It's nice to see that even though we all don't see things the same, we all still stayed pretty civil with one another. That says a lot about everyone in this conversation in my opinion.
Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?
- Thread starter Marcelo
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Post and I joined the same year. 2013. So it's probably true, but you can't search past a year or two for threads after this site moved to the new platform. Older conversations were lost forever.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Non of it is true. Including what you are assuming about his belief. That’s why he sent you on a wild goose chase.
That was the joke
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
You can still see them just have to know how to find them it’s not as easy. The search function does not work as well
I've already cleared it up at least three times. It IS a good point that you've brought up.
But it ignores this;
Romans 14:1-5
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
So where's the median point between that and this?;
Galatians 3:10-12
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
I believe it is right here;
1 Timothy 1:5-10
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
So, what do you tell a legalist, who doesn't understand what they say nor affirm when they are trying to show all their excuses for working at the law?
Do you show them Romans 14 or do you show them Galatians 3? Don't they have to understand Galatians 3 before they can even start to understand Romans 14???
I believe you show Romans 14 to someone who is being possibly overly judgemental on obvious Christians who may be a little weak in the faith. (I know you probably think this applies to me... and I have to admit that it probably does. But shouldn't the weak listen to the strong and try to get stronger in the faith as well??) Where do you draw the line on the weakness of someones faith until it looks as though its non-existent.
You would think that one who is weak in faith wouldn't be teaching others how to be weak in the faith as well, right? I suppose that is where I take exception. I hope you understand.
I believe you show Galatians 3 to all the legalists and judaizers.
Did you know that nothing is lost forever in cyberspace? On the other hand, no one has the time to delve into masses of ancient conversations.
Marcelo, I believe you asked me to read this. I forgot about it, then when I went back to find the original post, there were so many other posts that it was hard to find the original one..plus I am older and sometimes I forget
My position would be that Jesus did, indeed, teach salvation by grace, but it was in a veiled manner prior to the Cross, and the ideas are embedded within his remarks. They were shadowy references rather than specific statements, because the atonement on the Cross had not occurred yet.
Luke 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
So, the publican was justified by his humble appeal to God, versus the Pharisee, who boasted in HIS works and was no justified.
Discussions regarding this topic are affected by one's understanding of dispensationalism. If you are listening to a teacher who is dispensational, he will have one view of the continuity of the law, and a covenant theologian will have more continuity and view the progression of salvation in a more organic manner.
You may find this video to be interesting:
https://t4g.org/media/2010/06/did-jesus-preach-pauls-gospel-session-vi-2/
I believe this will show you that Jesus did preach Paul's gospel, in a veiled sort of way, but the principles are still there.
By the way, Jesus didn't need to use the exact word "grace" to teach the same concepts.
I believe the author has a point, in that the primary emphasis of Jesus was to focus on the Law, and to convict those who heard him of their failure to keep the Law, so that they would be ready to receive grace when the atonement was completed, and at the preaching by the apostles. However, anyone who was saved prior to Jesus' atonement was saved through the Cross, and not through a different way. They may not have understood all the details, but they were saved by grace through faith alone, in God's ultimate provision, which was Christ.
Piper is not my favorite teacher but if I remember right, I agreed with him on the points he brings up here.
By the way, my position on the Mosaic Covenant is that it exhibited a works principle and a grace principle, but only in a shadow and type form. I don't believe the Mosaic Covenant observance saved anyone, but promised them long life in the land.
The grace principle was exhibited through the possibility of atonement for sins through blood sacrifices, which pointed toward Christ. The works principle was exhibited through the commandments, and the blessings which were conditional upon obedience. No one was perfectly obedient to the law, and in effect, it cursed them. Jesus would remove the curse from them, through his death to the law on the Cross. Believers are joined to Jesus, therefore they have died to the Law, too, and no longer live under its' curse. They are to be obedient to the commandments of God that apply to them, but this obedience is a fruit of their union with Christ.
So I am not sure if these remarks help you, but you might try emailing me directly if you want further clarification. This thread is very long and it is hard to follow sometimes.
