Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,693
7,177
113
We get to care for others to action. We get to believe, enough to yearn for His fellowship. We get to worship the One who delights over us and our hearts desire to seek things in the heavenly realm. We get to know the truth of Jeremiah 15:16. We get to have the blood of Christ bring us familial relationships. We are so blessed with Him from taking our salvation from have to or else to having the laws put in our hearts so we get to.

I can think of nothing more pure, more holy, more productive than Him. We get to abide in Him, seeking His Will for our lives. We are so blessed. Thank You!!! Oh Lord, may all that we say and do be with a sincere intention draw nearer to you for no other reason than we love and honor You. You have given us the priceless opportunity to fellowship with Your presence in our lives. We get to be holy, set apart, because You are. On my own, I am the opposite. I am like Paul, a chief among sinners.

We get to be forgiven, brings me to my knees all that He has done for all of us. We get to love and we even get to suffer (not easy, (boy do I stumble), but with His Yoke the burden is light and rest is found).

Love to all of you, brothers and sisters, those who share the same blood of Christ in their hearts.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,502
713
113
I agree 100% .. how can one deny God and still be with Him in Heaven for eternity .. doesn't even make sense, does it .. God will not force anyone to come to Him or to stay with Him .. He allows us to choose to come to Him and hopes we shall choose that and He allows those with Him to choose to stay with Him or to leave Him and hopes all with Him will choose to stay .. if God forced people to come to Him and stay with Him, Heaven would be a prison in which all there would be locked in and not able to leave .. what kind of Heaven is that .. if we choose to live in unrepentant sin, we choose to die as sin brings death, and we choose the lake of fire for all eternity .. if we sin but choose to genuinely repent and God reads hearts so knows, we restore the life sin takes away and we choose to return to God and to doing His Will, not ours, for eternal happiness .. Christ died to grant us the "free" gift of salvation but as with any gift, the gift of salvation must be accepted and used not abused and kept not discarded or lost .. Christ offered the gift to ALL but each must choose what to do about His offer .. He will allow us our choice and our choice is our consequence as well ..
Why not post the next verse for context?
2 Timothy 2:13 (KJV)
[13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Ok so lets see

A dog, is made into a new creation (by the creator himself) and the new creation is supposed to turn himself BACk into a dog? :LOL:

Do you listen to yourself?
If I correctly understand your analogy

A dog is a sinner

New creation is sinless

When creator make the dog into new creation, impossible for them to be back to a dog

When Jesus make a sinner into sinless, it is impossible for the sinless back to a sinner.

Adam and Eve was sinless and they make themselves a sinner

So it is possible for creation to change the self from sinless into sinner.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,571
13,548
113
58
Nope. Love is not great because it remains, it is great because God is love and we can establish that love and faith are two different things from 1 Cor 13.
Faith alone doesn't save, faith without works is dead:

James 2:26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

James 2:17So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead.

The works that must accompany faith are the works of love without which faith means nothing.

1 John 2:4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matt 25:
37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

This is judgement day and what we see is judgement based on works and not faith. You can not turn these passage to mean otherwise. Jesus says they were righteous because of what they did.
I had already previously mentioned that love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary throughout eternity, love will still be the governing principle that controls everything that God and his redeemed people/saints are and do. We will not need faith and hope throughout eternity in our glorified bodies in the presence of the Lord. Faith IN CHRIST alone saves (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9)

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10). We are not saved by faith + love/works.

In James 2:17-20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!

1 John 2:3-4 seperates the genuine believers from the make believers/says I know Him but... You continue to confuse the root of salvation (FAITH) with the fruit of salvation (WORKS) and the end result is salvation by works.

After a superficial reading of the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46) "on the surface" these verses seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works, yet all scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are merely the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because the righteousness of God has been imputed to them (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9).

When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works that are a manifestation of faith in Christ, by which one receives eternal life.

*Notice how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. Doing good deeds is the result of and not the cause of being righteous. You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.
 

Margo74

Active member
Jul 11, 2019
147
63
28
I have newsflash for you salvation is not even given based on our contrition for sin, repent does not mean to feel sorry for one's sin... so

your whole argument is based on faulty understanding.

It is faith that is counted for righteousness.
first of all, Abraham's faith that was counted for righteousness stemmed from his willingness to do God's Will and sacrifice his son Isaac as the Lord commanded .. so, obedience to God's command was a significant part of it all .. Abraham trusted God to only ask what was best ..

