Divorce?

OneOfHis · Jul 9, 2019

One of the reasons God hates divorce is because it is supposed to represent His relationship to us and last forever.

God used Hosea to show us how important faithfulness is in marriage by making him marry a lustful harlot which was supposed to represent Gods commitment to His own.

Moses gave the jews divorce knowing the hardness of their hearts but Jesus states clearly this is not Gods design for marriage.

That being said divorce itself is not some unforgivable sin, and remarriage is a separate issue entirely.

Hosea was not supposed to abandon his wife regardless of her adultery.

__________________

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
__________

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
____________
In absolute perfection following Gods design there is no divorce....
____________

7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
________
The pharisee almost make it seem as divorce was ok like moses said to do it here.
________

8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

__________
Jesus finished explaining now that divorce was never a "good" thing which is part of Gods design for marriage in the beginning
__________

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
______________

Then Jesus answers the questions of the pharisee in relation to the law.

"No not for "any" cause is divorce acceptable, and if you have put away your wives for a reason aside from fornication and married another, you commit adultery. Also if you have married one who was put away for this cause you also commit adultry."

Deuteronomy 24

1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;

4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

______________

We gentiles saved by grace through faith are not under the law, but God still hates divorce He does not change.

But if you find yourself in a marriage where you truly are being abused God sees all and knows your heart even better than you do.

As well as the hard heart of an abusive husband/wife.

If you are His and divorce or have been divorced before being His He will not leave you. He is more faithful than even hosea.

Also, in regards to remarriage.

New American Standard Bible
But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.

King James Bible
I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

New International Version
Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.

_____
New American Standard Bible
But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

King James Bible
But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

New International Version
But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

____________

22. agamos ►

Strong's Concordance
agamos: unmarried

Original Word: ἄγαμος, οῦ, ὁ, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: agamos
Phonetic Spelling: (ag'-am-os)
Definition: unmarried
Usage: unmarried, of a person not in a state of wedlock, whether he or she has formerly been married or not.
________
This word was used for purpose.

This applies to all marriage, wether or not it is remarriage.

1 Corinthians 7
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

OneOfHis · Jul 9, 2019

OneOfHis said:

One of the reasons God hates divorce is because it is supposed to represent His relationship to us and last forever.

God used Hosea to show us how important faithfulness is in marriage by making him marry a lustful harlot which was supposed to represent Gods commitment to His own.

Moses gave the jews divorce knowing the hardness of their hearts but Jesus states clearly this is not Gods design for marriage.

That being said divorce itself is not some unforgivable sin, and remarriage is a separate issue entirely.

Hosea was not supposed to abandon his wife regardless of her adultery.

__________________

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
__________

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
____________
In absolute perfection following Gods design there is no divorce....
____________

7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
________
The pharisee almost make it seem as divorce was ok like moses said to do it here.
________

8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

__________
Jesus finished explaining now that divorce was never a "good" thing which is part of Gods design for marriage in the beginning
__________

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
______________

Then Jesus answers the questions of the pharisee in relation to the law.

"No not for "any" cause is divorce acceptable, and if you have put away your wives for a reason aside from fornication and married another, you commit adultery. Also if you have married one who was put away for this cause you also commit adultry."

Deuteronomy 24

1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;

4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

______________

We gentiles saved by grace through faith are not under the law, but God still hates divorce He does not change.

But if you find yourself in a marriage where you truly are being abused God sees all and knows your heart even better than you do.

As well as the hard heart of an abusive husband/wife.

If you are His and divorce or have been divorced before being His He will not leave you. He is more faithful than even hosea.

Also, in regards to remarriage.

New American Standard Bible
But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.

King James Bible
I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

New International Version
Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.

_____
New American Standard Bible
But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

King James Bible
But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

New International Version
But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

____________

22. agamos ►

Strong's Concordance
agamos: unmarried

Original Word: ἄγαμος, οῦ, ὁ, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: agamos
Phonetic Spelling: (ag'-am-os)
Definition: unmarried
Usage: unmarried, of a person not in a state of wedlock, whether he or she has formerly been married or not.
________
This word was used for purpose.

