"... and the Word was GOd. ..."

[jaybird88]

Hi again Jaybird88, here is part 2 of 3. Cont............from here.

What was concealed in the OT is often revealed in the NT. Moses, Elijah and Isaiah lived and died prior to the Incarnation however, so what they knew/understood about the Trinity would have been very limited at best.

I believe you are correct about no one calling the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit, "They", rather than "Him/He", but that's because They (the Godhead) are addressed as the Individuals/Persons they are in the Bible. One God eternally existing as three Persons = the Trinity or Godhead.

~Deut

when people use this argument they dont realize the can of worms it opens, you can pretty much add what ever teaching you want and just claim it wasnt revealed in scripture. this is one of the very reasons why we have scripture, so we can confirm every teaching is biblical and not get bamboozled by someone selling snake oil. this is exactly what the Berean Jews did with Paul, they confirmed His teachings in scripture, BTW the scriptures in question would have been the Hebrew bible, no NT at that time.

 

[Noose]

Excuse me but Jesus Christ is "NOT" the person of the Holy Spirit. You also just stated, "These are not two distinct persons, just one person who was to go and come back."

Then you come up with this "jibberish" about "If Jesus goes, and if Jesus doesn't go the advocate doesn't come." Ok, explain 1 John 2:1, "My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, "WE HAVE AN ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER, JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUSNESS."

So noose, you just claimed "if Jesus doesn't go the advocate doesn't come" so how come Jesus is gone but yet the Apostle John tells us He is our Advocate with the Father? I don't see any mention of the Holy Spirit in this verse, do you?

Think of it this way? If Jesus is the Holy Spirit, (and btw according to oneness pentecostal teachings) the one person of Jesus is the God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit there would be no need to "DISTINGUISH" them as the Bible clearly does. In other words, why bother making the distinction if there is no distinction to be made? How do you explain this noose?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I think the verse you have quoted supports my view- Jesus is indeed the Father, the son and the Holy spirit (advocate).
The idea that Jesus had to go for the advocate to come, is not my personal idea, i just quoted Jesus and made my case on it.

 

[Noose]

Hi again Noose, we will be like God in many ways when we have glorified bodies in the eternity to come. We will be eternal, like He is, we will share in His holiness and be righteous like He is, but we won't be omnipotent or omnipresent or omniscient, or somehow become life itself like He is. We will glorify, worship, adore and enjoy Him forever in His presence in perfect peace and happiness, free from sin, but we will not become "gods" ourselves with His Divine nature & attributes, and the abilities that He alone possesses .. Isaiah 43:10b.

--David
p.s. - the "many people" who you refer to above, who hold to the Trinity doctrine, amounts to the whole of the Christian church. We battle among ourselves about many, many things (to one degree or another) as I'm sure you are well-aware, but the Trinity is literally settled theology .. for ~ALL~ of us, Protestants, Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, etc. As a result, there is no controversy among us whatsoever in regard to the nature of the Godhead.

Rarely do we all speak with one voice about anything in the Christian faith like we do concerning this doctrine/the triune nature of God, and since we do, I think it would behoove anyone who disagrees with us to stop and thoroughly reconsider/reexamine what we have been saying and teaching (and reexamining/reconfirming ourselves) again and again and again, from generation to generation, from theologian to theologian, and that for millennia now.

Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Psalm 102:25In the beginning You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26They will perish, but You remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing You will change them, and they will be passed on. 27But You remain the same, and Your years will never end.

Only God/the word of God lives forever, the idea that people will be transformed separately, be like Him and live forever is a misunderstanding, it is the word of God in them that will live forever.

Pro 4:4 he taught me and said,“Let your heart lay hold of my words; keep my commandments and you will live.

At the end of it all, only God is eternal.

My original point was; The spirit of man was originally part of God (what God breathed into him) and God created the whole universe through the mind of a man:

Isa 51:15For I am the LORD your God who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—the LORD of Hosts is His name. 16I have put My words in your mouth,and covered you in the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, “You are My people.”

It is not a future thing, it is from before the beginning that the Father and son were one and the subordinate authority of the son is what came to be a man. Same principle with a man and a woman- God created him male and female (meaning that within the man, there was the authority of the man and a subordinate authority of a woman and the two are one). This is what it means to be in the image of God.

When man lost the truth (corrupted mind), the whole universe which was established in the mind of men also decays or passes away.
God came to correct it. He took the subordinate authority to reconcile everything back to Himself. The reason Rom 8 says the whole universe is waiting for the sons of God to be revealed.
By reconciling us back to Him, it goes full circle and we go back to being part of God (the subordinate authority of the son), that's why He is our Father and the Father and son are One.

