WORKS SALVATION?

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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,668
6,857
113
#1
To be clear, i fully believe that all new Christians should, if at all possible, be water baptized. Simply because Christ Himself told us to be water baptized. I also believe, and am convinced that water baptism IS NOT the one baptism spoken of in Scripture, and IS NOT necessary for salvation.

Why?

Christ gave us the example when He was water baptized by John. This example was for a specific reason. That reason being that the "one baptism" that is the baptism unto salvation is the baptism of the Holy Spirit when the precious blood of Christ is applied to our hearts, and cleanses us of all our sins. This baptism unto salvation can not be seen with the human eye, and, thus, neither the Church, nor the world can see that a person has become a believer in and disciple of Jesus Christ.

Water baptism serves as the "witness" for the new believer that they have become a believer in and disciple of Christ. The Church and the world can see for themselves that the new believer has given their life to Christ through their baptism in water.

Now, if toes are stepped on, well, maybe they need to be, but water baptism can not be the baptism unto salvation, for water baptism is a work! There is no other way to describe/define water baptism than a work, and no work by man is worthy enough to gain salvation/eternal life!

The act of water baptism requires, at a minimum, two people to complete. The baptisor, and the baptisee. In some instances, and not trying to be funny, it may require more than two people. Depending on the physical size of the baptisee, more than one baptisor may be required to complete the act safely. We have a wonderful Christian in our church that is well north of 300 pounds. And when they were baptized, it took three persons to safely immerse that person and lift them up again safely.

Every example in Scripture speaking of water baptism speaks of two people being involved! Any act that requires two people to accomplish can ONLY be defined as a work. Now, to be sure, water baptism is a GOOD work, but a work non-the-less.

Any person, church group that teaches water baptism is required for salvation is teaching "works salvation." There is no other way to define their teaching! Now, if this is what they believe, that's fine with me, but they have to admit what they are teaching, and not pretend they don't teach "works salvation."

I see some here who are all about Grace salvation (and why not?), yet they still teach water baptism necessary for salvation! Can't have it both ways. Either we are saved by grace through faith, AND THAT A GIFT FROM GOD, and not by works........OR works can save us.........

Water baptism is a work! That is Biblical Truth. That is simple truth!

It's ok to speak of Acts 2:38, but if one is truthful, they should also include:

Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Water baptism is a good work. I, and others, believe it is the first act of obedience for a new believer. Being water baptized because Christ told us to be!

The precious blood of Jesus Christ is what saves us, cleanses us, and makes us worthy to be called children of God and heirs to the Promise! This occurs with the baptism of the Holy Spirit!

Water baptism is important! It IS NOT necessary for salvation!
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,693
7,176
113
#2
I cherish when we acknowledge the importance of the effectual works of Him paid forward.

I take comfort knowing that though even if I do not work, my faith is counted as righteousness. I also take comfort in His work and hope to be a vessel of hope for others in application of my faith, knowing it, through Him, produces more faith. What a Glorious Gift of God to get to be a part of His plan.

I know this may have nothing to do with your OP, just what came to mind.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
#3
Theology and practice.

We may wonder the significance of various practices but it does not invalidate them or validate them
if we have one interpretation or the other about its significance.

So if we agree we need to be baptised to confirm our faith in Jesus, then Amen.
If someone wants to pin an extra essential implication on to baptism, does this matter?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,668
6,857
113
#4
Theology and practice.

We may wonder the significance of various practices but it does not invalidate them or validate them
if we have one interpretation or the other about its significance.

So if we agree we need to be baptised to confirm our faith in Jesus, then Amen.
If someone wants to pin an extra essential implication on to baptism, does this matter?
Water baptism does not "confirm" our faith in Christ. It is a "witness" to the Church and the world that we have become believers in and disciples of Christ.

What matters is when this act is taught to be required for salvation! False teachings matter.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,724
10,531
113
78
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#5
Water baptism does not "confirm" our faith in Christ. It is a "witness" to the Church and the world that we have become believers in and disciples of Christ.

What matters is when this act is taught to be required for salvation! False teachings matter.
I agree God can save us with just the baptism of giving us the Holy Spirit. That is truly what confirms our salvation. I am glad you feel one should seek water baptism and I would urge others in the same direction. If one becomes saved lying in a hospital bed with no immediate chance to get better, water baptism is not possible. That is just an example, there could be many other cases similar.