This applies to all marriage, wether or not it is remarriage.

1 Corinthians 7
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

whoops

marriage is supposed to represent our relationship

😂

worded the opening poorly

inukubo · Jul 9, 2019

Philosophical question to add some fuel to the fire and hopefully spur some serious thinking...
What if your spouse is causing you to sin?

30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Robertt · Jul 10, 2019

kaylagrl said:

It says to leave him in scripture but remain single . Your choice , remain single or disobey and remarry . God can forgive

Robertt · Jul 10, 2019

inukubo said:

Causing you to sin how ? Is he saved , if so go with him to pastor for counselling

tourist · Jul 10, 2019

Robertt said:

OK, instead of remaining single the rest of one's life you disobey, remarry, then ask for forgiveness. Seems straightforward to me.

kaylagrl · Jul 10, 2019

Robertt said:

I didn't mention remarriage, I said God doesn't expect anyone to stay in an abusive marriage.

kaylagrl · Jul 10, 2019

inukubo said:

No one can cause another to sin. We are responsible for our actions, we will never stand before God and blame someone else.

Homewardbound · Jul 10, 2019

inukubo said:

Just a quick question here. How can a spouse cause a person to sin?
Seems to me that is the individual's response to a situation.

Robertt · Jul 10, 2019

kaylagrl said:

then u align with scripture. Praise God.

presidente · Jul 14, 2019

MissingLove said:

Hi MissingLove,

I am really sorry to hear about the problems you are having in your marriage. I've had a look at a couple of pages of the advice in the forum here, and I haven't read the whole thread. I wish there was an easy way to read your post.

Something I think you should consider-- and this isn't something you are going to always get from 21st century posters in a Christian forum-- is that we need to really consider what the Bible says about divorce. Western culture has moved far away with it, and many who profess faith in Christ, including pastors, counselors, psychologists, etc., have moved away from these teachings. In Matthew 19, while speaking to Pharisees who were arguing for putting away ones wife and giving her a divorce certificate, Jesus said that he who put away his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries her who is divorced commits adultery. In I Corinthians 7, Paul passes on a commandment of the Lord to the wife not to depart from her husband. But if she departs, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. In Jewish culture, a divorce was something a man gave a woman and not vice versa, based on interpretations of the Law of Moses.

Something else I would like to point out is that the Bible does not teach that you have a right to demand your husband go to counseling. It does not teach you have a right to give him an ultimatum that if he doesn't go to counseling that you can divorce him. Forget that it s counseling we are talking about. If you think about it, an ultimatum like that is a rather manipulative way of getting your husband to do what you want-- do this, or I will divorce you. That's worse than, "If you love me, you will...."

A lot of men do not like going to counseling. For one thing, you are asking to bear your soul, usually to a stranger. I heard a piece on the radio once about how women's speech centers were 'wired' to their pleasure centers in the brain in a way a men's aren't. Women may get more comfort out of talking about their feelings than men do, so that seems a more natural thing. Some men, and some people, are just skeptical of the whole counseling and psychological professions. I read an article about the relatively low success rate of marriage counselors. I don't know if the 'Christian counseling' industry is any more successful if you measure it by marriages being saved.

There was a 'Christian counseling' show on the radio in one city I lived in. I always caught just a very little bit of it late at night if I were out doing an errand and turned on the radio. But it seemed like whenever I turned it on, they were advising a woman to leave her husband. One one occasion, the man had allegedly said something to her, and they labeled that 'verbal abuse' and told her to leave him over it. I was appalled. Aside from the doctrinal issues, it just seemed extremely unprofessional to me for a counselor to give advice like this after only hearing one side of the story. The Proverbs teach that one man's case seems true until his opponent comes and offers his case. My wife is not intentionally dishonest, but if she has given a testimony or just rehashed to me about some past marital problem, her perspective to me can seem completely inaccurate. The reasons I did things aren't always right. Her perception of the important issues are different from mine.

