Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[Dan_473]

So Dan,

What exactly are you getting at? Are you looking for a list to keep, a list you can break, a list that requires no consideration? What? When it comes to what you should or shouldn't do, shouldn't you go directly to the source? If someone tells you do this and don't do that, will you comply? Will you keep the recommendations for "that day" for a "get out of judgement free" card? lol.

I still have yet to make sense of your incessant probing of peoples handling of legal matters in the Torah.

Are you compiling a list with details and names?

Are you preparing for an inquisition?

Please explain.

Thank You

Hi SimpleGardner!

Thanks for the great questions! I'll try to start with the easy ones first
No, I am not compiling a list with details and names.
No, I am not preparing for an Inquisition.

So, moving on...
I believe I have talked about several times what I am doing here, but it's no problem for me to talk about it some more... In fact I like having the opportunity!

Let's back up a bit and think about why any of us are here on the bible discussion forum. it doesn't take being here very long before you realize that there is a good chance that you will bump into a heated debate, or possibly become embroiled in a heated debate, possibly one where (unfortunately!) the works of the flesh are on display.

I can think of two main reasons why you we are all on here. One is that something inside of us, maybe it's God or maybe it's just us, is telling us that we have something to share, something that will benefit others. The second is that we have secret doubts, maybe that we won't talk about to ourselves, secret doubts that what we believe has issues, things that don't really fit right. And we want someone else, hopefully a gentle fellow believer, to help us work them out.

(I'm excluding in the above people who knowingly come on The forum with evil intent.)

It's like the verse from Proverbs that I talked about earlier, how iron sharpens iron. And it's great, as long as our flesh doesn't get in the way!

So about asking for lists. If someone asked me for a list of the ten commandments I could easily produce it. Or if someone asked me for a list of every scripture in the Torah that contains of the word levite, thanks to modern technology again I could easily produce it.

Sometimes someone will talk about dividing the law into ceremonial, civil, and moral categories. I don't think this can be done, but if the poster does think it can be done, well then, it makes sense to me to ask them to do it. If they respond with an evasive answer, rather than just producing the list, that to me is an indication that they have secret doubts. They actually want to be challenged. So, I often ask for more details or post follow-up questions.

But in the process of being challenged, and this is just human psychology, we can often become angry at the person that we were actually asking to challenge us, and begin to consider them our enemy.

Of course, all those things I talked about above assume that people are well aware that there are alternatives to talking about their beliefs in an open forum.

Did you see the post that I wrote here?
https://christianchat.com/threads/d...-to-keep-the-law-of-moses.185392/post-3992779
Were you aware there were alternatives to the open forum?

Have I answered all your questions? If not
Please please please
Ask for more details or ask a follow-up question or whatever!

 

[Marcelo]

Do you understand that the law of Moses was mainly about sacrificing animals for sins?


Why would Jesus tell the Church to sacrifice animals?

In His personal ministry the Lord Jesus taught obedience to the Law. After cleansing the leper He said:

"Don't tell anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them."

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Well then, I will return to an earlier question which gave rise to the current series.

Do you wear clothing of linen and wool mixed together?

I don't think that question is difficult to answer, I don't think it would require spiritual insight to answer or to understand the answer. Or am I wrong about that?

A small side point, linen will not irritate eczema but wool does terribly so mixing
these two is bad news.

 

[Dan_473]

Hey Dan,

Still looking for an answer from you.

Regarding the comment above; are you thinking either Peter or God was not being truthful? See verse below to put question in context:

Deu 30:11 NIV Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

Hi! Which answer are you still looking for from me? I go through the posts to me one by one in the order they are posted so I may not have gotten to it yet. but if I have responded to later posts and you don't feel I have answered something you asked me, please ask me again!

Yes, the people that Moses was talking to could have obeyed the letter of every single law that that Moses had written down. (They could not have obeyed the fuller sense of the law that Jesus talks about in The sermon on the Mount, but I think that's a different matter.)