 

[Waggles]

and God created the whole universe through the mind of a man:

How do you know this??
Were you a witness to how Jesus created all matter out of nothing?
So our God and Redeemer is Megamind?

 

[Noose]

How do you know this??
Were you a witness to how Jesus created all matter out of nothing?
So our God and Redeemer is Megamind?

It is in the bible.

 

[bluto]

I think the verse you have quoted supports my view- Jesus is indeed the Father, the son and the Holy spirit (advocate).
The idea that Jesus had to go for the advocate to come, is not my personal idea, i just quoted Jesus and made my case on it.

Nonsense noose! You got caught because you do not know your Bible. The verse I quoted "CLEARLY" contradicts your position. So what do you do, turn it around and blame me, or should I say blame the scriptures that they really support your position.

The verses explicitly say Jesus Christ is our advocate "WITH" the Father. Common sense (which you apparently do not have) reasons that if your "with" somebody you can't be that somebody. This is also true at John 1:1 where the "Word/Logos" is "with God and is God, i.e Jesus Christ.

And, you know what? I did not even quote the second verse which is 1 John 1:2, "and He Himself is the proptiation for our sins etc. Himself means exactly that "Himself" as in there are no others. Besides, (and again your not using common sense) because if Jesus Christ Himself is the proptiation of our sins how can He be God the Father, or for that matter God the Holy Spirit? The Father nor the Holy Spirit died for our sins.

My last question is this? Who is it that teaches you this stuff and why are you going along with it when the Bible clearly teaches the exact opposite of what you believe is true. Good grief learn your Bible before you ask questions and post things that show you don't know your Bible but shows you are lost. Oneness Pentecostalism is a big time "cult" that mixies truth with error ship wrecking the faith of many.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Noose]

Nonsense noose! You got caught because you do not know your Bible. The verse I quoted "CLEARLY" contradicts your position. So what do you do, turn it around and blame me, or should I say blame the scriptures that they really support your position.

The verses explicitly say Jesus Christ is our advocate "WITH" the Father. Common sense (which you apparently do not have) reasons that if your "with" somebody you can't be that somebody. This is also true at John 1:1 where the "Word/Logos" is "with God and is God, i.e Jesus Christ.

And, you know what? I did not even quote the second verse which is 1 John 1:2, "and He Himself is the proptiation for our sins etc. Himself means exactly that "Himself" as in there are no others. Besides, (and again your not using common sense) because if Jesus Christ Himself is the proptiation of our sins how can He be God the Father, or for that matter God the Holy Spirit? The Father nor the Holy Spirit died for our sins.

My last question is this? Who is it that teaches you this stuff and why are you going along with it when the Bible clearly teaches the exact opposite of what you believe is true. Good grief learn your Bible before you ask questions and post things that show you don't know your Bible but shows you are lost. Oneness Pentecostalism is a big time "cult" that mixies truth with error ship wrecking the faith of many.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

1. I'm not a Oneness Pentecostal.

2. You were dwelling on the Father part and i was dwelling on the advocate part. My point was, if Jesus is our advocate and the Holy spirit is also our advocate and we only have one advocate, then ......

3. The Father and the son are authorities of God. The son is the authority of God while on Earth and the Father is the authority of God in heaven. So Jesus while on Earth (having the authority of the son), would always praise/pray to the authority of the Father because the authority of the Father is greater. But when Jesus ascendeth to heaven, He acquires a new name (Authority), that of the Father whilst the disciples on Earth acquire a new name (Authority), that of the son.

The reason Jesus said:

John 16:23 In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

It doesn't mean that the disciples had not asked Jesus anything until that point, of course they had asked Him so many things but Jesus is referring to authorities here. Until He ascends, come and indwell them as the Holy spirit, adopt them as His sons and He their Father, then on that day He will fulfill whatever they ask of their Father. Simple.


John 16:
12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. 14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you.15Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.

16In a little while you will see Me no more, and then after a little while you will see Me.”a

John 14:13And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.


See, very simple.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

Nonsense noose! You got caught because you do not know your Bible.

God said let there be light and there was light, so if you know your Bible then what light did God see when he saw the light?

So did you build your house upon the word of the LORD or did the LORD build your house upon your word?

Were you a witness to how Jesus created all matter out of nothing?

Who said the heaven and earth were created out of nothing?

Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit, or rather the Latin expression the "nothing comes from nothing" is rooted in the parable about fruit of the tree. Hence a good tree brings forth good fruit, and evil tree brings forth evil fruit, a good tree cannot bear evil fruit and and evil tree cannot bear good fruit. So the precepts of the parable hold that the A = A and B = B or A ≠ B and B ≠ A.