I knew a couple who were on the verge of divorce. They had a large number of children, like 9 or 11 or some really high number. The man had cheated on his wife and she had taken him back. They were struggling to survive, about to be kicked out of where they lived in a place where it was hard to find apartments. My wife wasn't in, so she called me and lamented to me once about how bad her husband was. I'd never met him. She'd talk about their problems, and he'd talk about committing suicide. She felt it was selfish of him to want to leave her with all the kids. She had examples of things he'd say that were just awful.

I finally met the guy as they visited our place. She just barked at that poor man. I know he'd been irresponsible and he had cheated on her, but just for social interaction, he was quite calm, and she was quite a harpy toward him. We fed her and she calmed a bit. But I saw the dynamic. She'd talk about him and the things he'd done as if he were some kind of low scum, and he'd say maybe he ought to just die, then. He wasn't really talking about committing suicide. He was commenting on how extreme she was in what she said. It went on and on like that. It seemed to explain all the complaints she had about the terrible things he was saying. She was just laying into him verbally, and he deflected with those types of comments, and she took them seriously instead of seeing it as commentary on her own verbal attacks.

Another concern men have about counselors is that they might break up the marriage. This couple I just mentioned had a problem like that. They went to a secular counselor. The counselor must have heard the wife lay into her husband verbally...she could be rather loud, too... and she said 'You two do not need to be together.' The man wanted to save the marriage. He didn't want to go back to the counselor after this.

One concern I have on a forum like this is that you may be here talking in all honesty, but it is extremely foolish for people to tell you to get out if they know nothing of your husband's side of the story. They haven't seen you face to face or heard your voice. It's just a dangerous thing. The Bible says, "...let not the wife depart from her husband..." but you could go on a 'Christian Internet forum' or call a 'Christian counseling' program and get the opposite advice.

One of my professors in a PhD program was a psychologist, and during break or after class, I had a discussion with him about counseling. He was ethnic Indian, and he said back home, extended families lived in one house. If a newly married man came home late, his father or uncle might talk with him and tell him he needs to try to come home from the office earlier to spend more time with his wife. My wife is from Indonesia, and if couples in her people-group have marital problems, one spouse can ask their in-laws to advise the offending husband or wife. My professor said that the counseling industry was almost exclusively a phenomenon of individualistic societies. So I thought about it. Think about the lonely people who do not interact with their neighbors. They tend to live alone from early adulthood if they haven't married. They have a 'mind your own business' attitude, and deprived, culturally, of natural outlets, the counseling industry emerged.

I am not saying a good counselor might not help your marriage, but if your husband will not go to counseling, maybe you can get help informally from a pastor, from relatives, or from a godly older married couple.

More in the next message.

presidente · Jul 14, 2019

I'd also like to share some experiences from my own marriage. When we have gone through stressful times like moving, going to a new country, her being pregnant, having a baby, post partum blues, unemployment, one of us living with in-laws, or sometimes three of four of those at once, we've experienced times when we were stressed.

So you can get into this pattern where just about anything he says irritates her and just about anything she says irritates him. She picks up on her annoyance with him and he picks up on her annoyance with her. These feelings feed off one another and you end up in a spiral where you don't get along.

We've gone through that several times when we moved especially if we had those other stressers. The way I deal with it is to spend some time in prayer with my wife. I ask her to join me in both humbling ourselves, confessing our own sins to each other (rather than pointing out the other's) and to God, and asking God for help in our relationship. It isn't the time for 'You hurt me when you did X.' yet. When you get out of the cycle of not getting along, you can do that. We spent time in prayer and confession of sins like that, and apologize, and on a number of occasions, it has revitalized our marriage. It's a simple thing really.

The obstacles I faced when I did this is my wife will say I'm insincere about praying, or she just doesn't want to be fake or insincere praying, or that I need to change and just pray (as if it is 100% my fault.) From my perspective, the big problem was her negative attitude about me and whatever I did, but it probably went both ways. When we got past that and prayed, it seemed to improve things.

