Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[dcontroversal]

Overall, I just wanted to add something to what I said earlier, that if you're walking in perseverance and Holiness, confessing sin and in right standing with Christ, you shouldn't have to worry about the question of whether you can lose your salvation. But I also refuse to walk around in fear that if I do something, I will be condemned. This is something I tend to struggle with a lot. I think the right way to view this is to believe that if I mess up, I come back to Christ, make right with Him and move on. I don't allow sin to govern the way I think and act. Its something I need to remind myself of every day.

The best way to look at it is from the absolute truth that the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.....SALVATION IS ONE SUCH GIFT!!

 

[seed_time_harvest]

We definitely cannot merit salvation, but does that mean we cannot lose it? I also can give you 20 dollars as a gift and you can still lose it.

Yes you can lose $20.00 physically but how do you lose the thought of It.What I’m saying Is GOD looks at the heart man looks at outward appearances.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yeah, we see it different. I see it directed to true believers, who truly converted at one time.

Hebrews 5:12-14 is about spiritual immaturity, 6:1 starts with a conjunction of “therefore” so its speaking to those same believers who are immature based on how I’m reading it. IMO if someone, who truly converted at one time, continues in willful sin or refuses to mature there are real consequences, but not loss of salvation.
‬
I heard this argued:
Do you agree those in Hebrews 3 were still God’s covenant people? Did they lose their salvation since they did not make it to the promise land? Did Moses lose his salvation since he didn’t make it to the promised land?
OT doesn’t say they lost their salvation; Numbers 14:20 if anything says He forgave them. They did physically die.

Then eternal life is not eternal. And must be earned by our own power.

I believe in Gods omniscience. I do not for a minute think God is going to give a person ETERNAL life, Knowing at some point in the future, he will have to take it back.

So no. I can not believe this loss of salvation interpretation

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, those promises are true eternally-gratefull, but those promises are dependent up on our having faith from beginning to end.

Then it is not a gift, It is a reward, or wage for our ability to remain in faith. Thus it is not of grace. It is of works.

Remember, we are saved by grace through faith (on-going) and this not of ourselves. It is the gift of God, not by works.

Yes, we are saved,, It does nto say we are being saved, or we MIGHT be saved, it was literally have been saved. (In the greek saved is in the perfect tense, it means it is a completed action.) If salvation could possibly be lost in ancy circumstance. Then we have not been saved (perfect tense) at best, we have started our salvation process. But must complete it. Meaning it is on us, Not on God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think the question many are asking is, if you stopped having faith, did you really have it to begin with?

My issue with this whole thing of "having faith from beginning to end" is what does that practically mean for the believer? Does it mean continually acting in a way which pleases God? Possibly but then there might be those who walk around in fear that they may lose their salvation if they sin, if you know what I mean? So, I don't know where the dividing line is. I do agree that we need to continually hold fast to the faith that we had when we first professed Christ but what happens if we stumble and fall? Or start willfully sinning? Does God abandon us? I need to do more study on the subject because for me and for many others, I am sure it is still an issue of contention.

I try to look at it in a human standpoint, to view what it takes for one person to trust another.

You meet someone, And you get to know them and like them, You really get close, so close in fact you get married, or start up a partnership in some project or event or work. But that faith is dependent on what the other person does. That person can change, he can fail you in a few areas, he can start showing signs that they are untrustworthy. But even then (barring a HUGE event which totally destroys your faith in them, say like a cheating spouse) it takes awhile for your faith to waver, and most likely, will take alot of events which prove unfaithfulness for faith to stop completely.

Now when we bring this to spiritual faith, To say we can LOSE faiht in God is to say God has done this to us. (Failed=us in either some MAJOR way or continual failure and proves himself untrustorthy)

We did not gain faith by our own power anyway, It was Gods work which led us to faith by proving his faithfulness, (see John 6) It is no different after salvation than before. It is still Gods work. To say we can lose faith is to say God failed (and no this is not from a calvinist view. I do not agree with their view of limited atonement, I believe we are saved by free will)

So to me, a person who claims to lose faith in God. Up To the point they no longer believe could never have truly trusted God to begin with. Because how else can you explain God failure to prove himself faithful AFTER he saved them and gave them EVERY spiritual blessing in high places (eph 1) To me, they so called “lose faith” because they never truly experienced Gods full love in salvation. (This is called mere belief, Many believe in God and even christ, believe he died, and was risen, but they never come to true saving faith in him)

Thats why John said they were never of us, for if they were of us, they never would have left, But they left to expose the fact they never were truly of us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, there are conditions. As one example, consider the following:

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Faith is the condition:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— [if] indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.



