Marcelo, I believe you asked me to read this. I forgot about it, then when I went back to find the original post, there were so many other posts that it was hard to find the original one..plus I am older and sometimes I forget
My position would be that Jesus did, indeed, teach salvation by grace, but it was in a veiled manner prior to the Cross, and the ideas are embedded within his remarks. They were shadowy references rather than specific statements, because the atonement on the Cross had not occurred yet.
Luke 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
So, the publican was justified by his humble appeal to God, versus the Pharisee, who boasted in HIS works and was no justified.
Discussions regarding this topic are affected by one's understanding of dispensationalism. If you are listening to a teacher who is dispensational, he will have one view of the continuity of the law, and a covenant theologian will have more continuity and view the progression of salvation in a more organic manner.
You may find this video to be interesting:
https://t4g.org/media/2010/06/did-jesus-preach-pauls-gospel-session-vi-2/
I believe this will show you that Jesus did preach Paul's gospel, in a veiled sort of way, but the principles are still there.
By the way, Jesus didn't need to use the exact word "grace" to teach the same concepts.
I believe the author has a point, in that the primary emphasis of Jesus was to focus on the Law, and to convict those who heard him of their failure to keep the Law, so that they would be ready to receive grace when the atonement was completed, and at the preaching by the apostles. However, anyone who was saved prior to Jesus' atonement was saved through the Cross, and not through a different way. They may not have understood all the details, but they were saved by grace through faith alone, in God's ultimate provision, which was Christ.
Piper is not my favorite teacher but if I remember right, I agreed with him on the points he brings up here.
By the way, my position on the Mosaic Covenant is that it exhibited a works principle and a grace principle, but only in a shadow and type form. I don't believe the Mosaic Covenant observance saved anyone, but promised them long life in the land.
The grace principle was exhibited through the possibility of atonement for sins through blood sacrifices, which pointed toward Christ. The works principle was exhibited through the commandments, and the blessings which were conditional upon obedience. No one was perfectly obedient to the law, and in effect, it cursed them. Jesus would remove the curse from them, through his death to the law on the Cross. Believers are joined to Jesus, therefore they have died to the Law, too, and no longer live under its' curse. They are to be obedient to the commandments of God that apply to them, but this obedience is a fruit of their union with Christ.
So I am not sure if these remarks help you, but you might try emailing me directly if you want further clarification. This thread is very long and it is hard to follow sometimes.
My position would be that Jesus did, indeed, teach salvation by grace, but it was in a veiled manner prior to the Cross, and the ideas are embedded within his remarks. They were shadowy references rather than specific statements, because the atonement on the Cross had not occurred yet.
Luke 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
So, the publican was justified by his humble appeal to God, versus the Pharisee, who boasted in HIS works and was no justified.
Discussions regarding this topic are affected by one's understanding of dispensationalism. If you are listening to a teacher who is dispensational, he will have one view of the continuity of the law, and a covenant theologian will have more continuity and view the progression of salvation in a more organic manner.
You may find this video to be interesting:
https://t4g.org/media/2010/06/did-jesus-preach-pauls-gospel-session-vi-2/
I believe this will show you that Jesus did preach Paul's gospel, in a veiled sort of way, but the principles are still there.
By the way, Jesus didn't need to use the exact word "grace" to teach the same concepts.
I believe the author has a point, in that the primary emphasis of Jesus was to focus on the Law, and to convict those who heard him of their failure to keep the Law, so that they would be ready to receive grace when the atonement was completed, and at the preaching by the apostles. However, anyone who was saved prior to Jesus' atonement was saved through the Cross, and not through a different way. They may not have understood all the details, but they were saved by grace through faith alone, in God's ultimate provision, which was Christ.
Piper is not my favorite teacher but if I remember right, I agreed with him on the points he brings up here.
By the way, my position on the Mosaic Covenant is that it exhibited a works principle and a grace principle, but only in a shadow and type form. I don't believe the Mosaic Covenant observance saved anyone, but promised them long life in the land.
The grace principle was exhibited through the possibility of atonement for sins through blood sacrifices, which pointed toward Christ. The works principle was exhibited through the commandments, and the blessings which were conditional upon obedience. No one was perfectly obedient to the law, and in effect, it cursed them. Jesus would remove the curse from them, through his death to the law on the Cross. Believers are joined to Jesus, therefore they have died to the Law, too, and no longer live under its' curse. They are to be obedient to the commandments of God that apply to them, but this obedience is a fruit of their union with Christ.
So I am not sure if these remarks help you, but you might try emailing me directly if you want further clarification. This thread is very long and it is hard to follow sometimes.
I agree that Jesus hinted at salvation by grace. For example: “my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
In the video you linked, John Piper says he believes that the Lord gave us four Gospels so that we can more fully and accurately see and savor the glories of the Savior. A little further along he says: “Where we meet and fellowship with Jesus is in the Gospels”.
I agree on the importance of the four Gospels and I was a red letter Christian for 29 years. But it is undeniable that there are differences between Jesus and Paul. Whom should we follow when they disagree?
Jesus said: “keep the commandments”; “sell that ye have and give alms”; “obey the scribes and the Pharisees”; “show yourself to the priest and offer sacrifices”; “wash one another’s feet”; “give to the one who begs from you”; “from the one taking away your cloak, also do not withhold the tunic”.
I had a friend some 30 years ago who caused a lot of trouble in many churches accusing pastors of preaching a watered down Gospel because they wouldn’t follow the red letters. He gave away his material assets and started living off his friends. Then he quit his job as an airline pilot because the salary was too high and Jesus said the rich would not enter heaven. The interesting thing is that no pastor could prove him wrong according to Scripture.
Another interesting thing is that my friend knew what Paul said to Timothy:
Here’s what you say to those wealthy in regard to this age: “Don’t become high and mighty or place all your hope on a gamble for riches; instead, fix your hope on God, the One who richly provides everything for our enjoyment.” 18 Tell them to use their wealth for good things.
My friend knew the portion of Scripture above, but claimed that it was in disagreement with Jesus’ teachings and in that case he should stick with what the Lord said.
Most denominations (mine included) still teach that Jesus and Paul preached the exact same thing and only a small minority teaches otherwise. See links below.
How can we follow Jesus if we don’t know exactly what He wants from us?
Don’t you think it’s about time Christians all over the world start dedicating more attention to this issue?