Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[RickyZ]

IMHO teaching that one can lose one's salvation would cause the believer to live in a constant state of fear that they might have committed some kind of sin that could have caused them to lose their place in Heaven. What is this sin? How many times must one sin in order to finally be kicked out of the kingdom? All I can see that would do is cause people to try and work their way into Heaven by continually doing the right thing, resulting in a lifeless and legalistic walk with Christ.

On the other hand, there must be some kind of accountability to us as believers. We can't simply live as we choose and not expect consequences for sin. If we're living like, smelling like and looking like the world, and we call ourselves believers, there is a problem somewhere.

Do you not think that the consequences for drifting away from Christ as a believer are not loss of salvation, but loss of other things? Such as peace, joy, fulfilment, strength, the ability to hear God and relate to Him, the wisdom to know the difference between right and wrong? If we choose to distance ourselves from God, we quench and grieve the Holy Spirit. We become unloving, hard-headed, prideful and selfish.

I think, that the Bible teaches there will be rewards in Heaven. See 2 Corinthians 5:10. If we're faithful in service to Christ, we'll receive an inheritance. Now, while I don't believe God shows favoritism and there will be no envy in Heaven, He does promise that our works will be tested as if by fire. If what we've done is for ourselves, it will be burned up though we ourselves may escape (but only just!). If we are faithful to the calling of Christ, we will receive the fullness of the blessing God has appointed to us.

Excellent, except the very begining. No sin determines your salvation. There is only one way in, and one way out. Confess the Christ or deny the Christ. That's it. All sin leads to consequences, both here and beyond. But confess or deny are the only way in ... and out.

 

[ToastAndTea]

Excellent, except the very begining. No sin determines your salvation. There is only one way in, and one way out. Confess the Christ or deny the Christ. That's it. All sin leads to consequences, both here and beyond. But confess or deny are the only way in ... and out.

No problem with that, but I was just saying that people that teach you can lose your salvation don't specify how or why this takes place. So it doesn't make sense to say you can lose your salvation and not teach how this can happen. But yeah, agreed with what you're saying brother.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So are you saying those addressed were/are true converts or not?

Not

A true convert would never return to something they repented from

You go back to law because thats what your true faith was in to begin with.

 

[dcontroversal]

I fully agree that Peter didn't deny Jesus in his heart but out of fear. He was human like the rest of us. Later, when Jesus asked him 3 times if he loved Him that was done for Peter's benefit to ease his mind from guilt. Asking him 3 times was significant in some way scripturally but I don't have an answer for that. It is clear in the bible that numbers are used prominently and have great significance.

I will never be abke to get around the following truth.....it was written to believers and is utterly swept under the rug by salvation losers...

If we believe not, he ABIDES FAITHFUL because he cannot deny himself.

This verse deals with being or becoming faithless after initial belief....the faith, righteousness and blood of Christ has been applied to the believer and of one becomes faithless after one believes, Jesus will still see his blood, faith and righteousness that has been imputed unto the believer.....exactly why the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.....SALVATION is one such gift.....!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No problem with that, but I was just saying that people that teach you can lose your salvation don't specify how or why this takes place. So it doesn't make sense to say you can lose your salvation and not teach how this can happen. But yeah, agreed with what you're saying brother.

I still want to know how and why a person who is truly saved would stop believing? Considering that you lose faith in people who fail you. So I understand that concept. But when does and will God fail us.

 

[tourist]

Not

A true convert would never return to something they repented from

You go back to law because thats what your true faith was in to begin with.

I fully concur that this person was never saved to begin with. It is sort of like this Proverb:

Proverb 26:11
As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool returns to his folly.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I fully concur that this person was never saved to begin with. It is sort of like this Proverb:

Proverb 26:11
As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool returns to his folly.

Yes, A dog returns because he was always a dog.

Just like a lawyer will always return to law. Because he is a lawyer.

 

[Skyline]

how did Judas go around healing the sick, raising the dead, cleansing lepers & casting out demons?

Are you saying you disagree with John 7:39 and John 20:22?

“But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:39‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:21-22‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[posthuman]

Are you saying you disagree with John 7:39 and John 20:22?

“But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:39‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:21-22‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

of course not, i'm asking how - in light of all of scripture, including this, did Judas work these miracles just as much as how did the others? Or does something force us to think he didn't? And how does that relate to Saul prophesying by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Skyline]

Not

A true convert would never return to something they repented from

You go back to law because thats what your true faith was in to begin with.

Yeah, we see it different. I see it directed to true believers, who truly converted at one time.