In the wilderness, the Israelites had a tent of meeting and Levites. Today we don't have those things, so the letters of many of the laws are truly out of our reach.

Looking at Israel's history, we see that the bulk of Israelites did not even keep the letter of the law. Yes, there were some that were righteous, relative to their fellow Israelites.
But because the bulk of them rebelled, God sent them away into Babylon and took away their self-rule for thousands of years.

Because of how it all turned out, Peter describes the law, the letter of the law, as a burden that his fathers couldn't bear. Why put gentiles in the same situation?


Galatians 2: 14. But when I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all,
"If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do?

Is Paul talking about talmudic Jews? Well since the people that started the situation came from James, I hope that James wasn't a talmudic Jew or endorsing the talmud!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi! Which answer are you still looking for from me? I go through the posts to me one by one in the order they are posted so I may not have gotten to it yet. but if I have responded to later posts and you don't feel I have answered something you asked me, please ask me again!

Yes, the people that Moses was talking to could have obeyed the letter of every single law that that Moses had written down. (They could not have obeyed the fuller sense of the law that Jesus talks about in The sermon on the Mount, but I think that's a different matter.)

In the wilderness, the Israelites had a tent of meeting and Levites. Today we don't have those things, so the letters of many of the laws are truly out of our reach.

Looking at Israel's history, we see that the bulk of Israelites did not even keep the letter of the law. Yes, there were some that were righteous, relative to their fellow Israelites.
But because the bulk of them rebelled, God sent them away into Babylon and took away their self-rule for thousands of years.

Because of how it all turned out, Peter describes the law, the letter of the law, as a burden that his fathers couldn't bear. Why put gentiles in the same situation?


Galatians 2: 14. But when I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all,
"If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do?

Is Paul talking about talmudic Jews? Well since the people that started the situation came from James, I hope that James wasn't a talmudic Jew or endorsing the talmud!

Do you really think they could obey every word?

Even the first command? Just asking bro not trying to be argumentative

 

[SimpleGardner]

Thats your problem - I am exalted above you, you have a problem I do not
We serve and obey in the spirit of CHRIST. - I have the spiritual high ground
You chastise from your misinterpretation of the law. - I cannot be corrected in my behaviour
The law condemns you where you stand, And you can;t see it. Because you do not understand the law.
You are condemned to judgement today and are not in Christ at all.

I must say these immortals have such a clear voice, I wonder why I cannot hear it?
Maybe because this is not what Jesus is saying at all.

Theirs is a position that requires justification with other men this is why you cannot reason with them. You cannot justify them so they must persist. We cannot offer them any justification for anything.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Do you really think they could obey every word?
Even the first command? Just asking bro not trying to be argumentative

4 If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more:
5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;
6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
Phil 3

Paul obeyed the law faultlessly. Now if it is impossible to obey, why did Paul say he succeeded.
Paul is saying this is not enough. You need to know God, to commune with Him to know His
righteousness by faith not just be obedience to the law.

 

[Dan_473]

Ahhh! I see what's going on with you and your ilk now!
Upholding powers and principalties of darkness, with spiritual wickedness in high places, used as a battering ram!
You cannot gain access to the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light, can you? Because you have been duped into believing and teaching that THIS is Jesus/God! Granting you FULL ACCESS in THIS Kingdom!
2 Thessalonians 2
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above ALL that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he AS God sitteth in the temple of God, SHEWING HIMSELF that he IS God.

Not heeding the warning that Paul gave unto Timothy! But rather, FALLING HEADLONG into ungodliness, with your vain and profane babblings!

So much so, that? God Himself, has given you over to a reprobate (UNACCEPTABLE) mind, and given you strong delusion, that you would BELIEVE a LIE!

As long as you continue, in delusion? Tis pointless, in casting pearls to swine!

This is what "eyes of men" "see!"
John 3
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the SECOND TIME into his mother's womb, and be born?

Seeing? Yet not perceiving! Hearing? Yet not understanding!