All of those promises are dependent upon faith from beginning to end, as well as the seal of the spirit. Here's another one:

"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked servant, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. ‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow servant, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ “And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him." My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” - Matt.18:23-35

In verse 27 the servant (believer) is forgiven. But then because he would not forgive a fellow servant (believer) the believer is not forgiven, but the judgment is reinstated and the servant ends up paying the original penalty that he was previously forgiven for.

So we must earn our salvation by fulfilling the conditions?

I am sorry bro, you are not teaching grace here, you are teaching works. You want to boast of your salvation feel free.. But those who are saved by grace are saved, kept and will be risen by him. No matter what. Thats Gods promise.

God promises eternal life, not conditional life.

Grace is given based on mercy, to an unworthy person.. if a person must earn this grace by fulfilling conditions it is not grace. Because the person becomes worthy.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've come to truly believe that BOTH sides are right on the Eternal Security issue.

Those that believe that it is JESUS who keeps them saved, that once being born again, a Child of the Living God, that God will discipline those that are His Children, and go after them when they wander away, will NEVER lose the precious Gift of Eternal Life ARE RIGHT! They can never lose their Salvation.

Those that believe THEY have to work, or maintain their faith given to them from God, that can break the seal the Holy Spirit put on them, something ONLY Jesus can break, that were born Spiritually again from the dead only to die again Spiritually, ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!
THEY can lose THEIR Salvation.

I don't know about you, but I praise the Lord with all my being I count myself in the 1st group.

How can they lose it?

 

[PennEd]

How can they lose it?

They lose it by thinking their OWN works has some bearing on their Salvation. Which in essence means they NEVER knew Him and NEVER were saved.

However, I believe there are some who THINK they can lose it by somehow no longer having faith, yet will ALWAYS believe all the days since they were born again. Just because they THINK they can lose it, doesn't negate they are saved or COULD lose it.

It all boils down to asking yourself, is JESUS keeping me saved, or am I keeping MYSELF saved with a faith I can lose?


If you answer that Jesus is keeping you saved as a born again Child of God, then you have to ask yourself if Jesus can or will fail.

If you are keeping YOURSELF saved, then you can lose your Salvation. Again, refer to previous paragraph.

 

[Chester]

Think about this folks.

He knows very well he is a firm believer, and that is his identity and security.

Sadly. He has no idea if 20 years from now he will still maintain that firm belief. He could lose it. And by doing this, lose his salvation. (Ie, his salvation rests solely on his own power and ability.)

In other words. His way to salvation is HIS ABILITY to believe, Not Gods ability to sustain his faith. Its a backwards way of adding works to the gospel. Without actually calling it works.

Interesting how you take what I say and turn it around 180 degrees!

I said - "Because "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day." (II Tim. 1:12) My confidence and assurance rests in God and in His love and mercy, and not in the creed of man. "

You said, "In other words. His way to salvation is HIS ABILITY to believe, Not Gods ability to sustain his faith."

I do not think I said that my assurance of salvation rests in my own ability to believe? That is your interpretation of my life, I guess! That is OK; you are allowed your opinion. It does not change what I believe or knock my assurance in my Redeemer and my King!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Interesting how you take what I say and turn it around 180 degrees!

Interesting you would think I did.. I just interpreted what you said.

I said - "Because "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day." (II Tim. 1:12) My confidence and assurance rests in God and in His love and mercy, and not in the creed of man. "

If this was true, you would not even think for a second you or anyone else could possible fall away in unbelief.. This alone makes it true that your faith is in yoru ability to believe, Not god.

Unless your God can fail?? (Maybe that is what you meant? )

You said, "In other words. His way to salvation is HIS ABILITY to believe, Not Gods ability to sustain his faith."