If a man chooses not to be baptized in water just because it is not necessary, I would doubt the spirit leading him. Why? Because everyone that I fellowship with has been led by the Spirit toward baptism. When I try to fellowship with that first group, I see many differences. :cool:
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#6
To be clear, i fully believe that all new Christians should, if at all possible, be water baptized. Simply because Christ Himself told us to be water baptized. I also believe, and am convinced that water baptism IS NOT the one baptism spoken of in Scripture, and IS NOT necessary for salvation.

Why?

Christ gave us the example when He was water baptized by John. This example was for a specific reason. That reason being that the "one baptism" that is the baptism unto salvation is the baptism of the Holy Spirit when the precious blood of Christ is applied to our hearts, and cleanses us of all our sins. This baptism unto salvation can not be seen with the human eye, and, thus, neither the Church, nor the world can see that a person has become a believer in and disciple of Jesus Christ.

Water baptism serves as the "witness" for the new believer that they have become a believer in and disciple of Christ. The Church and the world can see for themselves that the new believer has given their life to Christ through their baptism in water.

Now, if toes are stepped on, well, maybe they need to be, but water baptism can not be the baptism unto salvation, for water baptism is a work! There is no other way to describe/define water baptism than a work, and no work by man is worthy enough to gain salvation/eternal life!

The act of water baptism requires, at a minimum, two people to complete. The baptisor, and the baptisee. In some instances, and not trying to be funny, it may require more than two people. Depending on the physical size of the baptisee, more than one baptisor may be required to complete the act safely. We have a wonderful Christian in our church that is well north of 300 pounds. And when they were baptized, it took three persons to safely immerse that person and lift them up again safely.

Every example in Scripture speaking of water baptism speaks of two people being involved! Any act that requires two people to accomplish can ONLY be defined as a work. Now, to be sure, water baptism is a GOOD work, but a work non-the-less.

Any person, church group that teaches water baptism is required for salvation is teaching "works salvation." There is no other way to define their teaching! Now, if this is what they believe, that's fine with me, but they have to admit what they are teaching, and not pretend they don't teach "works salvation."

I see some here who are all about Grace salvation (and why not?), yet they still teach water baptism necessary for salvation! Can't have it both ways. Either we are saved by grace through faith, AND THAT A GIFT FROM GOD, and not by works........OR works can save us.........

Water baptism is a work! That is Biblical Truth. That is simple truth!

It's ok to speak of Acts 2:38, but if one is truthful, they should also include:

Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Water baptism is a good work. I, and others, believe it is the first act of obedience for a new believer. Being water baptized because Christ told us to be!

The precious blood of Jesus Christ is what saves us, cleanses us, and makes us worthy to be called children of God and heirs to the Promise! This occurs with the baptism of the Holy Spirit!

Water baptism is important! It IS NOT necessary for salvation!

I agree!
I do not "keep the law" in attempts to become saved, or maintain salvation!
I keep God's laws, as a result of my being saved!
Going onto the Father as Christ confesses one before Him? Unfortunately? Seen as works for, and or the maintaining of one's salvation, when in actuality? It is spiritually sacrificing, and the investing of "talents" given. As in the "parable of the talents."
Whereas, instead of desperately holding onto "love covering a multitude of sin?" Thusly, reconciling oneself to that which happens after one leaves this flesh body, and "sleeps" with one's fathers.
One starts asking oneself? MULTITUDE? Does not mean EVERY! Does it?
For those "content" with that?