The question I asked was very simple, just like a salesman asking you what size shirt you wear.

I am already in the kingdom of light, thanks be to God!

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Boy they do not like being called an upgraded spirit.
But why are these immortals so shy to talk about who they really are?

17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Tim 1

Now if Paul thought we were now the same as God, immortal, do you not think he might have mentioned
it or even suggested that he could never fail.

1 Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also.
2 I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.
Gal 2

Paul a believer for 14 years goes to Jerusalem because he wants to be sure he has not failed to
keep to the gospel in case he had run his race in vain.

No immortality here on the touch of God on his life. And boy did Paul get touched by God.
He knew the seal of the Holy Spirit and its power, yet he still did not feel immortal or perfect.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Theirs is a position that requires justification with other men this is why you cannot reason with them. You cannot justify them so they must persist. We cannot offer them any justification for anything.

You will never be able to reason with anyone when you play the games certain people play.


I think sometimes you all forget this is a discussion forum/ You seem to want to only discuss your faith and your belief, and never want to discuss or learn what others believe.

When you do this, You get what you put out.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The question I asked was very simple, just like a salesman asking you what size shirt you wear.

I am already in the kingdom of light, thanks be to God!

Amen bro..

We are already there. Of course just saying this offends some people

 

[Dan_473]

A small side point, linen will not irritate eczema but wool does terribly so mixing
these two is bad news.

That would make a lot of sense. Wasn't the standard dress a linen garment next to your skin and wool outer garment? I thought I read that somewhere.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

EG response - You would do best to back off and stop responding to me or about me.. do this, and I will leave you alone again, Keep up wiht your games, and I will continue to expose who you really are..

Now EG has me on ignore. This immortal is not so immortal or even able to hold his position.
Come to faith, get an eternal spirit upgrade that means you can never be condemned or sent to hell.

A heavenly upgraded spirit, made immortal. There was a group of immortals who said they were
the super apostles sent to rule for the 1,000 year rule of Jesus. Only problem was they flew into a mountain,
so no apostles and no 1,000 year rule.

But imagine you actually believed you were now immortal. Would you not want to show this from scripture
and call everyone to join you, especially if it is so simple. Except maybe it is just a part of faith, hidden away,
like a secret consequence of everything else, except just not mentioned anywhere. Opps.
The key physical and spiritual reality of human existence not mentioned in scripture.

Maybe therefore it is simply not true then.

 

[Dan_473]

Do you really think they could obey every word?

Even the first command? Just asking bro not trying to be argumentative

Good question!

I know that the scripture say that there was none good, not one. I think that Paul describes himself in his former life as
According to the law, blameless.

Could a person, in theory, at least attempt to keep the letter of every single one of The commandments back then? Possibly, but it will have to remain just a theoretical question because no human ever did it of the millions who tried. Jesus did keep the letter of course, as well as the spiritual side.

Jesus comes along and says the law is so much more then you thought it was even if you were really trying to keep the letter... but good news, I'm here!

Today, if I find a spot of mold on my clothes, there is no levite for me to show it to and make a decision about what to do.

So I ask myself, what does it mean if God tells one group of people thousands of years ago that the law is within their reach, but then today makes the law out of reach?

 

[Karraster]

EG response - You would do best to back off and stop responding to me or about me.. do this, and I will leave you alone again, Keep up wiht your games, and I will continue to expose who you really are..

Now EG has me on ignore. This immortal is not so immortal or even able to hold his position.
Come to faith, get an eternal spirit upgrade that means you can never be condemned or sent to hell.

A heavenly upgraded spirit, made immortal. There was a group of immortals who said they were
the super apostles sent to rule for the 1,000 year rule of Jesus. Only problem was they flew into a mountain,
so no apostles and no 1,000 year rule.

But imagine you actually believed you were now immortal. Would you not want to show this from scripture
and call everyone to join you, especially if it is so simple. Except maybe it is just a part of faith, hidden away,
like a secret consequence of everything else, except just not mentioned anywhere. Opps.
The key physical and spiritual reality of human existence not mentioned in scripture.