I wrote earlier that you don't have a right to demand your husband go to counseling. If you say, "If you don't do X, I will divorce you" and he doesn't do X, that doesn't mean God gives you permission to divorce him, even if you think X is a good thing. Even if he is actually supposed to do X, that doesn't mean God is okay with you divorcing him. You wrote you are roommates and you brought up not having children. So I am guessing not being physically intimate may be an issue. You don't have a right to demand he go to marriage counseling, but you do have a wifely right to sex. A man should provide this for his wife. Some men are not physically able due to handicaps, injuries, etc. This is something you might actually consider getting the church involved in as a church discipline issue. I think it was Boston, that in the first colonial church there, the first man who was disciplined by the church and cut off from fellowship was disciplined for not having sex with his wife. It's wrong if your husband subjects you to a sexless marriage. If you got a witness or two to confront him with you, maybe a pastor from the church, that's one approach.

But I'd advise suggesting the prayer thing first. If you've gotten to the point where you can't stand each other, some people find it difficult to have sex under those circumstances.

kaylagrl · Jul 15, 2019

presidente said:

Please stop and go back and read the Ops posts. She wasn't manipulating nor demanding. She needed help in her marriage and going to counseling is the way to deal with issues you can't solve alone. He should want to step up and help fix the marriage, she shouldn't have to beg and plead with him. Her intentions were right.

presidente said:

Perhaps she hadn't moved past the fact that he had cheated on her? Kind of smarts a bit, especially of she bore those 11 kids herself. He disrespected her, his marriage and broke his vows. Just because she took him back doesn't mean she was past the hurt. In other words he put himself in the dog house.

presidente said:

Because you know a couple that things didn't work out for them doesn't mean counseling isn't good for couples. There are times you need someone to help you work through issues. All kinds of Christian counselors or pastors that can help a couple in trouble.

presidente said:

That's wonderful, but what if your wife refused to do that? What if she refused to talk to you? And it went on for years, then what?

presidente said:

So I'm guessing from your posts you didn't see her update and the fact that she found out he was having an affair with a mutual friend?

presidente · Jul 15, 2019

tourist said:

This reminds me of the passage in the Old Testament about God singling out the person who despises His law, and also the verse in Hebrews 10 that says if we sin wilfully after we have knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation.

It is very foolish to plan to sin and ask forgiveness. God is not mocked.

presidente · Jul 15, 2019

kaylagrl said:

Do you have any scriptures in mind where it says that God does not expect anyone to stay in an abusive marriage?

What's abuse? I read comments like this, but I know there are people who talk about emotional abuse, psychological abuse, etc. If a man tells his wife, "You are so fat, I can't stand to look at you naked, and it is a real chore to sleep with you." She tells a marriage counselor or a pastor. The counselor or pastor says, "That's emotional abuse." Maybe so. It may be the man's honest opinion and belief, too, but a cruel thing to so.

So now this wife goes on the Internet and reads a room full of people saying that she is allowed to divorce, or even divorce and remarry, if she is in an abusive marriage. The pastor or counselor said the husband's comment was abusive and all these people are saying she is justified to divorce if the marriage is abusive. Let's suppose both husband and wife are Christians. So it is it right for her to divorce? Is it right for her to remarry?

I suspect a lot of couple who do not get along well have engaged in verbal abuse. Yelling. Is that abusive behavior? I'd imagine there are a lot of couples who have gone through difficult times where husband and/or wife raised their voice. That's not good. Is it abusive? Is it grounds for divorce? What about saying hurtful words? What if those words are honest-- you look a bit like a whale in those jeans? Is it only abusive if the words are said with the intention to hurt the other? What if it was just a one-off comment. If your husband says hurtful words once, are you free to divorce him? If a man's wife says hurtful words once, is he free to divorce her? What scripture is this based on?

Or are we just talking about physically abusive behavior? None of us wants to see someone get beat up or die in an abusive marriage. If you go to a feminist-run domestic violence center, they might give out a pamphlet that says basically once an abuser, always an abuser, that tries to convince you that if you are having marriage problems and your spouse exhibits certain traits common with those having marriage problems, that he just might kill you. Of course, the pamphlet probably will not address the issue of women hitting men, which happens quite a bit in marriages with domestic violence, too. Is a one-off punch, slap, etc. grounds for divorce? For remarriage? What does the Bible say about this?