I never said "repent" means "feeling sorry" for one's sinfulness .. first of all, "feeling" sorry is not what would count anyway .. "being" sorry is what would count .. but repent means turning back to God (sin leads us away from God) and means changing back to doing God's Will instead of our own will .. I am fully aware of all the passages that tend to make OSAS a done deal as believed by its followers but there are so very many other passages which clearly say the destinations of the righteous and unrighteous for eternity and OSAS will not save an unrighteous person .. since I am well aware of passages that tend to support OSAS as its believers believe, are you not as familiar with the passages upon which I base my refuting OSAS as believed .. if OSAS is only about believing, then why isn't Satan saved - he believes .. Satan isn't saved coz he refuses to submit and obey God's Will and so do the unrighteous, some of whom are ones who are relying on OSAS and are being deceived big time
 

Margo74

Active member
Jul 11, 2019
147
63
28
If I correctly understand your analogy

A dog is a sinner

New creation is sinless

When creator make the dog into new creation, impossible for them to be back to a dog

When Jesus make a sinner into sinless, it is impossible for the sinless back to a sinner.

Adam and Eve was sinless and they make themselves a sinner

So it is possible for creation to change the self from sinless into sinner.
are you saying you never sin? .. seems so and if so, you are a liar and lying is a sin - a very great sin .. oh, and no animal can sin .. only mankind can choose to sin or not ..
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,502
713
113
I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.
Why not post the next verse for context?
2 Timothy 2:13 (KJV)
[13] If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
are you saying you never sin? .. seems so and if so, you are a liar and lying is a sin - a very great sin .. oh, and no animal can sin .. only mankind can choose to sin or not ..
So you agree that after save you able to sin again, am I correct?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
first of all, Abraham's faith that was counted for righteousness stemmed from his willingness to do God's Will and sacrifice his son Isaac as the Lord commanded .. so, obedience to God's command was a significant part of it all .. Abraham trusted God to only ask what was best ..

I never said "repent" means "feeling sorry" for one's sinfulness .. first of all, "feeling" sorry is not what would count anyway .. "being" sorry is what would count .. but repent means turning back to God (sin leads us away from God) and means changing back to doing God's Will instead of our own will .. I am fully aware of all the passages that tend to make OSAS a done deal as believed by its followers but there are so very many other passages which clearly say the destinations of the righteous and unrighteous for eternity and OSAS will not save an unrighteous person .. since I am well aware of passages that tend to support OSAS as its believers believe, are you not as familiar with the passages upon which I base my refuting OSAS as believed .. if OSAS is only about believing, then why isn't Satan saved - he believes .. Satan isn't saved coz he refuses to submit and obey God's Will and so do the unrighteous, some of whom are ones who are relying on OSAS and are being deceived big time

Satan does not have a Savior to believe IN.

I know every passage, that attempts to refute the assurance and complete assurance of the believer and in /historical/linguistical/audience context they fail each and every time.

And scripture is very clear when Abraham was counted righteous based on his faith alone apart from works

God is never, ever, ever in our debt!
We add nothing to salvation, God does not give us eternal life based on our performance and behaviour
This is the only Gospel in the entire Bible....ONE TRUTH with no fifty shades

Romans 4 1-5

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,034
4,456
113
Oh Lord, may all that we say and do be with a sincere intention draw nearer to you for no other reason than we love and honor You.
Oh Lord,

May we never forget that those who have a sincere intention to draw closer to but struggle to.

May we walk with them.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I agree: that is why I insist that we are not saved by "faith alone"
We are saved by faith alone apart from works when we come to the Lord and are saved, that is what "faith alone" refers to, it is refering to the point of salvation.
 
Apr 3, 2019
1,495
768
113
Romans 7:8 -
"But [the] sin, seizing its opportunity through [/by means of] the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the Law, sin is dead."

Romans 7:11 -
"For [the] sin, seizing its opportunity through [/by means of] the commandment, deceived me and through [/by means of it] the commandment put me to death."
[This] really [/needs] a bit [more] 'splaining -
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,034
4,456
113
I agree: that is why I insist that we are not saved by "faith alone"
Surely we are saved by faith alone.

But that faith will

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

That faith will manifest in us the good works in us prepared for us before we were saved by faith.

Our good works do not save us neither will our bad works unsave us (ok not sure if unsave us is a word but I'll go with it).

The point is we will endeavour to walk in those works and when we don't, we fess up to God, agree we got it wrong and ask for help, thank him we are forgiven.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Then every time you sin you have lost your salvation?
Every time I sin I ask Him to forgive me. If I kill a person and not fell guilty than rob the bank for living and never fell sorry, I will lose my salvation.

You may believe after you save, you welcome to chose to robe the bank as a job and not lose your salvation don't you?
 

Margo74

Active member
Jul 11, 2019
147
63
28
I agree: that is why I insist that we are not saved by "faith alone"
nice that someone agrees with me .. any who do not do God's Will and do not repent for such are not going to have eternal life in heaven and why so many think they will boggles my mind .. there will be NO unrepentant sinners in heaven, only repentant ones ..