Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

Nat2019 · Jul 20, 2019

Nat2019 said:

IS THIS AN EXPLANATION about the bible from OSAS doctrine- This is a private interpretation of the scriptures.c

(Bible Hub).

The Lord persuades the yielded believer to be confident in His preferred-will (Gal 5:10; 2 Tim 1:12).3982 (peíthō) involves "obedience, but it is properly the result of (God's) persuasion" (WS, 422)."

Guojing · Jul 20, 2019

Nat2019 said:

That is always the problem when people just reply to posts with a bible verse, but made no attempt to explain how it connects to the topic. They expect people to be mind readers.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 20, 2019

Nat2019 said:

I'm not sure, why, when you quoted my post here, that you left off the part about this word being in the "passive" in Acts 17:4... but it is, and means to be persuaded (of what is trustworthy).

If you disagree that this is what the "passive" form means (as shown in this verse), please explain why:

____________

The portion you quoted above (at top) simply is applicable "to the believer" (one who is already saved).

Noose · Jul 20, 2019

mailmandan said:

I had already previously mentioned that love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary throughout eternity, love will still be the governing principle that controls everything that God and his redeemed people/saints are and do. We will not need faith and hope throughout eternity in our glorified bodies in the presence of the Lord. Faith IN CHRIST alone saves (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9)

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10). We are not saved by faith + love/works.

In James 2:17-20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!

1 John 2:3-4 seperates the genuine believers from the make believers/says I know Him but... You continue to confuse the root of salvation (FAITH) with the fruit of salvation (WORKS) and the end result is salvation by works.

After a superficial reading of the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46) "on the surface" these verses seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works, yet all scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are merely the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because the righteousness of God has been imputed to them (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9).

When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works that are a manifestation of faith in Christ, by which one receives eternal life.

*Notice how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. Doing good deeds is the result of and not the cause of being righteous. You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.

With all this, what you actually mean is that yes, good deeds must be performed for salvation and that people must practice righteousness?! I agree. But you seem to moving back and forth trying to converge two different things to mean faith alone- it wont work.

Quoting one of the verses you posted to support faith alone:

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

The good works in Christ are counted as faith. Doing means doing, not sitting there and trusting or believing in Christ.

Lafftur · Jul 20, 2019

Guojing said:

God rejects the wisdom of man.

Abraham wasn't "trusting" he was "knowing." Abraham "knew" God was faithful to His promises because Abraham had received Faith from God. He had received the "evidence" from the Heavenly Realm that what God had said and promised was undeniably true.

We are to live by Faith. Our knowledge that we live by comes from our Father in the Heavenly Realm, it gets imparted into our hearts and our heart tells our brain/mind to store it as TRUTH. Then, we live accordingly. We live by faith.

The flesh lives by the brain/mind and runs around in the "circle" of human reasoning - lost and confused.

Guojing · Jul 20, 2019

Lafftur said:

You seem to have this idea that God has this strict standard on how Man is to approach him in faith. I think you are making faith so technical here.

For me, I like the parable of the prodigal Son. Have you realized that he actually decided to go back to his Father for the "wrong motive"?

If you read the parable properly, his motivation to return was not because he loved his Father and missed him, but he just want to eat like the hired servants do.

Yet, we know what happened, the Father did not allow him to finish his explanation and just hugged him and love him. The point I learn from that is that God accepts the lost who is willing to take the first baby step to return to him, even if the motivation is only like 1% pure.

TheDivineWatermark · Jul 20, 2019

...so regarding "believers," here is how that word is used (as referred to in that quote from BibleHub, you pulled out for particular attention):

"G3982 [perfect indicative active]" - Gal5:10 -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/galatians/5-10.htm

"G3982 [perfect indicative middle or passive] - 2Tim1:12 -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_timothy/1-12.htm

Show me how it isn't being used in the way BibleHub said (per the quote).

Lafftur · Jul 20, 2019

Nat2019 said:

Oh Nat, nothing you're saying is right. You're trying to understand something spiritual - the new birth, new creation with your carnal natural mind.

If you seek God diligently with all your heart, you will find Him. Do that first.

