Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Margo74]

Accursed here does not mean to be sent to hell, it means to be removed from the congregation or loss of everything significant.

what could be more significant than losing salvation .. lol .. if one does not love Christ, one will be accursed as in lost to hell as Christ Himself said, "IF you love Me, [THEN] keep my Commandments" .. so, are you saying we don't have to keep His Commandments coz we don't love Him but we shall still be saved to eternity with God aka Christ Whom we believe in but do not love .. how ridiculous is that thinking ..

 

[Nat2019]

I suppose you are a lady from your display pic? I understand where you are coming from.

To me, faith is more straightforward. I have never seen Jesus in the flesh before, I have never seen him performing those miracles and dying on the cross, and resurrecting on the 3rd day. I have never seen a "sin" in my life, nor have I seen hell.

But because the Word of God tells me a story of someone like Jesus doing all those things and being raised from the dead to justify me from my sins, I put my trust that it really happened. He died for my sins and rose again for my justification.

This is like what Jesus told doubting Thomas about us, "blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe".

Hi Guojing, you said-I have never seen a "sin" in my life, nor have I seen hell.

1 John 1:8-10 New International Version (NIV)
8 (If we claim to be without sin), (we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us). 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sinsand purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

 

[Nat2019]

I suppose you are a lady from your display pic? I understand where you are coming from.

To me, faith is more straightforward. I have never seen Jesus in the flesh before, I have never seen him performing those miracles and dying on the cross, and resurrecting on the 3rd day. I have never seen a "sin" in my life, nor have I seen hell.

But because the Word of God tells me a story of someone like Jesus doing all those things and being raised from the dead to justify me from my sins, I put my trust that it really happened. He died for my sins and rose again for my justification.

This is like what Jesus told doubting Thomas about us, "blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe".

Hebrews 11:1 New International Version (NIV)
Faith in Action
11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

Instead of long lists of personal comments, read one small passage.

 

[Margo74]

Accursed here does not mean to be sent to hell, it means to be removed from the congregation or loss of everything significant.

ohhhhhhhhhhh come on .. accursed means eternity in lake of fire .. Christ Himself said, "IF you love Me, [THEN] keep My Commandments" .. so we don't have to keep His Commandments IF we don't love Him but still we shall be saved and spend eternity with God aka Christ Whom we do not love .. how ridiculous .. don't go by man's definition of "accursed" .. God's Holy Spirit inspired Word rises above man's "tower of BABBLE" and accursed means lost to eternity in lake of fire .. only those who love Christ will be in heaven with Him .. I mean, really, how far will you OSAS believers go to rationalise and justify the impossible ..

 

[Guojing]

Hi Guojing, you said-I have never seen a "sin" in my life, nor have I seen hell.

1 John 1:8-10 New International Version (NIV)
8 (If we claim to be without sin), (we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us). 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sinsand purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

When I say I have never seen a sin, I don't mean I have not done anything wrong.

What I meant was that, I never with my eyes, see a "sin" as what the bible described. To someone who is reading the Bible for the first time, he might ask "What is a sin"?

 

[Guojing]

"The Word of God tells me a story.......I put my trust that it really happened." Do you KNOW that it really did happen?

There is no way I will "know" because I was not alive on Earth when that happened. I did not have a chance to witness those events with my own eyes.

But I put my faith in the Word of God that says it did happen, and I believe, as Galatians 3 stated, I trusted in the Word, just as Abraham did, and I receive the same "reckoning for righteousness".

 

[Guojing]

Hebrews 11:1 New International Version (NIV)
Faith in Action
11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

Instead of long lists of personal comments, read one small passage.

Yes, that is why I don't want to lump faith with works as what some others do here. To me, faith is simply believing something even though you do not see it.

It certainly does not include works of any kind, whether before or after, whether is it water baptism, rejecting the mark of the beast etc.

 

[Margo74]

Yes, that is why I don't want to lump faith with works as what some others do here. To me, faith is simply believing something even though you do not see it.

It certainly does not include works of any kind, whether before or after, whether is it water baptism, rejecting the mark of the beast etc.

Taking the mark of the beast ensures spending eternity with him in lake of fire .. not taking the mark of the beast ensures our mortal death but eternity in heaven with God .. so, go with Satan for eternity or go with God for eternity .. I know which one I choose .. do you

 

[Nat2019]

Never stated that it did.

Never stated that it did.

So if someone is accursed, they are only removed from the congregation.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13New International Version (NIV)
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associatewith sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the (wicked person) from among you.”[b]

*It says here if a person continues sinning, they are labeled "wicked", and should be expelled.

Proverbs 15:29
The Lord is far from (the wicked), but he hears the prayer of the righteous.

Psalm 11:6
Let him rain coals on (the wicked); fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; (whoever does not obey) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Romans 2:5
But (because of your hard and impenitent heart) you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

Hebrews 10:26-31
For

(if we go on sinning deliberately)

after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” ...

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the

(works of the flesh)

are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that

(those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God).

Luke 12:5
But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the

(sons of disobedience).

 

[Nat2019]

Yes, that is why I don't want to lump faith with works as what some others do here. To me, faith is simply believing something even though you do not see it.

It certainly does not include works of any kind, whether before or after, whether is it water baptism, rejecting the mark of the beast etc.

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD

James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does itprofit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sentthem out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so (faith without works is dead also).

 

[Nat2019]

When I say I have never seen a sin, I don't mean I have not done anything wrong.

What I meant was that, I never with my eyes, see a "sin" as what the bible described. To someone who is reading the Bible for the first time, he might ask "What is a sin"?

Sorry not sure what you mean. I have seen sin and how it destroys peoples lives.