Hebrews 5:12-14 is about spiritual immaturity, 6:1 starts with a conjunction of “therefore” so its speaking to those same believers who are immature based on how I’m reading it. IMO if someone, who truly converted at one time, continues in willful sin or refuses to mature there are real consequences, but not loss of salvation.
‬
I heard this argued:
Do you agree those in Hebrews 3 were still God’s covenant people? Did they lose their salvation since they did not make it to the promise land? Did Moses lose his salvation since he didn’t make it to the promised land?
OT doesn’t say they lost their salvation; Numbers 14:20 if anything says He forgave them. They did physically die.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yeah, we see it different. I see it directed to true believers, who truly converted at one time.

Hebrews 5:12-14 is about spiritual immaturity, 6:1 starts with a conjunction of “therefore” so its speaking to those same believers who are immature based on how I’m reading it. IMO if someone, who truly converted at one time, continues in willful sin or refuses to mature there are real consequences, but not loss of salvation.
‬
I heard this argued:
Do you agree those in Hebrews 3 were still God’s covenant people? Did they lose their salvation since they did not make it to the promise land? Did Moses lose his salvation since he didn’t make it to the promised land?
OT doesn’t say they lost their salvation; Numbers 14:20 if anything says He forgave them. They did physically die.

No to your 2nd paragraph question....they missed out on the rest afforded believers in this life due to a lack of faith.....it had nothing to do with salvation which was seen in the deliverance from Egypt by faith in the blood of the passover

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.

Hey, we agree on something!

We are saved by grace through faith, faith from beginning to end and not just a one time confession. Consequently, if one stops having faith and goes back into willfully living according to the sinful nature, that individual is accumulating sin and is on their way to death.

"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

In order to wander away from the truth, one would have had to have been in the truth. Notice that if someone brings back the one who wandered away, a multitude of sins are covered over and he is saved from death. Regarding the need to remain in faith Paul said the following:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— [if] indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. - Col.1:22

"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first. - Heb.3:14

"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. - 1 Cor.15:2

Salvation is obtained by having faith from start to finish.

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ 49And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards (willfully living according to the sinful nature). 50The master of that servant will come on a day he does not anticipate and at an hour he does not expect. 51Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Eternal security is obtained by faith from beginning to end and not just by a one time confession.

For those who are going to disagreeing, I'm not talking about people who are believers who fall into sin. I'm talking about those who go back into the world and are willfully living according to the sinful nature. We all stumble as believers, committing sin, but those who are truly in Christ are wrestling to overcome sin. When a believer goes back into the world, living according to the sinful nature, then they are no longer wrestling to overcome sin, no longer being transformed in the image of Christ and are no longer bearing fruit. And if they died in that state, they will die in their sins. Consider the following scripture as well:

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yeah, we see it different. I see it directed to true believers, who truly converted at one time.

Hebrews 5:12-14 is about spiritual immaturity, 6:1 starts with a conjunction of “therefore” so its speaking to those same believers who are immature based on how I’m reading it. IMO if someone, who truly converted at one time, continues in willful sin or refuses to mature there are real consequences, but not loss of salvation.
‬
I heard this argued:
Do you agree those in Hebrews 3 were still God’s covenant people? Did they lose their salvation since they did not make it to the promise land? Did Moses lose his salvation since he didn’t make it to the promised land?
OT doesn’t say they lost their salvation; Numbers 14:20 if anything says He forgave them. They did physically die.

Those are not correct comparisons. Moses sinned in what he did by disobeying God, but in doing so he did not turn away from God. Understand that we are speaking about those who stop having faith and go back into willfully living according to the sinful nature and remain there. (See James 5:19-20).

Eternal security is not obtained by a one-time confession, but by faith from beginning to end.

 

[Ahwatukee]

So eternal life is not eternal life.

Thats good to know.

Gods promise that we will never die is not true

Again, Good to know

Gods promise that we will never hunger or thirst is not true

Again, good to know

Gods promise he WILl raise us on the last day is not true

His promise that we are sealed with the spirit UNTIL the day of redemption is not true

Its good to know All these things and other promised are not true, It would be so sad to have faith in God to keep his promises, only to later find out that non of those things are really true, and we will end up in hell anyway.

Yes, those promises are true eternally-gratefull, but those promises are dependent up on our having faith from beginning to end. Remember, we are saved by grace through faith (on-going) and this not of ourselves. It is the gift of God, not by works.

 

[ToastAndTea]

Hey, we agree on something!