I do not think I said that my assurance of salvation rests in my own ability to believe? That is your interpretation of my life, I guess! That is OK; you are allowed your opinion. It does not change what I believe or knock my assurance in my Redeemer and my King!

Once again, If this is true, You would not say and never say you or anyone else could freely chose to fall in unbelief.

Your end result (one can fall away in unbelief) does not match your beginning premise (it is God who sustains me)

If God sustains you, and it can be lost. God must not be very trustworthy, or you are in reality depending on your ability, there is no third option

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They lose it by thinking their OWN works has some bearing on their Salvation. Which in essence means they NEVER knew Him and NEVER were saved.

However, I believe there are some who THINK they can lose it by somehow no longer having faith, yet will ALWAYS believe all the days since they were born again. Just because they THINK they can lose it, doesn't negate they are saved or COULD lose it.

It all boils down to asking yourself, is JESUS keeping me saved, or am I keeping MYSELF saved with a faith I can lose?


If you answer that Jesus is keeping you saved as a born again Child of God, then you have to ask yourself if Jesus can or will fail.

If you are keeping YOURSELF saved, then you can lose your Salvation. Again, refer to previous paragraph.

Ok I see. Yes I agree

When I was a prodigal child. I questioned how can I be saved and do what I am doing, But at the same time, I never lost faith in God. I lost faith in myself.

 

[Chester]

They lose it by thinking their OWN works has some bearing on their Salvation. Which in essence means they NEVER knew Him and NEVER were saved.

However, I believe there are some who THINK they can lose it by somehow no longer having faith, yet will ALWAYS believe all the days since they were born again. Just because they THINK they can lose it, doesn't negate they are saved or COULD lose it.

It all boils down to asking yourself, is JESUS keeping me saved, or am I keeping MYSELF saved with a faith I can lose?


If you answer that Jesus is keeping you saved as a born again Child of God, then you have to ask yourself if Jesus can or will fail.

If you are keeping YOURSELF saved, then you can lose your Salvation. Again, refer to previous paragraph.

Interesting post, Penned,

But trying to follow your reasoning has my brain spinning in all directions! ah, oh, ugh!

It seems like you are saying that if you think you might lose your salvation, then you might . . . -- but in reality then you were never saved . . . . . .

Your statement that "They lose it by thinking their OWN works has some bearing on their Salvation. Which in essence means they NEVER knew Him and NEVER were saved." doesn't seem correct???? Why? In my early years I was taught and at least lived like my works had some bearing on my salvation. Since then I have come to realize this is a very false foundation. But I still have friends with my background and upbringing, and although many of them still think their works have "some bearing on thier salvation", I know them well enough to know that they are genuinely saved.

 

[Chester]

Interesting you would think I did.. I just interpreted what you said.

Exactly! You interpreted what I said. You did not believe that what I said could be true.

What I said does not match your personal doctrine and belief. I respect what you believe and you may believe what you want. That does not change what I believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Exactly! You interpreted what I said. You did not believe that what I said could be true.

My belief has nothing to do with it, It can‘t as you stated it.. You contradict yourself.

What I said does not match your personal doctrine and belief. I respect what you believe and you may believe what you want. That does not change what I believe.

Thats said, Because you claim you have faith in Christ, and it is christ who sustains then contradict it by saying you can lose that faith, thus lose salvation (insisting either God failed to keep you. Or you really do not trust God, you just claim you do.

i respect your view as a person. But I am worried about your view when it comes to the eternal perspective.

 

[PennEd]

Interesting post, Penned,

But trying to follow your reasoning has my brain spinning in all directions! ah, oh, ugh!

It seems like you are saying that if you think you might lose your salvation, then you might . . . -- but in reality then you were never saved . . . . . .

Your statement that "They lose it by thinking their OWN works has some bearing on their Salvation. Which in essence means they NEVER knew Him and NEVER were saved." doesn't seem correct???? Why? In my early years I was taught and at least lived like my works had some bearing on my salvation. Since then I have come to realize this is a very false foundation. But I still have friends with my background and upbringing, and although many of them still think their works have "some bearing on thier salvation", I know them well enough to know that they are genuinely saved.

Well first off we have to be careful in saying we KNOW someone is saved. We can hear them confess with their mouth but we can't see their hearts.