The problem here is the disconnect between the advice and what the Bible actually teaches. And can we really say that God never expects anyone to stay in an abusive marriage? I remember hearing about Augustine's mother, that though her husband had a violent temper, she was so respectful and submissive that he never laid a hand on her. Rome was a rather domineering culture where Rome dominating other cities was a part of the state religion the people were indoctrinated into, and the idea of the ruling class dominating others was part of their beliefs and values. So it must have been rough for Christian wives back then. But did Christians promote widescale divorce in cases of Christian wives married to Christian husbands?

I am also thinking of the advice Peter and Paul gave to slaves. Slaves typically lived in the same household with their masters. Peter told slaves that if they were mistreated for doing what is right, that was commendable before God. But he didn't tell them all to run away.

Many of us have heard testimonies about some preachers past sinful days, how he used to be abusive to his wife and she prayed for him. He got saved, stopped beating her, started loving his wife, and got on the right track. I remember hearing a testimony from a preacher who said he used to have a mohawk and ride a motorcycle...that he used to beat his wife and do all kinds of other bad stuff. He was upset about her going to church. But he went to the church one time when his wife was there with a small group of other women praying, and heard her outside the door, pleading with the Lord to save his soul and it really touched him and he felt really convicted and led to his conversion.

So can we confidently decree that this woman was outside of the will of God for staying in an abusive marriage and praying for her husband while married to him? If so, do you have any scripture to back up that idea? Did she sin against the Lord by staying married? Can we blame her for it?

presidente · Jul 15, 2019

kaylagrl said:

Apparently a lot of stuff happened that I haven't read yet, but a wife telling her husband she will divorce him if he doesn't do X, even if X is going to counseling is manipulative.

tourist · Jul 15, 2019

presidente said:

The bible is full of examples where sarcasm is used but it may take a certain measure of discernment to recognize it for what it is.

tourist · Jul 15, 2019

presidente said:

Would this be an example of a wife being submissive? Does the wife have any rights at all? There is a difference between a wife being submissive or being a doormat to an insensitive abusive husband.

presidente · Jul 15, 2019

Angela53510 said:

A lot of behaviors are abusive. My guess is that it would be extremely rare to find a couple that ever had a quarrel where neither husband or wife had not done something verbally or emotionally abusive. Aren't we generally just supposed to repent and forgive when it comes to verbal and emotional abuse? My concern here is that the language many people use, like yours above, can make people think they have license for divorce. Many married individuals who are frustrated with the marriage who isn't getting along with his/her spouse could think back and find instances of behaviors that were abusive.

Your premise also seems to be that marriage is somehow based on a 'vow.' The Bible does not mention this. There are references to covenant and marriage, but the custom back then to enact the agreement was the groom paying a brideprice. The pre-Christian pagan Romans had a practice of bride and groom standing before a pagan priest and saying words, or at least the bride said some words acknowledging she was taking her husband's name. The Roman Christians had Christians stand before a priest/elder and say their vows. But the Bible does not teach this. So why would our marriage be based on the cultural-add-on to how our western cultures perform wedding ceremonies, as opposed to what marriage is in scripture?

As far as 'control' goes, there are some controlling behaviors that would be unloving. But there may be many things that are not unloving that could easily be labeled as 'controlling' in our culture. The Bible does not say, "Thou shalt not be controlling."

Your statement seems way broader than what we are discussing. What about the slaves in I Peter 2 suffering 'according to the will of God.' He pointed to Jesus as an example and encouraged his readers/hearers to follow in His steps. If they lived in the same house with their masters as many of them did, then they were in some kind of 'relationship' in the household. They may have been beaten for telling the kids in the household about Jesus, praying, etc.

We can agree that husbands are to love their wives and not be cruel to them. Wives are also to treat their husbands with submission, reverence and love, too. But does that mean that Christians the righteous path for Christians married to those who sin is always the least difficult path?

I can agree with that.

presidente · Jul 15, 2019

tourist said:

I apologize if I did not follow the point you were making. There are many people who would seriously give the advice you did...but usually not so directly.

Divorce?

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