Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[DeighAnn]

That seems reasonable.


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Yes. The Holy Spirit doesn't try to make you do things you can't do. You try to do things you can't do based on your misunderstanding. Based on your works mind-set.

The Holy Spirit teaches us that there is only ONE Way to Righteousness and Godliness and that is Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

This faith produces fruit. This fruit is the epitome of Righteousness and Godliness. Not something we can muster up inside ourselves but what is given as a gift from God. Surely that should seem semi-familiar?


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The Holy Spirit doesn't control our effort, our thoughts or our obedience.

The Holy Spirit only points to Christ.

When we come to Christ and abide in Christ and Trust in Christ that is when the Holy Spirit works in us.

We are still free to turn away from the Holy Spirits teaching and turn to our own works at the law, or whatever other imaginary things that a person thinks causes their obedience.

I try not to turn back to my own work. But after a whole lifetime of thinking it is my work that blesses me and my understanding that blesses me it is kind of not natural to turn to Christ instead and trust fully in Him.

But I try.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

That's kind of a hard one, eh?

How does the Holy Spirit point to Christ in practical terms say to teach someone who knows nothing about the word but is starting to investigate? How would you teach that?

 

[DeighAnn]

Sort of. More Like I rest in Christ and He does the work.

The commandments are kept but its not by my work or my understanding.

Its by abiding in Christ and producing fruit. Entirely by faith and not my work.

How do you teach that?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Had a fast glance, sorry, big chore day, but are you referring to the non-universal theme;

Amo 3:2 KJV You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

If you read just the first line (of his quote), oops, actually his second paragraph:

"Observe, this would not run the source of the division [in the context being covered there] of people back to Shem, Ham and Japhet, so as to make the word to be equivalent to what we call the races of people, in connection with the Noahic earth, who constitute the whole human family. The subdivision here alluded to took place in the family of Isaac, type of the heir of promise, not earlier; and the heads of this subdivision are brought before us in Rom. 9 All God's ways and subdivisions are to be noted."

…hope that helps.

 

[DeighAnn]

If the root produces the fruit the branch would never need pruning or to be cut off, Would it?

 

[SimpleGardner]

How do you teach that?

If the root produces the fruit the branch would never need pruning or to be cut off, Would it?

Yes, that is what I was hoping to point out. But since there is a mention that the fruitless branches will be pruned, that is clearly proof that the efforts to produce fruit lies in the branch, IF it avails itself of the ROOT!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The Law of Life is forgiveness through the Blood of Christ

Here's more how I see "the law of the Spirit OF LIFE" (IN Christ Jesus)... not that it doesn't include "forgiveness," mind you...:

Hebrews 7 -

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. [endless - G179 - 'indestructible, indissoluble, permanent']

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.



[see also Gal2:20]

 

[Grandpa]

There is tons of scripture that tells us that is exactly what He did with the law.

Yes, I think the "bad parts = death and condemnation" were taken out. I believe it was not to turn away from Him but to more easily turn to Him. And you are the only one who works at the law.

The law isn't over. It never will be. It is different. As in no longer the same. I am not confused but clearly you are quite a bit confused. Do you know what Jesus accomplished as far as law goes?

What about the Lords ACTUAL words that say that NOT ONE JOT OR TITTLE shall fall from the law until ALL is fulfilled?

That doesn't sound like I will take out the bad parts but leave your favorites.

It sounds like it is all or nothing to me. Either it was completely fulfilled and completely over.

Or it was not fulfilled and is completely in force.

The Lord doesn't really let anyone go half way, does He?

 

[Grandpa]

I don't understand what part you didn't understand.

What does the branch have to do?

Doesn't seem like a difficult question. Which part is hard?

 

[Yahshua]

Ok it seems we agree on the first question. The second and third question we only partially agree and probably can be addressed together here.

We are still free to turn away from the Holy Spirits teaching and turn to our own works at the law, or whatever other imaginary things that a person thinks causes their obedience.

Ok we agree that the mind is the place of "thoughts & UNDERSTANDING".

And I assume we agree that the scriptures say the law will be written on the mind (and heart) per the covenant promise.

Again, we agreed that the mind = the place of thoughts & UNDERSTANDING.

And we agree that the Holy Spirit is a teacher not a controller of effort. He can't make people DO.

So I think you agree with me that the word "cause" in Ezekiel 36:27 doesn't mean "to make people do"?

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

That's kind of a hard one, eh?

Well..If we agree that the Holy Spirit teaches...

and we agree that the law is written in the mind (i.e. the place of UNDERSTANDING)...