Maybe therefore it is simply not true then.

It's quite the fashion nowadays, to believe we are little gods/ immortal. It's what makes the ultra wealthy preachers, they promise everything satan does, say some magic words and you're in like flint.

 

[SimpleGardner]

Hi! Which answer are you still looking for from me? I go through the posts to me one by one in the order they are posted so I may not have gotten to it yet. but if I have responded to later posts and you don't feel I have answered something you asked me, please ask me again!

Yes, the people that Moses was talking to could have obeyed the letter of every single law that that Moses had written down. (They could not have obeyed the fuller sense of the law that Jesus talks about in The sermon on the Mount, but I think that's a different matter.)

In the wilderness, the Israelites had a tent of meeting and Levites. Today we don't have those things, so the letters of many of the laws are truly out of our reach.

Looking at Israel's history, we see that the bulk of Israelites did not even keep the letter of the law. Yes, there were some that were righteous, relative to their fellow Israelites.
But because the bulk of them rebelled, God sent them away into Babylon and took away their self-rule for thousands of years.

Because of how it all turned out, Peter describes the law, the letter of the law, as a burden that his fathers couldn't bear. Why put gentiles in the same situation?


Galatians 2: 14. But when I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all,
"If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do?

Is Paul talking about talmudic Jews? Well since the people that started the situation came from James, I hope that James wasn't a talmudic Jew or endorsing the talmud!

Hey Dan, It looks like you sent me a reply to the questions about an hour ago. Thanks I will study over your reply and reply from that post.

To your comment that the bulk of Israel did not ever keep the letter of the Law, sounds like a safe guess. Not sure of actual percentages, but Nationally speaking the National civil government and possibly some of the priesthood were not representing the people if the people were in fact obedient to the Torah.

You will never be able to reason with anyone when you play the games certain people play.


I think sometimes you all forget this is a discussion forum/ You seem to want to only discuss your faith and your belief, and never want to discuss or learn what others believe.

When you do this, You get what you put out.

Okay, let me ask you some thing about your beliefs;

1. Do you believe Jesus was completely Human like you and I and was subject to all the lusts and temptations you and I are?

2. Do you believe the Book of Revelations is an legitimate book that is inspired by the Holy Spirit?

3. Do you believe the book of James is an Inspired book of the Bible, that is that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit?

4. Do you believe that the following verse, quoting God accurately depicts that the Laws God gave the Israelites are fully within their ability to obey?;

Deu 30:11 NIV Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good question!

I know that the scripture say that there was none good, not one. I think that Paul describes himself in his former life as
According to the law, blameless.

Could a person, in theory, at least attempt to keep the letter of every single one of The commandments back then? Possibly, but it will have to remain just a theoretical question because no human ever did it of the millions who tried. Jesus did keep the letter of course, as well as the spiritual side.

Jesus comes along and says the law is so much more then you thought it was even if you were really trying to keep the letter... but good news, I'm here!

Today, if I find a spot of mold on my clothes, there is no levite for me to show it to and make a decision about what to do.

So I ask myself, what does it mean if God tells one group of people thousands of years ago that the law is within their reach, but then today makes the law out of reach?

I don’t think he made it in reach I think he picked ten knowing we could not keep them

Remember the person who said he kept the law since birth and Jesus said sell all you have. He was trying to show the person he did not keep the law but the person was rich and did not see what Jesus was really trying to do, which was show him he had not followed the law he was in disobedience to the first command at the very least (loved money more than god)

Sadly I think so many think because they don’t covet Don’t murder or commit sexual sin don’t do drugs etc etc think to themselves, well they are good people and they are following the law.