So if the one and only eternal tree was to bear fruit then what kind of fruit would it be, it would be the only fruit in which the fruit is the seed of immortality.

 

[Waggles]

Who said the heaven and earth were created out of nothing?

God does … what do you think Jesus used, play dough ??

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:1
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God,
so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
Hebrews 11:3
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.
Psalm 33:6
Let them praise the name of the LORD! For he commanded and they were created.
Psalm 148:5

 

[bluto]

God said let there be light and there was light, so if you know your Bible then what light did God see when he saw the light?

So did you build your house upon the word of the LORD or did the LORD build your house upon your word?



Who said the heaven and earth were created out of nothing?

Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit, or rather the Latin expression the "nothing comes from nothing" is rooted in the parable about fruit of the tree. Hence a good tree brings forth good fruit, and evil tree brings forth evil fruit, a good tree cannot bear evil fruit and and evil tree cannot bear good fruit. So the precepts of the parable hold that the A = A and B = B or A ≠ B and B ≠ A.

So if the one and only eternal tree was to bear fruit then what kind of fruit would it be, it would be the only fruit in which the fruit is the seed of immortality.

So what's your complaint in what I said to noose unoiamarah? And btw, everything that was created was "ex-nihilo," out of nothing. Now, if you have a better explanation of how the heavens, earth and other beings (including us) came into existence I would love to hear it.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[UnoiAmarah]

God does … what do you think Jesus used, play dough ??

God does? That is simply your opinion unless you are suggesting that you speak for God. If the latter then where is your partner since Jesus sent his disciples out in twos, even Paul was sent out with Barnabas. But if the premise of your argument is that there was nothing before the beginning of the universe then the substance of your argument is that nothing existed, representing that God is nothing since there was nothing before the beginning of the physical world.

While I don't think that is what you really mean to convey yet the term nothing, by definition as I understand it to be means a void, being absent of anything. While I am also aware of the teaching of nothingness which infers the absence of life or any living thing.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:1

So what exactly are these 'heavens?

Are they large expanses of nothing? How can you tell where the one expanse of nothing ends and the other expanse of nothing begins?

When Jesus said to those men who believed the writings of the OT that they were of their father the devil who was a murderer from the beginning who abode not in the truth, because there was no truth in him do you think he was referring to 'the beginning' in Genesis 1:1 since continues by saying the lusts of their father they will do. Feel free to speak your mind on which personage of the trinity that you believe created the heaven and the earth.

By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God,
so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
Hebrews 11:3

So you believe that God the Son and not God the Father created the universe out of nothing, correct? The reason I ask is the are quite a few that hold that the light in Genesis 1:3 that the God the Father saw was God the Son, but if God the Son created the heaven and the earth then it would be God the Son who said let there be light.

However, the scripture clearly points out that what is seen was made out of things not seen, it doesn't say that things which are seen were made of things which did not exist.

By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.
Psalm 33:6

Let them praise the name of the LORD! For he commanded and they were created.
Psalm 148:5

Nothing in either scriptures suggests that the heavens were made from nothing. However, the heavens in the first verse of your quotes was referring unto the expanse called heaven in Genesis 1:1 and the expanse called heaven in Genesis 1:8. The reason Bible such as the one are quoting from use referring unto heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1 is due to copyright requirements and has nothing to do with translation errors on part of the writings which they are being rewritten from.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think the verse you have quoted supports my view- Jesus is indeed the Father, the son and the Holy spirit (advocate).

Now that is really sticking your head in a noose. Why do you have a problem with believing that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are THREE distinct divine Persons (Beings), yet one God?

 

[Noose]

Now that is really sticking your head in a noose. Why do you have a problem with believing that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are THREE distinct divine Persons (Beings), yet one God?

Coz there's an obvious problem believing things that don't/can not exist. If you told me God is a square-circle, i would have the same problem believing.

Now, a simple question and i need your sincere, simple answer (Yes or No would do):

Q1. Is Jesus one person and one God by Himself?
Q2. Is the Holy spirit one person and one God by Himself?
Q3. Is the Father one person and one God by Himself?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Now, a simple question and i need your sincere, simple answer (Yes or No would do):

Q1. Is Jesus one person and one God by Himself?
Q2. Is the Holy spirit one person and one God by Himself?
Q3. Is the Father one person and one God by Himself?

All trick questions. Here is the way the questions should be worded:
Is Jesus one person? YES
Is the Holy spirit one person? YES
Is the Father one person? YES
Are they all God? YES
Is there one God with all three divine Persons? YES
So how do we explain this Mystery? WE DO NOT "EXPLAIN". WE BELIEVE IT BECAUSE IT IS TRUE

 

[bluto]

Coz there's an obvious problem believing things that don't/can not exist. If you told me God is a square-circle, i would have the same problem believing.

