Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[lightbearer]

Greetings Lightbearer,

..... And I'm just waking up so please correct me if I'm off.

SG

Hello and Nice post SimpleGardner.
I think we are all just waking up from being asleep all the time until the Coming of the Lord at the culmination.

 

[posthuman]

Exodus 34 is of the Torah, the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible, the Pentateuch.

Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite. Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
(Exo 34:11-15 KJV)

In regards to things strangled.

Bullinger writes in his work: strangled. Greek. pniktot. Only here, Act_15:29; Act_21:25. The verb pnigo occurs Mat_18:28. Mar_5:13. In this case the blood remained in the carcase, contrary to Lev_17:10-14.

Vincent writes in his word studies, The flesh of animals killed in snares, and whose blood was not poured forth, was forbidden to the Israelites.

They won't hear all of Moses every Sabbath. That takes time and discernment. Hospitality was prevalent. To bring and share food on Sabbath and other days in communion with one another was a common practice, then as it is now. To bring meats that were not properly prepared would have directly affected and offended all that knew better. Besides that, your reasoning does not take away what was shared in regards to context and sentence structure.




Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For (BECAUSE) Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach (teach) him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
(Act 15:19-21 KJV)

There are a few things note worthy in verse 21.

Moses (the Book of the Law, Pentateuch) is still preached, taught in the synagogues where the Household of God meet every Sabbath. And because they do meet every Sabbath in the synagogues they, the gentiles will hear Moses (the Book of the Law, Pentateuch) So we will write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For (BECAUSE) Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach (teach) him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day when they come together in communion and worship.

are they being told to keep the law of Moses?

no.

break one part, guilty of all ((James))
accept circumcision, liable to all ((Paul))

what then, are they being told, and why?

Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”​

If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?​

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God — even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.​

(1 Corinthians 10:25-33)​

when Paul addresses the same subject in his epistle, it is abundantly clear that neither things strangled nor things waved before idols are unclean of themselves. he says, 'eat without raising questions' -- if the council in Acts were instructing the gentile believers in matters of law, then Paul is an heretic, and teaching them to sin - because he says 'eat'
Paul also makes it clear that the transgression is in the conscience of the other person -- because an idol is nothing, and meat is nothing, but to those of weak or no faith at all, they consider it so.

the council in Acts is instructing them not to offend their weaker brothers.
which weaker brothers?

'some believing pharisees stood up and said they must be commanded to keep the law of Moses'

they are being instructed for the sake of others.
which others?

'if an unbeliever invites you to a meal'

 

[posthuman]

​

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.​

(Act 15:19-21 KJV)​

this is only properly understood when it does not conflict with what else is written:

Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
(1 Corinthians 1:29)

I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself.
(Romans 14:14)​

​

The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.
(Romans 14:3)​

​

If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
(Romans 14:15-18)​

​

 

[SimpleGardner]

​

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.​

(Act 15:19-21 KJV)​

this is only properly understood when it does not conflict with what else is written:

Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? ​

(1 Corinthians 1:29)​

​

I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. ​

(Romans 14:14)​

​

The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. ​

(Romans 14:3)​

​

If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval. ​

(Romans 14:15-18)​

​

Greetings PH,

You have certainly done due diligence to citing scripture!

There is so much more to all of the citations. If we recognize that Paul did not eliminate the Law but Established it;

Rom 3:31 KJV Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

From this citation you must bring all thinking on His other citations into compliance with.

With a preset dogma of NO LAW you will never see these things.

Even the "break one guilty of all has a context that is being overridden. You can find a discussion on that context in this thread within the past 2-3 weeks.

This topic has taken on the character of a modern sports franchise. One team against another, win at al costs! This is the adversaries tactic. Divide and conquer. So much vigor and intelligence being wasted on rivalry, and perhaps points of pride, lusts disguised as zeal for truth, etc.

We are all so close to the day when our options to seek and find His ways will close and then the procession towards judgement of all mens works will commence.

Perhaps it is all a foregone conclusion already....

SG

 

[gb9]

Greetings PH,

You have certainly done due diligence to citing scripture!

There is so much more to all of the citations. If we recognize that Paul did not eliminate the Law but Established it;

Rom 3:31 KJV Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

From this citation you must bring all thinking on His other citations into compliance with.

With a preset dogma of NO LAW you will never see these things.

Even the "break one guilty of all has a context that is being overridden. You can find a discussion on that context in this thread within the past 2-3 weeks.

