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There is only one safe place and that is Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is a river. A continuous flow.
Jesus put that river in motion.
That is my safety
Being in the river and in Christ.
Out of it is confusion,contention,and defeat and weakness.
" ...you will recieve power..."
Have you recieved power?
Lay hands on the sick?
Cast out demons?
Raise the dead?
These SIGNS SALL FOLLOW THOSE THAT BELIEVE...
Are they following you????
Are you a believer?
One with power
Or one without power?
According to the bible only power.
No power,no belief.
Without faith it is impossible to please God.
It all ties in.
The Holy Spirit is a river. A continuous flow.
Jesus put that river in motion.
That is my safety
Being in the river and in Christ.
Out of it is confusion,contention,and defeat and weakness.
" ...you will recieve power..."
Have you recieved power?
Lay hands on the sick?
Cast out demons?
Raise the dead?
These SIGNS SALL FOLLOW THOSE THAT BELIEVE...
Are they following you????
Are you a believer?
One with power
Or one without power?
According to the bible only power.
No power,no belief.
Without faith it is impossible to please God.
It all ties in.
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Not sure what you mean by hard to understand. Did you mean they are offensive to some? That would be one use of the words .
Words we preach are clearly understandable. Prophecy is the word of God. The believers new tongue Every believer has one needed to preach the gospel
When you prophesy by declaring the word of God. . . do you understand ?
Words we preach are clearly understandable. Prophecy is the word of God. The believers new tongue Every believer has one needed to preach the gospel
When you prophesy by declaring the word of God. . . do you understand ?
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Paul informs disciples that were water baptized by John of the need to be water baptized again. There was a need to be baptized in Jesus' name after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.
After water baptizing the group in Jesus' name, Paul then lays hands upon the disciples and they receive the infilling of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:4-6
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
After water baptizing the group in Jesus' name, Paul then lays hands upon the disciples and they receive the infilling of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:4-6
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
I have read the conversation and just wanted to put my thoughts out there. I believe all the things being spoken of here can come into play in the life of a believer. God has put me in an AoG Pentecostal church, and I LOVE them, I am supposed to be here, and I will testify they are God loving, Jesus praising, people loving, outside the walls looking on fire in the Spirit church. Boo-Ya!!!
And I hold the view that the understanding of tongues in this way is not entirely accurate. I don't speak in tongues that way because I feel like I'd be faking it and I just proclaim His word and my love for Jesus out loud when the Spirit starts falling heavy, but I know in my spirit that they are doing this for the glory of God, and I see no reason for it to be a divisive thing. I also hold very different views on eschatology with the whole pre-tib thing, but again this doesn't make me want to divide at all. I love the people He has blessed me to know, and we proclaim His name to this world as He commands. I also just can't label myself "Pentecostal", or anything else. I know it's at this point it’s just cliché, but I am just a Christian. I follow Jesus and want to tell everybody about Him.
I also wanted to share my perspective on the, “what it takes to be saved, baptism, tongues, repentance, thing”. I full heartedly agree repentance must come before salvation, it’s just part of it. But the question “Is repentance a work?”, is valid and worth looking into. Here are some verses that seem to suggest repentance is a gift.
Romans 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Acts 5:31
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
I personally believe repentance is a gift, but I also think it’s important to understand what repentance is. My understanding of repentance, leading to salvation, is when we see “MY way” for what it truly is, and turn from it in total submission. I personally was saying “I can’t do this anymore”, and it was God that picked me back up. This is my understanding of what repentance is, just to start.
I went up and repeated the prayer before, then went out and was baptized, and was not saved. I thought I was a Christian, and really liked the idea of Jesus, but did not know Him. When I was saved it was 100% all God. I didn’t even know what happened to me until the next day, so there was no baptism, or speaking in tongues when I was truly saved. I did get baptized again AFTER I was saved as a sign of obedience and public proclamation I am born again.
In summary, I do believe repentance is a must, otherwise you still see “your way” as okay. This said, I believe repentance is a gift from God granted to us and not something we just “do”, nor can we take any credit for it, but the FIRST thing we are commanded to do as soon as Jesus ministry begins is to “repent”, so was Jesus wrong in saying that? Was John wrong in his message making straight the path for Him? We must turn from our way because “my way” only leads to death. Also, I do know and understand there are passages that suggest “we” repent. I was only sharing how He has brought me to understand it up to now. Thank you for reading and may His Spirit grant us all boldness to proclaim His name to this world that needs it, and to have these discussions and debates, but to do so knowing what bonds believers together and not let these things split us, or bring shame to His name. I pray this all in the mighty name of the King, Jesus. Amen.