We are saved by grace through faith, faith from beginning to end and not just a one time confession. Consequently, if one stops having faith and goes back into willfully living according to the sinful nature, that individual is accumulating sin and is on their way to death.

"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

In order to wander away from the truth, one would have had to have been in the truth. Notice that if someone brings back the one who wandered away, a multitude of sins are covered over and he is saved from death. Regarding the need to remain in faith Paul said the following:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— [if] indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. - Col.1:22

"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first. - Heb.3:14

"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. - 1 Cor.15:2

Salvation is obtained by having faith from start to finish.

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ 49And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards (willfully living according to the sinful nature). 50The master of that servant will come on a day he does not anticipate and at an hour he does not expect. 51Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Eternal security is obtained by faith from beginning to end and not just by a one time confession.

For those who are going to disagreeing, I'm not talking about people who are believers who fall into sin. I'm talking about those who go back into the world and are willfully living according to the sinful nature. We all stumble as believers, committing sin, but those who are truly in Christ are wrestling to overcome sin. When a believer goes back into the world, living according to the sinful nature, then they are no longer wrestling to overcome sin, no longer being transformed in the image of Christ and are no longer bearing fruit. And if they died in that state, they will die in their sins. Consider the following scripture as well:

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.

I think the question many are asking is, if you stopped having faith, did you really have it to begin with?

My issue with this whole thing of "having faith from beginning to end" is what does that practically mean for the believer? Does it mean continually acting in a way which pleases God? Possibly but then there might be those who walk around in fear that they may lose their salvation if they sin, if you know what I mean? So, I don't know where the dividing line is. I do agree that we need to continually hold fast to the faith that we had when we first professed Christ but what happens if we stumble and fall? Or start willfully sinning? Does God abandon us? I need to do more study on the subject because for me and for many others, I am sure it is still an issue of contention.

 

[dcontroversal]

If we become faithless he abides faithful because he cannot deny himself

Those that are peddling that they must maintain their salvation by maintaining their faith are false.....

My bible teaches the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.....Salvation is a gift maintained by the faithfulness of Jesus and those that say SIN CAN BUILD UP AND LEAD TO THE LOSS OF SALVATION DO NOT KNOW the God of the bible......

Where sin abounds, grace abounds the MORE <---WRITTEN TO BELIEVERS

Amazing how many claim Jesus and yet trample him underfoot by their false dogma.......makes me want to spew

 

[Ahwatukee]

Did jesus place conditions on them?

Yes, there are conditions. As one example, consider the following:

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Faith is the condition:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— [if] indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Eternal life. Never hunger and thirst, the state of being in christ, and the state of being sealed with the spirit.

Why did he not call it conditional life, if it was conditional on somethign we do or not do

How about the seal of the spirit. Why did he tell us UNTIL the day of redemption. (Unconditional) And NOT tell us or until we fail to do or live up to his standard (condition)

All of those promises are dependent upon faith from beginning to end, as well as the seal of the spirit. Here's another one:

"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked servant, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. ‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow servant, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ “And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him." My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” - Matt.18:23-35

In verse 27 the servant (believer) is forgiven. But then because he would not forgive a fellow servant (believer) the believer is not forgiven, but the judgment is reinstated and the servant ends up paying the original penalty that he was previously forgiven for.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I think the question many are asking is, if you stopped having faith, did you really have it to begin with?

According to scripture, I would say yes. Consider the following:

"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

In order to wander from the truth, one would have had to be in the truth. Here's another:

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ 49And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day he does not anticipate and at an hour he does not expect. 51Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

In the scripture above the servant is figurative for a believer and the "master" is figurative representing the Lord. The servant calls Him master and the master calls him servant. The reference to the servant beating his fellow servants and eating and drinking with drunkards is representing the acts of the willful acts of the sinful nature. That whole "then he never really was a believer" response was just created to get around the truth that a believer could lose salvation.

I'm not a "once saved always saved believer," but one who believes that our eternal security is dependent upon faith from beginning to end. Here's another one to consider:

"The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels."

By just mentioning this, it infers that Jesus can and will blot out names. The verse states that for those are victorious He will never blot out their names from the book of life, which would infer that those who are not victorious that He can and will.

My issue with this whole thing of "having faith from beginning to end" is what does that practically mean for the believer? Does it mean continually acting in a way which pleases God?

No, for as I'm as I am sure you would agree, no believer pleases God all the time. It means to take up your cross daily, which means to keep our testimony of Christ and the word of God regardless of what trials and tribulations God allows us to face in life. It also means to continue wrestling against the sinful nature, to overcome it.