God BLESS ya!
But, don't discourage, or try and "limit" those who are sacrificing spiritually, and investing their talents, those who ARE seeking answers to that question!
Because it is NOT wrong!
And? I'm NOT going BACK to Egypt!
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,724
10,531
113
78
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#7
I agree!
I do not "keep the law" in attempts to become saved, or maintain salvation!
I keep God's laws, as a result of my being saved!
Going onto the Father as Christ confesses one before Him? Unfortunately? Seen as works for, and or the maintaining of one's salvation, when in actuality? It is spiritually sacrificing, and the investing of "talents" given. As in the "parable of the talents."
Whereas, instead of desperately holding onto "love covering a multitude of sin?" Thusly, reconciling oneself to that which happens after one leaves this flesh body, and "sleeps" with one's fathers.
One starts asking oneself? MULTITUDE? Does not mean EVERY! Does it?
For those "content" with that?
God BLESS ya!
But, don't discourage, or try and "limit" those who are sacrificing spiritually, and investing their talents, those who ARE seeking answers to that question!
Because it is NOT wrong!
And? I'm NOT going BACK to Egypt!
You and I both know NayborBear that some will call you a Judaizer and trying to be justified by keeping any part of God's law. Never mind all the positive references in scripture that supports you. :rolleyes:
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#8
You and I both know NayborBear that some will call you a Judaizer and trying to be justified by keeping any part of God's law. Never mind all the positive references in scripture that supports you. :rolleyes:
I know man! I know!
All I can do is continue, in the hopes that the testimonings I "hunt n peck" :)p) out will somehow give cause for others that may see these words, to not become dismayed, nor dissuaded, in their "pursuits!"
 

Victor1999

Active member
Jul 8, 2019
102
89
28
25
#9
I am still in need of baptism and I haven't found any Christians yet
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
#10
Water baptism (immersion) is the 1st act of obedience, it is a picture a painting that OUTWARDLY TESTIFIES to the world of what has taken place INWARDLY BY FAITH....IT is the N.T. Identifier that one has died with Christ, been buried with Christ and raised with Christ as a NEW CREATION in Christ Jesus.....it is the N.T. version of Circumcision.....both were/are identifiers (Now only immersion) and as Elephant man stated.....it is a work of righteousness and JESUS WAS BORN THE SON OF GKD BY THE SPIRIT SOME 30 YEARS BEFORE HE WAS IMMERSED BY JOHN!!!!!

It does not save, help get saved, maintain salvation, top off salvation but is an answer of a good conscience toward God!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#11
I am still in need of baptism and I haven't found any Christians yet
Have you been wandering around in the Rub al Khali or what? No Christians and no water for baptism!

'The Rub' al Khali desert is the largest contiguous sand desert in the world, encompassing most of the southern third of the Arabian Peninsula. The desert covers some including parts of Saudi Arabia, Oman, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. It is part of the larger Arabian Desert."
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,668
6,857
113
#12
I am still in need of baptism and I haven't found any Christians yet
Is that because of where you live? Or, are you saying that those who profess to be Christians living near you, do not measure up to your idea of what a Christian is?
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#13
To be clear, i fully believe that all new Christians should, if at all possible, be water baptized. Simply because Christ Himself told us to be water baptized. I also believe, and am convinced that water baptism IS NOT the one baptism spoken of in Scripture, and IS NOT necessary for salvation.

Why?

Christ gave us the example when He was water baptized by John. This example was for a specific reason. That reason being that the "one baptism" that is the baptism unto salvation is the baptism of the Holy Spirit when the precious blood of Christ is applied to our hearts, and cleanses us of all our sins. This baptism unto salvation can not be seen with the human eye, and, thus, neither the Church, nor the world can see that a person has become a believer in and disciple of Jesus Christ.

Water baptism serves as the "witness" for the new believer that they have become a believer in and disciple of Christ. The Church and the world can see for themselves that the new believer has given their life to Christ through their baptism in water.

Now, if toes are stepped on, well, maybe they need to be, but water baptism can not be the baptism unto salvation, for water baptism is a work! There is no other way to describe/define water baptism than a work, and no work by man is worthy enough to gain salvation/eternal life!

The act of water baptism requires, at a minimum, two people to complete. The baptisor, and the baptisee. In some instances, and not trying to be funny, it may require more than two people. Depending on the physical size of the baptisee, more than one baptisor may be required to complete the act safely. We have a wonderful Christian in our church that is well north of 300 pounds. And when they were baptized, it took three persons to safely immerse that person and lift them up again safely.

Every example in Scripture speaking of water baptism speaks of two people being involved! Any act that requires two people to accomplish can ONLY be defined as a work. Now, to be sure, water baptism is a GOOD work, but a work non-the-less.

Any person, church group that teaches water baptism is required for salvation is teaching "works salvation." There is no other way to define their teaching! Now, if this is what they believe, that's fine with me, but they have to admit what they are teaching, and not pretend they don't teach "works salvation."

I see some here who are all about Grace salvation (and why not?), yet they still teach water baptism necessary for salvation! Can't have it both ways. Either we are saved by grace through faith, AND THAT A GIFT FROM GOD, and not by works........OR works can save us.........