Now, a simple question and i need your sincere, simple answer (Yes or No would do):

Q1. Is Jesus one person and one God by Himself?
Q2. Is the Holy spirit one person and one God by Himself?
Q3. Is the Father one person and one God by Himself?

Your questions are ridiculous noose because they imply that the trinity is comprised of 3 gods. Your equating 3 persons as if there are 3 gods. Plus the fact that your statement about God is a square-circle is not analagous to your three questions.

There are some things that is impossible for God. For one God cannot lie. Another law of logic is that it cannot be a cold, hot, dry and rainy day all at the same time and in the same place.

Let's see if you agree with the following. In the Bible is God the Father identifed as God? Answer yes. In the Bible is Jesus Christ identified as God? The answer is yes. And in the Bible is the Holy Spirit identified as God? Yes again.

So you have three "PERSONS" in the Bible clearly identified as God so how is it the Bible teaches there is only one God? Or in what respect are they one God? Do you know the answer?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Waggles]

How many of us have been to the third Heaven and actually seen God ??
Have any of us created a universe or a living planet?
Spend all your time with angels and fantastic winged creatures in the spirit realm?

 

[UnoiAmarah]

So what's your complaint in what I said to noose unoiamarah?

No complaint, was just trying to give you a opportunity to demonstrate your knowledge of the Bible by giving you a couple of simple questions to choose from.

Now, if you have a better explanation of how the heavens, earth and other beings (including us) came into existence I would love to hear it.

So what do you have in your hand?

So you have three "PERSONS" in the Bible clearly identified as God so how is it the Bible teaches there is only one God?

You ever read the parable of Isaiah in Chapter 29...

 

[bluto]

No complaint, was just trying to give you a opportunity to demonstrate your knowledge of the Bible by giving you a couple of simple questions to choose from.



So what do you have in your hand?



You ever read the parable of Isaiah in Chapter 29...

I have in my hand my computer mouse. I also said this: "So you have three "PERSONS" in the Bible clearly identified as God so how is it the Bible teaches there is only one God? Or in other words in what respect is God one? So what is the parable of Isaiah 29 that has a bearing on my question? Btw amarah, do you personally believe Jesus Christ is God?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Noose]

All trick questions. Here is the way the questions should be worded:
Is Jesus one person? YES
Is the Holy spirit one person? YES
Is the Father one person? YES
Are they all God? YES
Is there one God with all three divine Persons? YES
So how do we explain this Mystery? WE DO NOT "EXPLAIN". WE BELIEVE IT BECAUSE IT IS TRUE

This is what happens when you insist something is a square-circle; when asked to explain, you can not, you rephrase the question - you want to explain a square separately and circle separately because they do exist, a square - circle doesn't, so can not be explained.

But God exists and can be explained in simple understandable terms that He Himself has explained.
Non of these is a trick question and the question about the nature of God should not be a trick question to anyone that believes.

1.Trinity being a mystery is a cop out; a line of excuse that can be used by anyone. I can come tomorrow and say 'God is fire, it is a mystery which i can not explain, i just believe it because it is true'.

2.If you believe something is a mystery, you can not tell someone else that they are wrong in their explanation because they are not you, especially when they do not believe it is mysterious but they do believe they can explain it.

3. Starting an explanation of how God is three in one and ending up with 'God is mysterious' is contradictory.

4. Jesus is one person and one God by himself. If you ever find yourself having problems with that, don't claim that the truth is in you.

 

[Noose]

Your questions are ridiculous noose because they imply that the trinity is comprised of 3 gods. Your equating 3 persons as if there are 3 gods. Plus the fact that your statement about God is a square-circle is not analagous to your three questions.

Ok, let me rephrase my question:

Q. Is Jesus one person and one God by Himself?
If you ever find yourself having problems answering this simple question then you can not claim the truth is in you.

Let's see if you agree with the following.
In the Bible is God the Father identifed as God? Answer yes. In the Bible is Jesus Christ identified as God? The answer is yes. And in the Bible is the Holy Spirit identified as God? Yes again.

Yes i agree

So you have three "PERSONS" in the Bible clearly identified as God so how is it the Bible teaches there is only one God? Or in what respect are they one God? Do you know the answer?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Nope. Three authorities, one person.

Isa 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Name= Authority

The child (Not children), will have these authorities:

Wonderful Counselor = Holy spirit
Mighty God = Mighty God
Everlasting Father = Father
Prince of Peace = Son