Thanks, I was scratching my head. Kinda knew he wouldn't do that. Thanks for the heads up on the site navigation.
"Ack!!" Where have you been lurking, Grandpa?! You startled me.
I think the first place to start is by not prejudging or labeling people names because such is "actual" judgment against them (contrary to them being falsely accused of judging and condemning simply for saying "hey there are laws to follow").
I think that's the first place to start because it opens up dialogue and doesn't place folks on the defensive.
You know, not projecting the spirit of judgment onto them that one is actually engaged it against them through labels.
I mean, if indeed we're considering having charity of a pure heart and conscience, that's probably the very first step.
That is EXACTLY the thought that CAUSES Galatians 3:10 to be quoted.
That is EXACTLY the thought that CAUSES the term Judaizer and Legalist to be applied.
There is a reason to point someone to the Law. It is for an UNBELIEVER to see that they are not Righteous before God by their works.
After they have come to Christ they should know that they are no longer under the law but under Grace.
So someone telling Christians who have come to Christ that there are laws to follow pretty much contradicts most of the Epistles.
And this is precisely because Christ does a WAY better job perfecting the Christian than the law does for legalists.
How does a Christian not know this? Well a legalist doesn't know because the vail is still over their minds.
But when a Christian is told that Christ does a better job of perfecting them than their work and understanding of the law I think they understand perfectly.
Is this condemnation? Only if you don't know Christ.
The word that I remembered was treacherous but I guess it was deceitful... kind of the same I suppose...
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren (for I speak to them that know the law) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth but if the husband be dead, she is loosed fro the law of her husband. So then if while her husband liveth she be married to another man she shall be called an adulteress bot if her husband be dead she is free from that law so that she is no adulteress though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law (the law of Moses has died, (the first husband) (Christ, the new husband is changing the terms of marriage, it will be no longer about the letter written in stone) by the body of Christ that ye should be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God (you have RE married and your NEW husband, the risen Christ, sends the Comforter with the new law written with in our hearts {emotions} and within our minds{intelligence} in.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death (the passions and lusts of the flesh which take charge of the whole body which produces the sinful fruit of the flesh)
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. (No longer the external, spiritless, literal way, which held us captive, called the law of Moses, BUT now in the "new creature", Spirit filled, Spirit power to crucify flesh, the law now written heart and mind liberating us allowing us to serve God with all our heart and soul, no longer the fear of death, no longer feeling condemed)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin but by the law for I had not known lust except the law had said Thou shalt not covet. (We no longer under the law, we obey, serve and worship God under the gospel of love)
8 But sin taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
(The perfect law. How it does open our eyes to our own sin and sinful nature. Isn't it just like the flesh to want something more especially the moment it is told it can no longer have it. How do we measure up? Poorly. Yet without sin there is no repentance. Without repentance there is no progress towards perfection, no growth, no coming closer to walking as Jesus did his walk. The carnal man does not want to be told he is a sinner, wants nothing to do with the Law. The spiritual man does because the law helps him to isolate and kill off the sinful parts that obstruct the way of walking like Christ. The Spirituality of the Law demands a look inward at the lost state of the flesh, the sinful nature and makes known the law can never be perfectly attained, yet the Holy Spirit residing within us, frees us from its hold, frees us from the death of it, and sets us on the path toward that perfection, confident that a stumble is not a fall, a sin is not a death, and with Christ all things are possible.
9 For I was alive without the law once but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
(I was living and breathing and thinking I was doing well, but the law showed me just how far from the mark I was)
10 And the commandment which was ordained to life I found to be unto death.
(Try as a man might, it all just seems to lead to death, must all be perfect)
11 For sin taking occasion by the commandment deceived me and by it slew me.
(Sinful nature deceives men into thinking the law is unreasonable, unrealistic, unattainable and somehow into believing there will be no punishment for unrepentant sin. The deceiving nature of sin our 1st lesson, man pushing away from the culpability of since then, I feel.