 

[Nat2019]

Sorry not sure what you mean. I have seen sin and how it destroys peoples lives.

1 John 3:4, NIV: "Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness." ..

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes, that is why I don't want to lump faith with works as what some others do here. To me, faith is simply believing something even though you do not see it.

Mhhmm.

Luke 1:45 -

"45 And blessed is the one having believed [G4100 - pisteusasa (verb)] that there will be a fulfillment to the things spoken to her from the Lord.”


Hebrews 11:1 - [G4102 - pistis (noun)]

 

[Nat2019]

ohhhhhhhhhhh come on .. accursed means eternity in lake of fire .. Christ Himself said, "IF you love Me, [THEN] keep My Commandments" .. so we don't have to keep His Commandments IF we don't love Him but still we shall be saved and spend eternity with God aka Christ Whom we do not love .. how ridiculous .. don't go by man's definition of "accursed" .. God's Holy Spirit inspired Word rises above man's "tower of BABBLE" and accursed means lost to eternity in lake of fire .. only those who love Christ will be in heaven with Him .. I mean, really, how far will you OSAS believers go to rationalise and justify the impossible ..

Will an acc

@dcontroversal and @UnderGrace say, "No, a true believer cannot lose their salvation."

Well, just for the record.........

I believe a true believer will NEVER lose their salvation.

But, what is the definition of a "true believer" and "salvation"?

Salvation - to be saved from God’s wrath which destroys Body and Soul; to not perish in the Lake of Fire which is the final judgment.

True Believer – a person that is recognized by God and all of heaven as one of His because the person by faith has received the Blood of Yeshua/Jesus for forgiveness of their sins and the Body of Yeshua/Jesus as the gift of Righteousness in exchange for their filthy rags of righteousness.

Also, the true believer has been given the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit seals and indwells the true believer. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth that leads, guides, comforts, instructs, corrects and empowers the true believer to be a witness of Yeshua/Jesus in the Earth.

Note: New believers can be tossed around a bit and even question if their salvation is real – this is normal.

Just keep growing in the knowledge of God’s Word and rely on the leading of the Holy Spirit. He will bear witness to your spirit that you are saved. He will teach you and give you understanding of the scriptures. Be sure to fellowship with other true believers – love and encourage each other.

If you believe a true believer cant lose salvation, you believe they cant go back to their previous sinful lifestyle. People that continue living their previous lifestyle are labeled "wicked" and shall be expelled from the church and Gods kingdom.

So if you say a person, cant lose salvation you are saying they cannot God back to their sinful lifestyle.

OSAS believers say we are-
"automatically made perfect by the spirit within us".

If this is true why are "OSAS believers disobeying the bible" as I have seen in churches. Why isn't the holy spirit changing them?.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT (to add to my post):

Acts 17:4 -

"Some of the Jews were persuaded [G3982 - epeisthēsan / peithó (verb; passive)] and joined Paul and Silas, along with a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few leading women."


[quoting from Bible Hub]

"HELPS Word-studies
3982 peíthō (the root of 4102 /pístis, "faith") – to persuade; (passive) be persuaded of what is trustworthy.

The Lord persuades the yielded believer to be confident in His preferred-will (Gal 5:10; 2 Tim 1:12). 3982 (peíthō) involves "obedience, but it is properly the result of (God's) persuasion" (WS, 422)."

[end quoting]

 

[Nat2019]

Will an acc

If you believe a true believer cant lose salvation, you believe they cant go back to their previous sinful lifestyle. People that continue living their previous lifestyle are labeled "wicked" and shall be expelled from the church and Gods kingdom.

So if you say a person, cant lose salvation you are saying they cannot God back to their sinful lifestyle.

OSAS believers say we are-
"automatically made perfect by the spirit within us".

If this is true why are "OSAS believers disobeying the bible" as I have seen in churches. Why isn't the holy spirit changing them?.

Sipsey! Say it nicely.

Obviously the God you follow has no "power" to stop you sinning. This is a powerless Gospel (OSAS). And the holy spirit is always mentioned in OSAS for doing all the work in a believer, yet many dont believe it actually does have power, to make you acceptable to God (many of you dont even believe the spirit can stop you sinning). This is why I turned away from this powerless Gospel.

 

[Guojing]

Sorry not sure what you mean. I have seen sin and how it destroys peoples lives.

Have you seen "hell"? Maybe if you understand that question and what is it trying to ask, you will understand better what I mean when I said I have never seen "a sin".

 

[Nat2019]

^ EDIT (to add to my post):

Acts 17:4 -

"Some of the Jews were persuaded [G3982 - epeisthēsan / peithó (verb; passive)] and joined Paul and Silas, along with a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few leading women."


[quoting from Bible Hub]

"HELPS Word-studies
3982 peíthō (the root of 4102 /pístis, "faith") – to persuade; (passive) be persuaded of what is trustworthy.

The Lord persuades the yielded believer to be confident in His preferred-will (Gal 5:10; 2 Tim 1:12). 3982 (peíthō) involves "obedience, but it is properly the result of (God's) persuasion" (WS, 422)."

[end quoting]

Sorry all your writing isnt straight forward. It's pretty confusing.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Sorry all your writing isnt straight forward. It's pretty confusing.

None of it was "my writing"... I'm simply quoting a verse, and supplying the Greek... plus a quote from BibleHub showing what the "passive" form means (in that verse).

Quoting.

 

[Nat2019]

Sorry all your writing isnt straight forward. It's pretty confusing.

None of it was "my writing"... I'm simply quoting a verse, and supplying the Greek... plus a quote from BibleHub showing what the "passive" form means (in that verse).

Quoting.

Ok sure