John MacArthur claims "no allegories in Scripture" - dispensationalist delusions
- Thread starter UnitedWithChrist
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I disagree that it "doesn't work with that"... and this is b/c of what I'd put in earlier posts... the misunderstanding that Eph1:10 is [referring to and] taking place in the NOW (it isn't, but in "the AGE [SINGULAR] to come" [the MK age (singular)]), though Eph1:20-23 IS the NOW (the Church which is His body [Jew and Gentile, IN "ONE BODY" no distinction "IN Christ"--"in this present AGE [SINGULAR]"/NOW]).
Keep in mind, too, that "the beast and the false prophet" are cast ALIVE into...
and then the later [time-wise] passage saying (when Satan is then also cast into) "where are also the beast and the false prophet" Rev20:10 (I would consider this very similar wording to that of Isaiah 24 [re: the "prison" and the "pit"... because even Satan is said to be "loosed out of his prison" following the MK years--I'm just saying, comparable ideas, not that the beast and the false prophet are loosed, nor any others...etc])
and then the later [time-wise] passage saying (when Satan is then also cast into) "where are also the beast and the false prophet" Rev20:10 (I would consider this very similar wording to that of Isaiah 24 [re: the "prison" and the "pit"... because even Satan is said to be "loosed out of his prison" following the MK years--I'm just saying, comparable ideas, not that the beast and the false prophet are loosed, nor any others...etc])
I'm going to look at this a little more closely,
because BibleHub says this (re: H953):
"5 (in poetry & late; never with article) pit of the grave Proverbs 28:17;"
[in the study of Isaiah 24:21-22[23]'s use of "pit [H953]" ]
because BibleHub says this (re: H953):
"5 (in poetry & late; never with article) pit of the grave Proverbs 28:17;"
[in the study of Isaiah 24:21-22[23]'s use of "pit [H953]" ]
I'll advise you not to refer to amillennialism as a system with clear errors. Amillenialism is more credible for me than dispensationalism by far. 
The idea that there are two separate people of God is abhorrent to me in light of union with Christ, and Eph 2:13-15. There is only one man, not two, and the Gentile is a spiritual descendant of Abraham, and entitled to the entire world, shared with their fellow seed, Jesus. This is clear from Gal 3 and Rom 4 too.
Just these simple points are enough to convince me dispensationalism is messed up. Essentially my understanding of Christianity circles around union with Christ. and dispensationalism simply clashes with that. I haven't examined historical premillennialism to see if it clashes in a similar manner, but I don't think it does. So, I haven't discounted it.
The idea that there are two separate people of God is abhorrent to me in light of union with Christ, and Eph 2:13-15. There is only one man, not two, and the Gentile is a spiritual descendant of Abraham, and entitled to the entire world, shared with their fellow seed, Jesus. This is clear from Gal 3 and Rom 4 too.
Just these simple points are enough to convince me dispensationalism is messed up. Essentially my understanding of Christianity circles around union with Christ. and dispensationalism simply clashes with that. I haven't examined historical premillennialism to see if it clashes in a similar manner, but I don't think it does. So, I haven't discounted it.
Jesus stated that all prophecy would be fulfilled in the days of vengeance:
(Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.)
(Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.)
Hopefully you won't pull a dispensationalists here in Luke 21:22 and claim He didn't mean ALL but some. ALL is also stated by Peter to confirm Jesus' statement:
(Acts 3:24 “And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days.)
Peter previously stated "these days" were the last days he was living in:
(Acts 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, God says "that I will pour forth my spirit. . . ) etc.
The last days of Peter prophetic announcements advanced to the last hour went John wrote of the antichrists:
(1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. )
Paul also stated that the prophetic events in the bible and reiterated by Christ were coming to completion and that the goal or point aimed at was coming true when he wrote, not hundreds of years later.
(1 Cor 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.)
Paul used telos (ends):
--------------------------------
G5056 telos tel'-os
from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal);
properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid).
--------------------------------
What Paul is saying is the goal of the ages was being fulfilled in his days (Peter's "last days") which was the fulfillment of "all things" in "the days vengeance" as stated by Christ in Luke 21:22.
To be looking for further prophetic fulfillment is to misread simple statements in the bible.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
It seems (to me) that this is indeed the case (though I'm not proficient in reading Hebrew)… but it appears to me that where the word is used (for example) in the following verses, the article IS present (so meaning, "a pit hole," as you'd said):
Gen37:20,22,24[2x],28,29[2x]; 40:15; 41:14
… but "never with article" it means "pit of the grave" (like in Prov28:17)… there is no article in its usage in Isa24:22 (at least, from what I can tell)
Gen37:20,22,24[2x],28,29[2x]; 40:15; 41:14
… but "never with article" it means "pit of the grave" (like in Prov28:17)… there is no article in its usage in Isa24:22 (at least, from what I can tell)
search the scriptures;
for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of Me.