When we believed, we became two natures: the old man representing the sinful nature and the new man in Christ. The idea is that as we go from faith to faith, the new man in Christ is displacing the sinful nature which is a life-long process through the sanctification of the Holy Spirit, which will come to its conclusion when we are caught up immortal and glorified. The believer who stops having faith and goes back into the world willfully living according to the sinful nature, is no longer wrestling with sin in that state and is no longer being transformed into the image of Christ, as well as not bearing fruit. But it does not mean that they were never in Christ. That is just an argument for the OSAS group. I'm also a believer in OSAS, except that it is dependent upon continuing in faith.

Possibly but then there might be those who walk around in fear that they may lose their salvation if they sin, if you know what I mean? So, I don't know where the dividing line is. I do agree that we need to continually hold fast to the faith that we had when we first professed Christ but what happens if we stumble and fall? Or start willfully sinning? Does God abandon us? I need to do more study on the subject because for me and for many others, I am sure it is still an issue of contention.

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned "if we stumble and fall Or start willfully sinning." These are two are at odds with each other. The believer who stumbles and falls, gets back up and confesses their sin, asking for forgiveness and continues in their faith. The believer who willfully sins, has wandered away from their faith and is willfully living according to the sinful nature. Our faith keeps us plugged into God's grace. When we stop having faith, we unplug our connection.

 

[ToastAndTea]

According to scripture, I would say yes. Consider the following:

"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

In order to wander from the truth, one would have had to be in the truth. Here's another:

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ 49And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day he does not anticipate and at an hour he does not expect. 51Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

In the scripture above the servant is figurative for a believer and the "master" is figurative representing the Lord. The servant calls Him master and the master calls him servant. The reference to the servant beating his fellow servants and eating and drinking with drunkards is representing the acts of the willful acts of the sinful nature. That whole "then he never really was a believer" response was just created to get around the truth that a believer could lose salvation.

I'm not a "once saved always saved believer," but one who believes that our eternal security is dependent upon faith from beginning to end. Here's another one to consider:

"The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels."

By just mentioning this, it infers that Jesus can and will blot out names. The verse states that for those are victorious He will never blot out their names from the book of life, which would infer that those who are not victorious that He can and will.

No, for as I'm as I am sure you would agree, no believer pleases God all the time. It means to take up your cross daily, which means to keep our testimony of Christ and the word of God regardless of what trials and tribulations God allows us to face in life. It also means to continue wrestling against the sinful nature, to overcome it.

When we believed, we became two natures: the old man representing the sinful nature and the new man in Christ. The idea is that as we go from faith to faith, the new man in Christ is displacing the sinful nature which is a life-long process through the sanctification of the Holy Spirit, which will come to its conclusion when we are caught up immortal and glorified. The believer who stops having faith and goes back into the world willfully living according to the sinful nature, is no longer wrestling with sin in that state and is no longer being transformed into the image of Christ, as well as not bearing fruit. But it does not mean that they were never in Christ. That is just an argument for the OSAS group. I'm also a believer in OSAS, except that it is dependent upon continuing in faith.

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned "if we stumble and fall Or start willfully sinning." These are two are at odds with each other. The believer who stumbles and falls, gets back up and confesses their sin, asking for forgiveness and continues in their faith. The believer who willfully sins, has wandered away from their faith and is willfully living according to the sinful nature. Our faith keeps us plugged into God's grace. When we stop having faith, we unplug our connection.

Overall, I just wanted to add something to what I said earlier, that if you're walking in perseverance and Holiness, confessing sin and in right standing with Christ, you shouldn't have to worry about the question of whether you can lose your salvation. But I also refuse to walk around in fear that if I do something, I will be condemned. This is something I tend to struggle with a lot. I think the right way to view this is to believe that if I mess up, I come back to Christ, make right with Him and move on. I don't allow sin to govern the way I think and act. Its something I need to remind myself of every day.

 

[PennEd]

I've come to truly believe that BOTH sides are right on the Eternal Security issue.

Those that believe that it is JESUS who keeps them saved, that once being born again, a Child of the Living God, that God will discipline those that are His Children, and go after them when they wander away, will NEVER lose the precious Gift of Eternal Life ARE RIGHT! They can never lose their Salvation.

Those that believe THEY have to work, or maintain their faith given to them from God, that can break the seal the Holy Spirit put on them, something ONLY Jesus can break, that were born Spiritually again from the dead only to die again Spiritually, ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!
THEY can lose THEIR Salvation.

I don't know about you, but I praise the Lord with all my being I count myself in the 1st group.