And I hold the view that the understanding of tongues in this way is not entirely accurate. I don't speak in tongues that way because I feel like I'd be faking it and I just proclaim His word and my love for Jesus out loud when the Spirit starts falling heavy, but I know in my spirit that they are doing this for the glory of God, and I see no reason for it to be a divisive thing. I also hold very different views on eschatology with the whole pre-tib thing, but again this doesn't make me want to divide at all. I love the people He has blessed me to know, and we proclaim His name to this world as He commands. I also just can't label myself "Pentecostal", or anything else. I know it's at this point it’s just cliché, but I am just a Christian. I follow Jesus and want to tell everybody about Him.
I also wanted to share my perspective on the, “what it takes to be saved, baptism, tongues, repentance, thing”. I full heartedly agree repentance must come before salvation, it’s just part of it. But the question “Is repentance a work?”, is valid and worth looking into. Here are some verses that seem to suggest repentance is a gift.
Romans 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Acts 5:31
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
I personally believe repentance is a gift, but I also think it’s important to understand what repentance is. My understanding of repentance, leading to salvation, is when we see “MY way” for what it truly is, and turn from it in total submission. I personally was saying “I can’t do this anymore”, and it was God that picked me back up. This is my understanding of what repentance is, just to start.
I went up and repeated the prayer before, then went out and was baptized, and was not saved. I thought I was a Christian, and really liked the idea of Jesus, but did not know Him. When I was saved it was 100% all God. I didn’t even know what happened to me until the next day, so there was no baptism, or speaking in tongues when I was truly saved. I did get baptized again AFTER I was saved as a sign of obedience and public proclamation I am born again.
In summary, I do believe repentance is a must, otherwise you still see “your way” as okay. This said, I believe repentance is a gift from God granted to us and not something we just “do”, nor can we take any credit for it, but the FIRST thing we are commanded to do as soon as Jesus ministry begins is to “repent”, so was Jesus wrong in saying that? Was John wrong in his message making straight the path for Him? We must turn from our way because “my way” only leads to death. Also, I do know and understand there are passages that suggest “we” repent. I was only sharing how He has brought me to understand it up to now. Thank you for reading and may His Spirit grant us all boldness to proclaim His name to this world that needs it, and to have these discussions and debates, but to do so knowing what bonds believers together and not let these things split us, or bring shame to His name. I pray this all in the mighty name of the King, Jesus. Amen.
E
Yeah yeah, Nice try.
What paul did was show them that they needed to repent. Because they were basing their faith on John, not Christ.
But you go right ahead and keep replacing the work of god in baptism with the work of some sinner. Then explain to God why ypu did this, and had other people follow you in this works based non gospel (non good news)
I still have hope you will see the light and repent. And will keep praying for this.
What paul did was show them that they needed to repent. Because they were basing their faith on John, not Christ.
But you go right ahead and keep replacing the work of god in baptism with the work of some sinner. Then explain to God why ypu did this, and had other people follow you in this works based non gospel (non good news)
I still have hope you will see the light and repent. And will keep praying for this.
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E
Only those baptised by the spirit are saved.
If yoru not baptized by the spirit. You have yet to have your sins washed, and have yet to be placed into union with Christ. Your still dead in your sin.
You may have some experience. But according to what your placing your faith in. I do not see it as being from God.
If yoru not baptized by the spirit. You have yet to have your sins washed, and have yet to be placed into union with Christ. Your still dead in your sin.
You may have some experience. But according to what your placing your faith in. I do not see it as being from God.
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E
Works based salvation is salvation by obedience, Your earning your right to be saved. And this is not grace
Your trying to earn salvation, then think because you have some experience it must be from God. You are in danger, deep danger. Not because of the experience, but because of your gospel
Your trying to earn salvation, then think because you have some experience it must be from God. You are in danger, deep danger. Not because of the experience, but because of your gospel
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E
I understand your spirit of error Stones.
How does God do this to everyone who comes to him? Does he not save them? Does he not gove them the spirit in their hearts as a guarantee? Does he not through the spirit baptize us into his death, his burial (the cross) his flesh, his body, and his church? Does he not spiritually circumcise all his children with the spiritual baptism performed by the HS?
The fact you question if God has the ability to do this, this worries me far more than you speaking in tongues.