Water baptism is a work! That is Biblical Truth. That is simple truth!

It's ok to speak of Acts 2:38, but if one is truthful, they should also include:

Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Water baptism is a good work. I, and others, believe it is the first act of obedience for a new believer. Being water baptized because Christ told us to be!

The precious blood of Jesus Christ is what saves us, cleanses us, and makes us worthy to be called children of God and heirs to the Promise! This occurs with the baptism of the Holy Spirit!

Water baptism is important! It IS NOT necessary for salvation!
If you feel that you should get water baptized because you think Jesus commanded it, even though it was clear to me that Jesus was only commanding the Jews since Gentiles was not included in the salvation plan during the Gospels, feel free to do so.

The only problem I see in having that thinking is that, quite a number of old church folks on their death beds, when you ask them what makes them confident about being saved, quite a number will reply to you, "Because I have been water baptized!"

That is kinda scary if you ask me.
 

Victor1999

Active member
Jul 8, 2019
102
89
28
25
#14
Is that because of where you live? Or, are you saying that those who profess to be Christians living near you, do not measure up to your idea of what a Christian is?
Nobody even professes to be a Christian here, haven't met someone like that yet. Maybe tourists, but that's rare.
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
3,270
1,269
113
Usa
#16
Nobody even professes to be a Christian here, haven't met someone like that yet. Maybe tourists, but that's rare.
Praying that the Lord will send you that contact you are in need of! He will supply our needs even when it seems impossible!🙏🙏🙏
 

Nat2019

Active member
Jul 14, 2019
890
237
43
#17
To be clear, i fully believe that all new Christians should, if at all possible, be water baptized. Simply because Christ Himself told us to be water baptized. I also believe, and am convinced that water baptism IS NOT the one baptism spoken of in Scripture, and IS NOT necessary for salvation.

Why?

Christ gave us the example when He was water baptized by John. This example was for a specific reason. That reason being that the "one baptism" that is the baptism unto salvation is the baptism of the Holy Spirit when the precious blood of Christ is applied to our hearts, and cleanses us of all our sins. This baptism unto salvation can not be seen with the human eye, and, thus, neither the Church, nor the world can see that a person has become a believer in and disciple of Jesus Christ.

Water baptism serves as the "witness" for the new believer that they have become a believer in and disciple of Christ. The Church and the world can see for themselves that the new believer has given their life to Christ through their baptism in water.

Now, if toes are stepped on, well, maybe they need to be, but water baptism can not be the baptism unto salvation, for water baptism is a work! There is no other way to describe/define water baptism than a work, and no work by man is worthy enough to gain salvation/eternal life!

The act of water baptism requires, at a minimum, two people to complete. The baptisor, and the baptisee. In some instances, and not trying to be funny, it may require more than two people. Depending on the physical size of the baptisee, more than one baptisor may be required to complete the act safely. We have a wonderful Christian in our church that is well north of 300 pounds. And when they were baptized, it took three persons to safely immerse that person and lift them up again safely.

Every example in Scripture speaking of water baptism speaks of two people being involved! Any act that requires two people to accomplish can ONLY be defined as a work. Now, to be sure, water baptism is a GOOD work, but a work non-the-less.

Any person, church group that teaches water baptism is required for salvation is teaching "works salvation." There is no other way to define their teaching! Now, if this is what they believe, that's fine with me, but they have to admit what they are teaching, and not pretend they don't teach "works salvation."

I see some here who are all about Grace salvation (and why not?), yet they still teach water baptism necessary for salvation! Can't have it both ways. Either we are saved by grace through faith, AND THAT A GIFT FROM GOD, and not by works........OR works can save us.........

Water baptism is a work! That is Biblical Truth. That is simple truth!

It's ok to speak of Acts 2:38, but if one is truthful, they should also include:

Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Water baptism is a good work. I, and others, believe it is the first act of obedience for a new believer. Being water baptized because Christ told us to be!

The precious blood of Jesus Christ is what saves us, cleanses us, and makes us worthy to be called children of God and heirs to the Promise! This occurs with the baptism of the Holy Spirit!

Water baptism is important! It IS NOT necessary for salvation!
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the (Spirit), he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the (Holy Spirit and fire).

1 Peter 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,