This topic has taken on the character of a modern sports franchise. One team against another, win at al costs! This is the adversaries tactic. Divide and conquer. So much vigor and intelligence being wasted on rivalry, and perhaps points of pride, lusts disguised as zeal for truth, etc.

We are all so close to the day when our options to seek and find His ways will close and then the procession towards judgement of all mens works will commence.

Perhaps it is all a foregone conclusion already....

SG

the point you continue to miss ( and ignore ) is we are to fulfill the righteous intent of the Law by manifesting the fruits of the Sprit, against which there is no law.

we do not fulfill the righteous intent of the Law by living out the letter. the letter kills, the Sprit gives life.

 

[posthuman]

And if all things are clean and the point isn't to make fellow believers stumble, then there wouldn't need to be any dietary laws given to new gentiles believers at all, whether from Torah or (as you suggest) Talmud, right? So no it doesn't jive.

If the whole trouble and debate arose because some believing pharisees were deeply offended by being made brethren with gentiles that they, in the weakness of their conscience, considered unclean?

 

[posthuman]

With a preset dogma of NO LAW you will never see these things.

So long as anyone thinks not being under a single jot or tittle of Moses Law means a believer is lawless, or thinks that a believer is under the Law, they have not understood the gospel.

We have died.
That is how we became free.
No one who has died is liable any more to the law.
The power of sin is the law: sin shall no longer be our master.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Point is that we all would like to obey all of the commandments but the truth is that we can't do it.... at least I don't know of anyone who can do it.

And that is the point I was making about Revelation. Keeping the commandments of God doesn't mean that they obeyed them (we can't), it means that they reverence them and held them up to be special in their hearts.

Amen

That's what separated them from non believers, They obeyed BECAUSE they were saved (their new nature) not in order to get or keep salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is that what you think the following meant?

Luk 1:5-6 KJV There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. (6) And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Gen 26:5 KJV Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

If so what does "keep" mean to you?

Did Abraham keep Gods commands? Seems to me he broke them alot.. That why Abraham is so special. He shows not only the grace of God, but how our faith is increased. Because it was God who proved faithful. Not him

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Luk 1:20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

Does that sound like Zacharias obeyed the ten commandments, his statutes and laws? It doesn't to me lol. He didn't have enough faith to believe an angel from God standing right in front of him.

Just like abraham, and his many flaws

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep, and the ten commandments is directly wrote by God, not moses

and were they not called the ministration of death written on stone?

why were they called this?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He may think It just hallucination, If he know that is real angle from the Lord, I think he believe it

So you do not know for sure?

I think God told us and him (you do not believe)

its good not to try to add to the word somethign not said

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think when the scripture goes as far as to leave us words of praise for the likes of Abraham and Zacharias it should be a hint that we should not dishonor their memory...

Amen
Yet so many do. by refusing to acknoledge things they did. why is this?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Greetings PH,

You have certainly done due diligence to citing scripture!

There is so much more to all of the citations. If we recognize that Paul did not eliminate the Law but Established it;

Rom 3:31 KJV Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

From this citation you must bring all thinking on His other citations into compliance with.

With a preset dogma of NO LAW you will never see these things.

Even the "break one guilty of all has a context that is being overridden. You can find a discussion on that context in this thread within the past 2-3 weeks.

This topic has taken on the character of a modern sports franchise. One team against another, win at al costs! This is the adversaries tactic. Divide and conquer. So much vigor and intelligence being wasted on rivalry, and perhaps points of pride, lusts disguised as zeal for truth, etc.

We are all so close to the day when our options to seek and find His ways will close and then the procession towards judgement of all mens works will commence.

Perhaps it is all a foregone conclusion already....

SG

How does faith establish the law

You and I and many others see it differently.

thats the issue, and that is the root of our disagreement.

Are you open to see what that disagreement is?

 

[gb9]

Did Abraham keep Gods commands? Seems to me he broke them alot.. That why Abraham is so special. He shows not only the grace of God, but how our faith is increased. Because it was God who proved faithful. Not him

they seem to have this weird mindset that we need to keep the Law to generate faith.

their theology is - if you do enough good works, ( Law keeping ), and have enough faith , then God will extend grace to you, as long as you do the works that produce the faith,

this makes sense to the carnel mind, but it is not the Biblical grace, faith, works truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

they seem to have this weird mindset that we need to keep the Law to generate faith.

their theology is - if you do enough good works, ( Law keeping ), and have enough faith , then God will extend grace to you, as long as you do the works that produce the faith,

this makes sense to the carnel mind, but it is not the Biblical grace, faith, works truth.