Lafftur · Jul 20, 2019

Guojing said:

You seem to have this idea that God has this strict standard on how Man is to approach him in faith. I think you are making faith so technical here.

For me, I like the parable of the prodigal Son. Have you realized that he actually decided to go back to his Father for the "wrong motive"?

If you read the parable properly, his motivation to return was not because he loved his Father and missed him, but he just want to eat like the hired servants do.

Yet, we know what happened, the Father did not allow him to finish his explanation and just hugged him and love him. The point I learn from that is that God accepts the lost who is willing to take the first baby step to return to him, even if the motivation is only like 1% pure.

No, Guojing. The prodigal son had the "RIGHT motive" - humility. He was no longer prideful and he "knew" his Father would welcome him back.

Margo74 · Jul 20, 2019

Nat2019 said:

So if someone is accursed, they are only removed from the congregation.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13New International Version (NIV)
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associatewith sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the (wicked person) from among you.”[b]

*It says here if a person continues sinning, they are labeled "wicked", and should be expelled.

Proverbs 15:29
The Lord is far from (the wicked), but he hears the prayer of the righteous.

Psalm 11:6
Let him rain coals on (the wicked); fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; (whoever does not obey) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Romans 2:5
But (because of your hard and impenitent heart) you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

Hebrews 10:26-31
For

(if we go on sinning deliberately)

after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” ...

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the

(works of the flesh)

are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that

(those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God).

Luke 12:5
But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the

(sons of disobedience).

thanks for all these passages .. I have some of them, but not all .. they may be removed from the congregation for being accursed but unless they repent, they will be removed from eternal salvation as well

Guojing · Jul 20, 2019

Lafftur said:

Always interesting how different churches teach the same parable differently

16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

Avoid reading into the Bible here, and just ask yourself, "What was his main motivation for returning to the Father"

Was there any indication in the Scripture that "He was no longer prideful and he "knew" his Father would welcome him back."?

Lafftur · Jul 20, 2019

Nat2019 said:

Oh Nat, human reasoning in blindness. The Holy Spirit gives sight and understanding to God's Word. The Bible without the Holy Spirit is blindness - can't understand anything.

Seek God with all your heart. We're not to lean on our own understanding, we're to acknowledge Him in all our ways and He will direct our path.

dcontroversal · Jul 20, 2019

Margo74 said:

Love is a process of growth and maturity AFTER ONE HAS BEEN SAVED ETERNALLY FROM ABOVE by grace through faith....

Lafftur · Jul 20, 2019

Guojing said:

A church did not teach me this parable. The Holy Spirit did.

Verse 19 - "am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants."

That sounds like humility to me. Pride would have come home and demanded more money.

Karraster · Jul 20, 2019

The Prodigal Son is the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

Margo74 · Jul 20, 2019

Guojing said:

the prodigal son was repentant and was willing to be one of the hired help and not the son but his father did welcome him back with much love and joy .. not all prodigals return, including prodigal sons/daughters of God

Guojing · Jul 20, 2019

Lafftur said:

What is the context of the point about hired servants in the verses before that?

Do I have to spell out for you what the scripture wrote?

dcontroversal · Jul 20, 2019

Lafftur said:

Funny how many skew that parable to teach a losable salvation even though numerous facts are evident, such as...

a. He was a son throughout the whole process and was never NOT A SON

b. He was only presumed as dead even though he was very much ALIVE throughout the whole process

c. He was received as a Son and not cast off due to his rebellion

This absolutely teaches eternal security...YOU MIGHT SAY HOW and I will explain

HEBREWS STATES CLEARLY that IF SALVATION CAN BE LOST NO ONE GETS IT BACK....and if the PRODIGAL WAS LOST AND DISOWNED as a SON HE WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN RECEIVED back as a SON......

Guojing · Jul 20, 2019

Lafftur said:

Whenever I hear the words “sounds like”, that is a sign that someone is reading into the bible.

Is it that hard to read the bible literally?

Guojing · Jul 20, 2019

dcontroversal said:

It’s funny how you keep thinking I believe salvation is losable in the church age when we were discussing this parable in another topic

Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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