12 Wherefore the law is holy and the commandment holy and just and good.
(God the same today, yesterday and tomorrow. I go back through the OT to see what happens when men don't follow Gods laws, or turn from them in favor of their own, convinced it's ok. So far never a good idea. And not hint one that law was ever to be something non applicable to a child of God. If anything, obedience is right up there with Love. But hey, things have continued on as they have always been since Jesus died on the Cross haven't they?
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin that it might appear sin working death in me by that which is good that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual but I am carnal, sold under sin.
(The law is for the spiritual man, not for the "never really saved" man, a man still enslaved to his sinful nature. Carnal words of anger, hostility, belittling, aggressive, abusive, without love, while incapable of words, thoughts, and deeds of humility, meekness, patience, love, charity. The spiritual man charitable, forgiving, encouraging, hopeful, peaceful, I think, a man strong, steadfast, with knowledge and wisdom only spirit led lives can truly understand.
15 For that which I do I allow not for what I would that do I not but what I hate that do I.
(Paul, no matter how much he suffered for the Word, always wanting to do and be better, truly humbled)
.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
(The law of God is perfect to do as well as we can, always moving forward on our walk toward the Lord)
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing for to will is present with me but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man
(My Spiritual man delights in the law, my carnal man wants nothing to do with it)
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
(The Flesh man will remain at odds with the Spiritual man, but repentance is the enemy of the flesh for it is the daily strengthening of the spiritual led, inner man that starts kicking the butt of the flesh one)
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
(Our Father which are in Heaven, Hallowed by Thy name)
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Everyday, I thank the Lord for all the blessing I receive and for the law of God, and every day, with the strength of the Comforter I serve more Him more and more and the law of sin less and less.
The law of Moses was followed and carried out through rituals, ceremonies, rites with statutes and ordinances, all able to make the "outside of a man" look clean, but without the spirit of love as the motivating factor, it wasn't changing in inner man as the inner man as it was meant to. Then came our Lord and Saviour and showed us what true love and faith looked like and walked like sounded like and did so bring into our lives, the law of the Kingdom. Never again would it be "looking" good, but now "becoming" good in our thoughts and intents loving our Father and Creator and Savior with all that we are but about the love, the love of all.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law (the law of Moses has died, (the first husband) (Christ, the new husband is changing the terms of marriage, it will be no longer about the letter written in stone) by the body of Christ that ye should be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God (you have RE married and your NEW husband, the risen Christ, sends the Comforter with the new law written with in our hearts {emotions} and within our minds{intelligence} in.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death (the passions and lusts of the flesh which take charge of the whole body which produces the sinful fruit of the flesh)
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. (No longer the external, spiritless, literal way, which held us captive, called the law of Moses, BUT now in the "new creature", Spirit filled, Spirit power to crucify flesh, the law now written heart and mind liberating us allowing us to serve God with all our heart and soul, no longer the fear of death, no longer feeling condemed)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin but by the law for I had not known lust except the law had said Thou shalt not covet. (We no longer under the law, we obey, serve and worship God under the gospel of love)
8 But sin taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
(The perfect law. How it does open our eyes to our own sin and sinful nature. Isn't it just like the flesh to want something more especially the moment it is told it can no longer have it. How do we measure up? Poorly. Yet without sin there is no repentance. Without repentance there is no progress towards perfection, no growth, no coming closer to walking as Jesus did his walk. The carnal man does not want to be told he is a sinner, wants nothing to do with the Law. The spiritual man does because the law helps him to isolate and kill off the sinful parts that obstruct the way of walking like Christ. The Spirituality of the Law demands a look inward at the lost state of the flesh, the sinful nature and makes known the law can never be perfectly attained, yet the Holy Spirit residing within us, frees us from its hold, frees us from the death of it, and sets us on the path toward that perfection, confident that a stumble is not a fall, a sin is not a death, and with Christ all things are possible.
9 For I was alive without the law once but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
(I was living and breathing and thinking I was doing well, but the law showed me just how far from the mark I was)
10 And the commandment which was ordained to life I found to be unto death.
(Try as a man might, it all just seems to lead to death, must all be perfect)
11 For sin taking occasion by the commandment deceived me and by it slew me.
(Sinful nature deceives men into thinking the law is unreasonable, unrealistic, unattainable and somehow into believing there will be no punishment for unrepentant sin. The deceiving nature of sin our 1st lesson, man pushing away from the culpability of since then, I feel.