As you know, I don't believe there is ANY middle ground in Salvation. Either you have been born again and are saved or you haven't.

The very fact that you no longer believe your works have anything to do with you being saved testifies that you were. There are those that hold a death grip, that if you don't do X you aren't saved, and if you don't have some undetermined number and quality of works AFTER Salvation, then you lose it.

I have come to agree that merely thinking you can lose it is NOT grounds to say someone is not saved.

So that question remains. If a person has been born again, is it THEM who keeps them saved, or is it JESUS who keeps them saved. And if it is Jesus, will He fail to keep that person saved. Ask yourself that now.

 

[Skyline]

Then eternal life is not eternal. And must be earned by our own power.

I believe in Gods omniscience. I do not for a minute think God is going to give a person ETERNAL life, Knowing at some point in the future, he will have to take it back.

So no. I can not believe this loss of salvation interpretation

I did not say that with the viewpoint I had shared; It says the opposite - once truly converted you can be disciplined here on earth and/or you lose rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ, but not with loss of salvation. Hebrews has various warnings to true believers; these warnings have teeth.
Do you disagree with Hebrews 12:4-13? How would He discipline us - would it be limited in it’s forms?

Why did Paul say this to Corinthians? Paul says they also are on milk like those in Hebrews 5:12

“Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭11:30-31‬ ‭NIV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/111/1co.11.30-31.niv

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I did not say that with the viewpoint I had shared; It says the opposite - once truly converted you can be disciplined here on earth and/or you lose rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ, but not with loss of salvation. Hebrews has various warnings to true believers; these warnings have teeth.
Do you disagree with Hebrews 12:4-13? How would He discipline us - would it be limited in it’s forms?

Why did Paul say this to Corinthians? Paul says they also are on milk like those in Hebrews 5:12

“Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭11:30-31‬ ‭NIV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/111/1co.11.30-31.niv

Yet you say that Hebrews is taling about believers who have fallen away and can no longer be renewed to repentance. Meaning they lost salvation.

Can you not see my issue?

 

[Skyline]

Yet you say that Hebrews is taling about believers who have fallen away and can no longer be renewed to repentance. Meaning they lost salvation.

Can you not see my issue?

In regards to 6:6 what I am saying I lived through. I got saved young, was on fire (even putting printed flyers I made in mailboxes about the good news), but later went cold, I got disciplined 20+ years later, am stronger and more aligned with His will, extremely grateful for the discipline, repented on those willful sins I had, stopped them and moving onwards.
That is what 6:6 is about per my view. He could have called me home (6:3). By no means do I have it figured out; but the viewpoint I shared is one I have heard discussed theologically that makes sense.
My salvation never changed throughout that period. Once I converted young I was reborn.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In regards to 6:6 what I am saying I lived through. I got saved young, was on fire (even putting printed flyers I made in mailboxes about the good news), but later went cold, I got disciplined 20+ years later, am stronger and more aligned with His will, extremely grateful for the discipline, repented on those willful sins I had, stopped them and moving onwards.
That is what 6:6 is about per my view. He could have called me home (6:3). By no means do I have it figured out; but the viewpoint I shared is one I have heard discussed theologically that makes sense.
My salvation never changed throughout that period. Once I converted young I was reborn.

Ok but think

6:6 says if you fall away, you can not be renewed.

You walked away as a prodigal son (I did this myself for 5 years) and was restored, but you could not have fallen away, or according to hebrews 6, your salvation would be lost forever.

This is my point about the passage.

 

[Skyline]

Ok but think

6:6 says if you fall away, you can not be renewed.

You walked away as a prodigal son (I did this myself for 5 years) and was restored, but you could not have fallen away, or according to hebrews 6, your salvation would be lost forever.

This is my point about the passage.

I see what you’re saying. I’ll think on your viewpoint more today.
I read that and see ‘one cannot he born again since they, those being addressed, already are’; 6 starts with a conjunction and those in 5:11-14 are true believers, however, are mere infants on milk just like the Corinthians.

How can one come to repentance and ask for the free gift if one had already repented and taken the gift? Its impossible for them to come back to repentance and seek the gift which was already given.

Why doesn’t 1 John 2:19 use that term (Parapiptó)? I agree those described in 1 John 2:19 were not true converts to begin with