking verses that are not fulfilled and convincing those in your circles they are,meritorious.
And no,nobody here can quote duteronomy like you verbatum.

They crucified Jesus on their understanding of scripture?

The protestant reformers did?

Ohhhkay...

If your going to talk about prophecy, it helps to actually know what scripture says.. when you don't know scripture, your beliefs are derived from those who sell books and make money off clicks.

Know Scripture and you will recognise the deceiver.