12 Wherefore the law is holy and the commandment holy and just and good.
(God the same today, yesterday and tomorrow. I go back through the OT to see what happens when men don't follow Gods laws, or turn from them in favor of their own, convinced it's ok. So far never a good idea. And not hint one that law was ever to be something non applicable to a child of God. If anything, obedience is right up there with Love. But hey, things have continued on as they have always been since Jesus died on the Cross haven't they?
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin that it might appear sin working death in me by that which is good that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual but I am carnal, sold under sin.
(The law is for the spiritual man, not for the "never really saved" man, a man still enslaved to his sinful nature. Carnal words of anger, hostility, belittling, aggressive, abusive, without love, while incapable of words, thoughts, and deeds of humility, meekness, patience, love, charity. The spiritual man charitable, forgiving, encouraging, hopeful, peaceful, I think, a man strong, steadfast, with knowledge and wisdom only spirit led lives can truly understand.
15 For that which I do I allow not for what I would that do I not but what I hate that do I.
(Paul, no matter how much he suffered for the Word, always wanting to do and be better, truly humbled)
.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
(The law of God is perfect to do as well as we can, always moving forward on our walk toward the Lord)
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing for to will is present with me but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man
(My Spiritual man delights in the law, my carnal man wants nothing to do with it)
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
(The Flesh man will remain at odds with the Spiritual man, but repentance is the enemy of the flesh for it is the daily strengthening of the spiritual led, inner man that starts kicking the butt of the flesh one)
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
(Our Father which are in Heaven, Hallowed by Thy name)
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Everyday, I thank the Lord for all the blessing I receive and for the law of God, and every day, with the strength of the Comforter I serve more Him more and more and the law of sin less and less.
The law of Moses was followed and carried out through rituals, ceremonies, rites with statutes and ordinances, all able to make the "outside of a man" look clean, but without the spirit of love as the motivating factor, it wasn't changing in inner man as the inner man as it was meant to. Then came our Lord and Saviour and showed us what true love and faith looked like and walked like sounded like and did so bring into our lives, the law of the Kingdom. Never again would it be "looking" good, but now "becoming" good in our thoughts and intents loving our Father and Creator and Savior with all that we are but about the love, the love of all.
So the publican was justified by his HUMBLE appeal to God, verses the Pharisee, who BOASTED in his works and was not justified. Doesn't that seem a bit more congruous?
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
What is "Ungodliness"? What is "unrighteousness" What is "hold the truth in unrighteousness" mean?
What is "Ungodliness"? What is "unrighteousness" What is "hold the truth in unrighteousness" mean?
Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds
Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath
Is righteous judgment possible without some sort of law? Is there a way to distinguish between right and wrong deeds and if so how is that done? What truth are we to obey? How does one obey Unrighteousness?
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds
Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath
Is righteous judgment possible without some sort of law? Is there a way to distinguish between right and wrong deeds and if so how is that done? What truth are we to obey? How does one obey Unrighteousness?
Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil,
What is evil? How are we to discern between good and evil?
Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good
What is good? How are we to know what good is?
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law Ok I really need help here. When I read this it is saying "sin without the law shall perish" "sinned in the law will be judged by the law" and I think, I would rather be judged than perish.
What is evil? How are we to discern between good and evil?
Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good
What is good? How are we to know what good is?
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law Ok I really need help here. When I read this it is saying "sin without the law shall perish" "sinned in the law will be judged by the law" and I think, I would rather be judged than perish.
Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Who wrote "Romans" again?
Who wrote "Romans" again?
Let's take a look at the context.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:38-39 KJV)
The we are Those who do not sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth. The Just that live by Faith. Those who do not draw back unto destruction.
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(Heb 10:26-31 KJV)
He also says within the same context,
"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?"
(1Co 10:19-22 KJV)