How does God do this to everyone who comes to him? Does he not save them? Does he not gove them the spirit in their hearts as a guarantee? Does he not through the spirit baptize us into his death, his burial (the cross) his flesh, his body, and his church? Does he not spiritually circumcise all his children with the spiritual baptism performed by the HS?
The fact you question if God has the ability to do this, this worries me far more than you speaking in tongues.
E
Yes, Water baptism SYMBOLISES that LITERAL acts of God. (Baptism of the spirit)
Just like OT circumcision SYMBOLISED the fact that we would be spiritually circumcised (again through Baptism of the spirit)
Just like the sacrificial system SYMBOLISED the literal act of Christ as the lamb of God being slaughtered. And through baptism of the spirit, our being buried with him in baptism (not water)
The baptism of the holy spirit does not anoint us for minustry, It WASHES US and MAKES US CLEAN (titus 3: 5) which ALLOWS the HS himself to ANNOINT us and empowers us for the ministry
Once again sis, You have baptism and anointing all mixed up.
Why do you resist the this basic biblical truth?
Just like OT circumcision SYMBOLISED the fact that we would be spiritually circumcised (again through Baptism of the spirit)
Just like the sacrificial system SYMBOLISED the literal act of Christ as the lamb of God being slaughtered. And through baptism of the spirit, our being buried with him in baptism (not water)
The baptism of the holy spirit does not anoint us for minustry, It WASHES US and MAKES US CLEAN (titus 3: 5) which ALLOWS the HS himself to ANNOINT us and empowers us for the ministry
Once again sis, You have baptism and anointing all mixed up.
Why do you resist the this basic biblical truth?
7
7seasrekeyed said:
Yes, all believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13). The book of Acts is a transitional book. Prior to Pentecost, believers did not yet receive the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 7:38-39). After Pentecost, at times, the receiving of the Holy Spirit was delayed until the apostles laid hands on them (exception, not the rule - Acts 8:17; 19:6). This seems to have caused much confusion. The Mormons have turned laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit into the rule for today. My wife grew up in the RLDS church (similar to LDS) and they did the same.
ok. you say you do not see where the Holy Spirit is received as in 'Baptism' ...( John said Jesus would baptize with fire and this is what he meant by that. folks here seem to think it is obligatory to leave that out...inconvenient truth etc IMO'...) but actually you have it all figured out that folks were saved WITHOUT the Holy Spirit and where does that happen? ummm? never? you seem to agree that we are sealed with the Spirit of God upon conversion but you do not acknowledge that the Holy Spirit came a different way on the day of Pentecost to those gathered in the upper room. you dismiss it and say they had not received the Holy Spirit yet...which means they were not really saved
that doesn't sound just a little bit off color some how? they were saved. they believed in Jesus...what does the Bible say? seems to say that salvation is belief in Jesus (meaning all His work etc for us and the fact He is our High Priest etc etc) so you are actually saying no one saved in the Upper Room? they could not be without the Holy Spirit
what was the purpose of the Holy Spirit descending then? well if they were not saved, then the purpose of the Holy Spirit descending on those in the upper room must have HAD to have been to CONVICT them of sin so they would accept Jesus.
that is logic and scripture.
but that is not what happened. what happened was the fulfillment of the prophecy by John that Jesus would baptize with fire...a symbol of the Holy Spirit. people (well some anyway) confuse this baptism with a general experience everyone has but they do not all have this experience because many do not believe in it!
not to be rude or anything, but what does where you wife grew up, or whatever experience she or anyone else that is NOT scriptural, have to do with actual scripture?
witches and other variant demonic cults speak in tongues and that does what exactly? makes the Bible wrong somehow? (I realize that is not what you are saying, but you are not in accord with scripture. THEY WERE ALREADY SAVED IN THE UPPER ROOM. either that, or the Holy Spirit convicted them to be saved. LOGIC. no other way or explanation.