I am putting together a new thread. How abrahams faith was grown, through his failures.. I have been studying this, and I found that abraham was not so squeeky clean as so many think he is..

 

[SimpleGardner]

So long as anyone thinks not being under a single jot or tittle of Moses Law means a believer is lawless, or thinks that a believer is under the Law, they have not understood the gospel.

We have died.
That is how we became free.
No one who has died is liable any more to the law.
The power of sin is the law: sin shall no longer be our master.

I wouldn't say Lawless, No.

The Laws of God are Eternal Especially the Decalogue (Written In Stone):

Psa 19:9-11 NIV The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the LORD are sure and altogether righteous. (10) They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the comb. (11) By them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.

Unless we negate Revelations, written after many of the verses men used to define Paul's words to say the Law is negated, we can not conclude that His people are released from the commandments, just given a New Heart under the New Covenant with which to Keep them

Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I'm not trying to burden any man who has no desire to Love and keep Gods Commandments. But, I think all men should look for that "heart condition" which gives him the innate desire to do so.

You say we bacame free from the Law , No, we became free from the "Burden" When something assists you to carry a load, same load the Burden is released. The load continued to be carried, but it is easy! Yahshua said;

Mat 11:28-30 NIV "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. (29) Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (30) For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

The essence of His ministry was to purchase our forgiveness and, AND to send the Holy Spirit who would WRITE HIS LAWS UPON OUR HEARTS! Once upon our hearts. That's the freeing from the "Burden" not the commandment.

Any efforts prior to that "change in heart" are a burden, however, after that a delight!

Perhaps men have not been sufficiently informed to look for, wait for, expect, anticipate this as the disciples were told to wait for Pentecost! It was after that that the disciples & apostles could begin to understand the scriptures, Torah, just as when Jesus "Opened the Scriptures" to them. But now the Holy Spirit "lead them into all truth!

Blessings

SG

 

[KJV1611]

I wouldn't say Lawless, No.

The Laws of God are Eternal Especially the Decalogue (Written In Stone):

Psa 19:9-11 NIV The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the LORD are sure and altogether righteous. (10) They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the comb. (11) By them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.

Unless we negate Revelations, written after many of the verses men used to define Paul's words to say the Law is negated, we can not conclude that His people are released from the commandments, just given a New Heart under the New Covenant with which to Keep them

Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I'm not trying to burden any man who has no desire to Love and keep Gods Commandments. But, I think all men should look for that "heart condition" which gives him the innate desire to do so.

You say we bacame free from the Law , No, we became free from the "Burden" When something assists you to carry a load, same load the Burden is released. The load continued to be carried, but it is easy! Yahshua said;

Mat 11:28-30 NIV "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. (29) Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (30) For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

The essence of His ministry was to purchase our forgiveness and, AND to send the Holy Spirit who would WRITE HIS LAWS UPON OUR HEARTS! Once upon our hearts. That's the freeing from the "Burden" not the commandment.

Any efforts prior to that "change in heart" are a burden, however, after that a delight!

Perhaps men have not been sufficiently informed to look for, wait for, expect, anticipate this as the disciples were told to wait for Pentecost! It was after that that the disciples & apostles could begin to understand the scriptures, Torah, just as when Jesus "Opened the Scriptures" to them. But now the Holy Spirit "lead them into all truth!

Blessings

SG

Since your change of heart, have you ever broken any of the 10 commandments? Also are you able to do the good that you want to do and not do the bad that you don't want to do?

 

[SimpleGardner]

Since your change of heart, have you ever broken any of the 10 commandments? Also are you able to do the good that you want to do and not do the bad that you don't want to do?

Good Morning KJV, Look to your own experience and scripture for what to expect, not me.

 

[Yahshua]

If it was not for the fact that you all do this same song and dance, I may agree with you.

But since it is normal action from those who love to preach law. I just consider the source, and take it as further proof that you all have some serious issues to deal with.

And when you call one person out who has a differing belief, but fail to call out people who have the same belief as you. That is called being a hypocrite.

But if thats how you wish to be known. Enjoy.

Does being seen and known a certain way matter more than speaking the truth to you? That's vanity.

You've called me so many labels, do you really think one more label matters to me? Come on, man lol.

Matthew 18:15. You can keep dodging but the truth is truth.