...Then wouldn't one's "own understanding" be anything that the Holy Spirit has NOT taught and anything in the mind that does NOT include the law that was promised to be written therein?

 

[Grandpa]

Since our Justification it no longer condemns! Now the Law maintains civil order and lights the path of we who are saved by grace throughout our Sanctification journey! It is a lovely thing to those who are "in Christ" isn't it!

If that were true then how do you lose your salvation?

Something must be condemning you. Surely you don't think it is Christ Himself?


I was kind of hoping you would respond to this...

 

[DeighAnn]

What about the Lords ACTUAL words that say that NOT ONE JOT OR TITTLE shall fall from the law until ALL is fulfilled?

That doesn't sound like I will take out the bad parts but leave your favorites.

It sounds like it is all or nothing to me. Either it was completely fulfilled and completely over.

Or it was not fulfilled and is completely in force.

The Lord doesn't really let anyone go half way, does He?

THIS is a place we are told the law and the prophets THe old Covenant was only set up to last until Jesus came.
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

A second witness, Jesus came to obey the law perfectly and to fulfill all prophecy written about His coming.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

HERE is Jesus telling us how the old law has changed,
Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Matthew 5:22 BUT I say unto you, (This is Jesus giving us the law, this is the new covenant law that He will shed His blood for) That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

Matthew 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Matthew 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.





THIS is Jesus telling us what becomes of the law of Moses
Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[DeighAnn]

What does the branch have to do?

Doesn't seem like a difficult question. Which part is hard?

Produce fruit or get cut off. Like I said if the root is producing the fruit, it would never be fruitless. It would never need to be pruned, it would certainly not cut itself off.

 

[KJV1611]

When branches on a bush or plant are trimmed, new branches sprout out at the cut... if that helps.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

THIS is a place we are told the law and the prophets THe old Covenant was only set up to last until Jesus came.
[…]

In the same chapter I just quoted, the passage goes on to say:

"20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

22 By so much was Jesus made [or, 'has become'] a surety [/guarantee] of a better testament/covenant."



What do you believe the phrase "[Jesus] has become a surety of a better covenant" means (v.22)?

 

[SimpleGardner]

Produce fruit or get cut off. Like I said if the root is producing the fruit, it would never be fruitless. It would never need to be pruned, it would certainly not cut itself off.

Right, The vine/root supplies the vine what it needs;

Drink it in!:

Joh 15:1-11 KJV I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. (3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. (4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. (5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (7) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. (8) Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. (9) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. (10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (11) These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

 

[DeighAnn]

Right, The vine/root supplies the vine what it needs;

Drink it in!:

Joh 15:1-11 KJV I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. (3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. (4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. (5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (7) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. (8) Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. (9) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. (10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (11) These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

FYI, in the original language it does not say "men" gather, that is just in the KJV and a couple more. Just an interesting note it came up in a previous discussion but that was about losing salvation but anyway also of importance to take note of is the "tenses" of the verbs switch and it ends up having do with eternal life or lake of fire for the gathered withered branches.

 

[SimpleGardner]

FYI, in the original language it does not say "men" gather, that is just in the KJV and a couple more. Just an interesting note it came up in a previous discussion but that was about losing salvation but anyway also of importance to take note of is the "tenses" of the verbs switch and it ends up having do with eternal life or lake of fire for the gathered withered branches.

Amazing how much we need to press in to truly understand!

Thank You

 

[DeighAnn]

In the same chapter I just quoted, the passage goes on to say:

"20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

22 By so much was Jesus made [or, 'has become'] a surety [/guarantee] of a better testament/covenant."



What do you believe the phrase "[Jesus] has become a surety of a better covenant" means (v.22)?

I think that the Blood of Christ guarantees a better Covenant than the law of Moses because the "infinite" value of that blood along with the conscience willingness to take upon Himself for us our sins, giving us an assurance that when He says your sins are forgiven there is not doubt one that that is exactly what has happened. And when compared to the blood of an animal that could never make you clean is what is being spoken of here.

How about you? What do you think Christ as a surety of a better covenant means?

 

[DeighAnn]

If that were true then how do you lose your salvation?

Something must be condemning you. Surely you don't think it is Christ Himself?


I was kind of hoping you would respond to this...

You turn and walk away, You do not abide. You do not like it because you like the doctrine of man better or you are just evil or you become deceived.

 

[SimpleGardner]

You turn and walk away, You do not abide. You do not like it because you like the doctrine of man better or you are just evil or you become deceived.

Joh 15:1-2 KJV I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.