(John 5:39)
'search' is imperative; that's a commandment. for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of Me.
(John 5:39)
some translations say 'you search the scriptures' -- as though Jesus is describing what they do -- but this isn't faithful to the language. He is telling them, search, not commenting that they do.
search the scriptures.
they testify of Him.
good luck keeping this, the commandment of Christ, if you think there are no allegories in scripture.
good luck understanding Samson, who 'began to save his people' - good luck understanding why two bears mauled the young men accosting Elisha. good luck comprehending why a lion stood watch in the way over a dead prophet and a donkey.
the Bible is 100% literal. and it 100% speaks of Jesus Christ -- a mystery hidden until His appearing. it's soaked in allegory and picture and shadow and type.
this is pretty weird; i've not listened to much of Mssr MacArthur, not for many years, but he has a high reputation.
Perhaps I am wrong..but are you a full preterist?
Obviously Jesus has not returned bodily yet, the resurrection has not occurred, and the New Heavens and New Earth are not in place, therefore the age to come has not been consummated (although it has been inaugurated).
But perhaps I misunderstand your point.
Obviously Jesus has not returned bodily yet, the resurrection has not occurred, and the New Heavens and New Earth are not in place, therefore the age to come has not been consummated (although it has been inaugurated).
But perhaps I misunderstand your point.
It can also be used as a holding place, like a prison, so I wouldn't be persuaded. I don't think it's referring necessarily to death. Additionally, the phrase that's indicating a long interval of time could be referring to the reign of the wicked during this present evil age.
That is one problem with using the genre of prophecy to construct doctrine. It is not clear like the Gospels and the epistles. If I start with a preconceived teaching that I've been indoctrinated with, I can read the verses according to my presuppositions and make it say what I want.
That is one problem with using the genre of prophecy to construct doctrine. It is not clear like the Gospels and the epistles. If I start with a preconceived teaching that I've been indoctrinated with, I can read the verses according to my presuppositions and make it say what I want.
-
1
- Show all
Did you happen to see my Post #86, where I'd said:
It seems (to me) that this is indeed the case (though I'm not proficient in reading Hebrew)… but it appears to me that where the word is used (for example) in the following verses, the article IS present (so meaning, "a pit hole," as you'd said):
Gen37:20,22,24[2x],28,29[2x]; 40:15; 41:14
… but [where used as] "never with article" it means "pit of the grave" (like in Prov28:17)… there is no article in its usage in Isa24:22 (at least, from what I can tell)
____________
Then, we can also compare how Isaiah 27:12-13 is paralleling/correlating with Matthew 24:29-31 (referring to [believing remnant of] Israel being gathered [ONE by ONE] to worship the Lord IN JERUSALEM [AFTER the trib!])...
because both of these passages (Isa24:21-23 and Isa27:12-13) are a part of what is commonly called "the little apocalypse" (I can see the correlations!)
[see also Ezek37:12-14,20-23... also regarding "Israel" coming up out of the "graveyard of nations, where scattered" (which OTHER passages also LIKEN to a "resurrection"! [Rom11:15, Dan12:1-4, Isa26:16-21, etc])]
It seems (to me) that this is indeed the case (though I'm not proficient in reading Hebrew)… but it appears to me that where the word is used (for example) in the following verses, the article IS present (so meaning, "a pit hole," as you'd said):
Gen37:20,22,24[2x],28,29[2x]; 40:15; 41:14
… but [where used as] "never with article" it means "pit of the grave" (like in Prov28:17)… there is no article in its usage in Isa24:22 (at least, from what I can tell)
____________
Then, we can also compare how Isaiah 27:12-13 is paralleling/correlating with Matthew 24:29-31 (referring to [believing remnant of] Israel being gathered [ONE by ONE] to worship the Lord IN JERUSALEM [AFTER the trib!])...
because both of these passages (Isa24:21-23 and Isa27:12-13) are a part of what is commonly called "the little apocalypse" (I can see the correlations!)
[see also Ezek37:12-14,20-23... also regarding "Israel" coming up out of the "graveyard of nations, where scattered" (which OTHER passages also LIKEN to a "resurrection"! [Rom11:15, Dan12:1-4, Isa26:16-21, etc])]
I don't go along with the equation elect = believing portion of Israel. I believe it's talking about all those who are living believers when Jesus returns..same as the resurrection. I don't distinguish between Jew and Gentile.
However, I do believe there will be a lot of Jews who will come to Christ just before his return, in fact virtually all of the living Jews at that time. AND they will be resurrected and glorified with the rest of those who belong to Jesus.