some of these excuses people relate sound more like the spies who gave a negative report to Moses
I don't believe that ALL Pentecostals believe they are elite, yet there are certain people within Pentecostal circles who speak in tongues and act superior to believers who do not speak in tongues and yet certain others within Pentecostal circles believe that unless you speak in tongues you will not be saved. I know former Pentecostals who have left certain Pentecostal churches because of that kind of nonsense (including my older brother) but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
oh gee that's nice. let's just keep talking about how folks do not follow scriptural instruction and make excuses. excuses are not reasons. I'm not Pentecostal nor am I Charismatic. my background is probably more anti-tongues and gifts then most since I was taught they are not only not for today but also not God. I wasn't looking for reasons or excuses. but I do have my own mind and I can read and the Bible said something different then what I was taught
as far as people acting superior goes, there are thousands of saved and satisfied cessationists who look down their noses at those who are not cessationist. have you seen some of the renderings in this forum addressed to those who speak in tongues? the arrogance and smugness is over the top and yet they think nothing of it. MacArthur leads the way there and is arrogance personified
please. let's not focus on what is wrong about Christians anywhere and everywhere cause they come in all sizes and beliefs
I don't see in scripture where baptism with the Holy Spirit happens under two separate occasions. I see where ALL believers are baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13) and certain believers are "filled" with the Holy Spirit to accomplish specific tasks, as we saw at Pentecost when they began to speak in other tongues and those listening heard them speak in their own language.
I just showed you in scripture where it is TWO DISTINCT things that occur regarding the Holy Spirit. but if you want to think that no one was saved, which is nonsense, then you will continue to say only one thing occurs. later on, I'm going to include more on this, but I have other things on the menu today too and better get to them
Do you mean "filled" with the Holy Spirit as they were in Acts 2:4?
do you really think that is what I mean? come on. really? we should be way past that. I certainly am.
I believe in miracles today, yet there are also counterfeit movements and deception. We need to be discerning.
well you can't be as discerning as you need to be without the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. which occurs either with salvation at times or later. it is not salvation. it is empowerment which is what the Bible states it is and Jesus said it was and John the Baptist said was coming. and is in fact here now and has been since Peter stood up and witnessed for his Savior
Becoming born again is a supernatural experience, along with living the Christian life, which is not without supernatural intervention, yet there are also counterfeit movements out there.
oh poof believe in a God you cannot see and His Son who shed His blood for you which you believe because someone wrote about it and you have EXPERIENCED the truth in your own life, but refuse what others have experienced and make excuses about discernment (the paradoxical implications there are staggering but I digress) and mumble something about supernatural intervention. (generic yous .. not meaning you only or even you personally)
sounds like a hit and miss to me. (yes a little of that sarcastic humor at the end there. but no ill intent. just a bit of a slap and hey ho wake up!)
Yes, all believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13). The book of Acts is a transitional book. Prior to Pentecost, believers did not yet receive the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 7:38-39). After Pentecost, at times, the receiving of the Holy Spirit was delayed until the apostles laid hands on them (exception, not the rule - Acts 8:17; 19:6). This seems to have caused much confusion. The Mormons have turned laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit into the rule for today. My wife grew up in the RLDS church (similar to LDS) and they did the same.
ok. you say you do not see where the Holy Spirit is received as in 'Baptism' ...( John said Jesus would baptize with fire and this is what he meant by that. folks here seem to think it is obligatory to leave that out...inconvenient truth etc IMO'...) but actually you have it all figured out that folks were saved WITHOUT the Holy Spirit and where does that happen? ummm? never? you seem to agree that we are sealed with the Spirit of God upon conversion but you do not acknowledge that the Holy Spirit came a different way on the day of Pentecost to those gathered in the upper room. you dismiss it and say they had not received the Holy Spirit yet...which means they were not really saved
that doesn't sound just a little bit off color some how? they were saved. they believed in Jesus...what does the Bible say? seems to say that salvation is belief in Jesus (meaning all His work etc for us and the fact He is our High Priest etc etc) so you are actually saying no one saved in the Upper Room? they could not be without the Holy Spirit
what was the purpose of the Holy Spirit descending then? well if they were not saved, then the purpose of the Holy Spirit descending on those in the upper room must have HAD to have been to CONVICT them of sin so they would accept Jesus.
that is logic and scripture.
but that is not what happened. what happened was the fulfillment of the prophecy by John that Jesus would baptize with fire...a symbol of the Holy Spirit. people (well some anyway) confuse this baptism with a general experience everyone has but they do not all have this experience because many do not believe in it!
not to be rude or anything, but what does where you wife grew up, or whatever experience she or anyone else that is NOT scriptural, have to do with actual scripture?
witches and other variant demonic cults speak in tongues and that does what exactly? makes the Bible wrong somehow? (I realize that is not what you are saying, but you are not in accord with scripture. THEY WERE ALREADY SAVED IN THE UPPER ROOM. either that, or the Holy Spirit convicted them to be saved. LOGIC. no other way or explanation.