Unfortunately. Like I am sure you know. When we come to Christ. We realize how wrong this thinking is. We can not even keep the 1st command 24 7. Let alone the rest , like Jesus showed in the sermon on the mount

Which should bring us all to Christ in humility. Realizing the law condemns. And we are law breakers not law keepers. Only Christ kept the law

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's quite the fashion nowadays, to believe we are little gods/ immortal. It's what makes the ultra wealthy preachers, they promise everything satan does, say some magic words and you're in like flint.

Not sure which is worse. People who think this. Or people who thing they are good little law keepers who act like Christians but do not even know what a Christian is

 

[NayborBear]

@Dan_473 (you said)
"Sometimes someone will talk about dividing the law into ceremonial, civil, and moral categories. I don't think this can be done, but if the poster does think it can be done, well then, it makes sense to me to ask them to do it. If they respond with an evasive answer, rather than just producing the list, that to me is an indication that they have secret doubts. They actually want to be challenged. So, I often ask for more details or post follow-up questions."

I can tell you the "yoke of bondage", pertaining to "the Mosaic Agreements", as it had become SUPERCEDED, via traditions of man, aka talmud, is what Jesus, and His Disciples, and Apostles were referring to, in just about all of their teachings through the entire N.T.
I can't however, make, nor FORCE you to to accept, nor believe me!

I can tell you that the Father speaking through Christ? That He WAS, BEFORE Abraham, and that the Father through Christ, was actually pleading with the pharasee's that the WHOLE of the O.T. was about Him? That, He would SEND "A SAVIOR", that would MAKE A MOCKERY, of "the agreement" aka "talmud?" That this "Savior" would die a very cruel and humiliating death upon the cross! Being of such obedience, this Savior, became WORTHY of God calling Him His only begotten. And WORTHY of sitting at the Father's right hand side. And God, "not thinking it ROBBERY", for Christ to even be called God. As He sits at the Father's right hand, waiting for the Father to "make His enemies as a footstool?" Before the Father even ALLOWS the Son to RETURN?

I can testify of all these things, and more, which are "Spiritually Discerned."

I can testify there is more then meets the eyes of man, concerning "being born from above", and "Spiritual incarceration", where one is "bound in spiritual prison, till every farthing is paid. Not to mention, as to WHOM these farthings are paid TO? As Paul was trying to teach, concerning "spiritual sacrifice/s!" Being "Crucified WITH Christ?"

I can relate, as to how, in one's "pleading" with another in explaining, is like the "giving up of oil" to a foolish virgin, decreases one's OWN oil?
Not, that the oil CAN'T BE REPLENISHED! But, "spiritual incarceration" is the "result" of one's "reckless" behavior, whilst awaiting the Bridegroom.

I can testify that there IS difference between the Mosaic agreement, and the talmud. And, the "list" for one's "paying every farthing back", is different for me, as it is different for you, as it is different for everyone, as everyone, "falls SHORT", in various ways, and depths.

I can also testify, that there are "some" things, that when told to young ears, and eyes, that more times then not, cause more HARM then good. To that particular individual.

You keep asking me! You are asking the WRONG one!

Ask Him, who SENT His Savior!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, let me ask you some thing about your beliefs;

1. Do you believe Jesus was completely Human like you and I and was subject to all the lusts and temptations you and I are?[\quote]

Well since you never answer I wonder why I should but to show I am not afraid here goes

Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are yet without sin so the answer is yes

2. Do you believe the Book of Revelations is an legitimate book that is inspired by the Holy Spirit?

?? Me thinks you are fishing but yes

3. Do you believe the book of James is an Inspired book of the Bible, that is that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Yes

4. Do you believe that the following verse, quoting God accurately depicts that the Laws God gave the Israelites are fully within their ability to obey?;

Deu 30:11 NIV Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

I believe this. This is a command given to Israel after they have been returned from exile because she was punished that this command he is speaking about is not that they obey the whole law but one command. That they live a life where they are obeying his commands and living for him

I do not believe this is hard for any of us. But that is different that fulfilling the law. Which as I have proven requires perfection


Now that I have answered yours

Can you answer mine

The law requires death for an unintentional sin

Why did It require death?