However, I do believe there will be a lot of Jews who will come to Christ just before his return, in fact virtually all of the living Jews at that time. AND they will be resurrected and glorified with the rest of those who belong to Jesus.
Well, I'm definitely not saying the Jews are the only ones (at that time) who will ENTER the MK age [as "saints"]... recall, I had mentioned (I think in this thread) the "Sheep [of the nations (PLURAL)]" who will ALSO ENTER [as "saints"] (whereas "the least of these My brethren," v.40 is not talking about those BEING judged/separated in this passage, but those [believing remnant of Jews/Israel] whom the nations either AIDED/BLESSED [and these will be called "ye BLESSED" by our Lord], or did NOT AID/BLESS [these will be called "ye CURSED" by our Lord]--recalling a particular OT passage...).
The believing remnant of Israel will be the ones DOING the INVITING [to the MK / wedding FEAST/SUPPER] all during the trib years, i.e. the Matt24:14[26:13] msg (also in Matt22:8-14). That is DURING the trib (not "in this present age").
The believing remnant of Israel will be the ones DOING the INVITING [to the MK / wedding FEAST/SUPPER] all during the trib years, i.e. the Matt24:14[26:13] msg (also in Matt22:8-14). That is DURING the trib (not "in this present age").
The "new heavens and earth" are in place, the old "heaven and earth" of Israel are gone.
This is when God created the covenant "heavens and earth" when he gave the law to Moses and the children of Israel:
(Isa 51:16 And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens,
Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ )
Isaiah speaks of the destruction of the physical nation and the related "heavens and earth" and the creation of the new covenant "heaven and earth" here:
(Isa 65:15 You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen; For the Lord GOD will slay you, And call His servants by another name )
(Isa 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.)
After apostate Israel (Babylon) of the 1st century was slain in vengeance for killing the prophets in John's revelation, John declares the "new heaven and earth".
(Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. )
John sees no more sea (nations) because they all are His rather than the one nation that broke the covenant.
Failure to correctly identify apostate Israel of the 1st century as "Babylon"leads to various eschatological errors and the attending confusion created.
This is when God created the covenant "heavens and earth" when he gave the law to Moses and the children of Israel:
(Isa 51:16 And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens,
Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ )
Isaiah speaks of the destruction of the physical nation and the related "heavens and earth" and the creation of the new covenant "heaven and earth" here:
(Isa 65:15 You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen; For the Lord GOD will slay you, And call His servants by another name )
(Isa 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.)
After apostate Israel (Babylon) of the 1st century was slain in vengeance for killing the prophets in John's revelation, John declares the "new heaven and earth".
(Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. )
John sees no more sea (nations) because they all are His rather than the one nation that broke the covenant.
Failure to correctly identify apostate Israel of the 1st century as "Babylon"leads to various eschatological errors and the attending confusion created.
You mention that all things "written" fulfilled (seems like Jesus stating from psalms, prophets Law ect.),,,,, by "everything" do you mean the prophesies that the sons and daughters prophecy also and the prophecies the two witnesses give in their days along with the "things that had been written" when he said that?
I operate within a two-age system..the present evil age, and the age to come. I don't think there is a millennial interval in between. This is the way it looks like Jesus and the apostles viewed it, and I do not hold to the view of Rev. 20 that dispensationalists hold. In fact, I don't view Revelation as being a linear progression of events, but a series of at least four visions that have overlapping content in some regards.
For instance, there is a noticeable difference between the end of Rev 11 and the beginning of Rev 12. Those who hold the view that Revelation is sequential have issues with this. And, once this view is taken away, then the dispensatlonalist interpretation lacks credibility in my mind.
However, I could be wrong My fundamental commitment is to Christ and not to a particular eschatological system.
For instance, there is a noticeable difference between the end of Rev 11 and the beginning of Rev 12. Those who hold the view that Revelation is sequential have issues with this. And, once this view is taken away, then the dispensatlonalist interpretation lacks credibility in my mind.
However, I could be wrong
My fundamental commitment is to Christ and not to a particular eschatological system.
About the return of Christ, be honest to yourself. Christ is a life giving spirit so no one can say, "look, there He is or here He comes".
Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Mark 9:1 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power.”
Luke 9:27 But I tell you truthfully, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."
Matt 26:64“You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Mark 9:1 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power.”
Luke 9:27 But I tell you truthfully, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."
Matt 26:64“You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
I'm on the statement "the return of Christ". I believe it is a spiritual reality now and all along, rather than a physical appearance of Christ sometime in the future. Jesus at His sentencing said that same thing "..from now on, you'll see the son of man sitting at the right hand of God and coming with the clouds of heaven"
How can this then turn into an event in the distant future when He was actually telling the Sanhedrin and those in attendance in the 1st century.
How can this then turn into an event in the distant future when He was actually telling the Sanhedrin and those in attendance in the 1st century.