some of these excuses people relate sound more like the spies who gave a negative report to Moses
I don't believe that ALL Pentecostals believe they are elite, yet there are certain people within Pentecostal circles who speak in tongues and act superior to believers who do not speak in tongues and yet certain others within Pentecostal circles believe that unless you speak in tongues you will not be saved. I know former Pentecostals who have left certain Pentecostal churches because of that kind of nonsense (including my older brother) but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
oh gee that's nice. let's just keep talking about how folks do not follow scriptural instruction and make excuses. excuses are not reasons. I'm not Pentecostal nor am I Charismatic. my background is probably more anti-tongues and gifts then most since I was taught they are not only not for today but also not God. I wasn't looking for reasons or excuses. but I do have my own mind and I can read and the Bible said something different then what I was taught
as far as people acting superior goes, there are thousands of saved and satisfied cessationists who look down their noses at those who are not cessationist. have you seen some of the renderings in this forum addressed to those who speak in tongues? the arrogance and smugness is over the top and yet they think nothing of it. MacArthur leads the way there and is arrogance personified
please. let's not focus on what is wrong about Christians anywhere and everywhere cause they come in all sizes and beliefs
I don't see in scripture where baptism with the Holy Spirit happens under two separate occasions. I see where ALL believers are baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13) and certain believers are "filled" with the Holy Spirit to accomplish specific tasks, as we saw at Pentecost when they began to speak in other tongues and those listening heard them speak in their own language.
I just showed you in scripture where it is TWO DISTINCT things that occur regarding the Holy Spirit. but if you want to think that no one was saved, which is nonsense, then you will continue to say only one thing occurs. later on, I'm going to include more on this, but I have other things on the menu today too and better get to them
Do you mean "filled" with the Holy Spirit as they were in Acts 2:4?
do you really think that is what I mean? come on. really? we should be way past that. I certainly am.
I believe in miracles today, yet there are also counterfeit movements and deception. We need to be discerning.
well you can't be as discerning as you need to be without the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. which occurs either with salvation at times or later. it is not salvation. it is empowerment which is what the Bible states it is and Jesus said it was and John the Baptist said was coming. and is in fact here now and has been since Peter stood up and witnessed for his Savior
Becoming born again is a supernatural experience, along with living the Christian life, which is not without supernatural intervention, yet there are also counterfeit movements out there.
oh poof
believe in a God you cannot see and His Son who shed His blood for you which you believe because someone wrote about it and you have EXPERIENCED the truth in your own life, but refuse what others have experienced and make excuses about discernment (the paradoxical implications there are staggering but I digress) and mumble something about supernatural intervention. (generic yous .. not meaning you only or even you personally)sounds like a hit and miss to me. (yes a little of that sarcastic humor at the end there. but no ill intent. just a bit of a slap and hey ho wake up!)
Waggles
I have heard that the fellowship that speaks truth powerfully will always be one strongly opposed by the religious.
If you read Waggles post closely, he is not saying that faith in the Cross and blood sacrifice isn’t enough for salvation as you all are accusing him of.
But salvation is all inclusive of the experiences of the new birth, the baptism of Holy Spirit, and the fullness. Not the doctrines but the results of believing the full gospel.
That this was the beginning of the churches of God, or the living, breathing, lifed in Spirit, and ministering through gifts of Holy Spirit body of our Lord Jesus Christ, to the end of our faith....the high calling of God in Christ Jesus that Paul speaks about. That by the way would be another divisive subject, and if you have trouble with Pentecost, your head will explode when realizing what Paul is actually meaning.
Jesus said there would be division, and even in our own house. Much suffering too and possible loss.
So stop accusing Waggles of saying you all aren’t saved for heaven.
I have heard that the fellowship that speaks truth powerfully will always be one strongly opposed by the religious.
If you read Waggles post closely, he is not saying that faith in the Cross and blood sacrifice isn’t enough for salvation as you all are accusing him of.
But salvation is all inclusive of the experiences of the new birth, the baptism of Holy Spirit, and the fullness. Not the doctrines but the results of believing the full gospel.
That this was the beginning of the churches of God, or the living, breathing, lifed in Spirit, and ministering through gifts of Holy Spirit body of our Lord Jesus Christ, to the end of our faith....the high calling of God in Christ Jesus that Paul speaks about. That by the way would be another divisive subject, and if you have trouble with Pentecost, your head will explode when realizing what Paul is actually meaning.
Jesus said there would be division, and even in our own house. Much suffering too and possible loss.
So stop accusing Waggles of saying you all aren’t saved for heaven.
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