"... and the Word was GOd. ..."

[NWL]

Is 48:
“Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
[c]Have sent Me.”
17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
19 Your descendants also would have been like the sand,
And the offspring of your body like the grains of sand;
His name would not have been cut off
Nor destroyed from before Me.”

Can you please explain who this person, who was sent by the father and the spirit, the redeemer of Israel is?

The mistake you make is applying what is said by the person speaking in v17 ("Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer")as the identity of the person speaking in v16 ("And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me"). It is Isaiah who says the words "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit", you can tell this by the usage of quotation marks "" used in most modern English translations today.

New International Version
"Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there." And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit.

Many scholars themselves state the speaker is not YHWH but instead state the words being spoken are that of Isaiah, some translations even insert the name Isaiah to make this point clear:

Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version
"...'Come here and listen to me! from the beginning, I spoke clearly, so that people could know what I said.' Then Isaiah said, `Now the Lord [Jehovah] my master sends me and his Spirit to tell you these things.'..."

 

[NWL]

But but but Jesus is our Father and our God. .

You believe Jesus is the Father?

He is our Father because He is our God

This reasoning is circular.

 

[Noose]

You believe Jesus is the Father?



This reasoning is circular.

Why?

 

[posthuman]

I don't know why they changed it. And Im not going to everyones profile to check. So if you want to be called by the correct gender you better let me know which you are.

Probably it just wasn't an option in the new forum software

 

[posthuman]

you can tell this by the usage of quotation marks "" used in most modern English translations today.

There are no quotation marks in the original, no punctuation at all. So the only thing you can tell by someone putting quotation marks 3,000 years after the fact is that someone interpreted it a certain way and added punctuation to indicate the way they interpreted it.

i don't think we should ever assume that commas, quote marks, parenthesis etc are correct.

 

[Deade]

Many scholars themselves state the speaker is not YHWH but instead state the words being spoken are that of Isaiah, some translations even insert the name Isaiah to make this point clear:

Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version
"...'Come here and listen to me! from the beginning, I spoke clearly, so that people could know what I said.' Then Isaiah said, `Now the Lord [Jehovah] my master sends me and his Spirit to tell you these things.'..."

I don't know what you are peddling here but your quote is not the Easy-to-Read version. Here it is for you:

ERV: Isaiah 48:16, 17 "Come here and listen to me! I was there when Babylon began as a nation. And from the beginning, I spoke clearly so that people could know what I said.” Now, the Lord God sends me and his Spirit to tell you these things. The Lord, the Savior, the Holy One of Israel, says, “I am the Lord your God. I teach you for your own good. I lead you in the way you should go." Nobody named Isaiah there.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The mistake you make is applying what is said by the person speaking in v17 ("Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer")as the identity of the person speaking in v16 ("And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me"). It is Isaiah who says the words "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit", you can tell this by the usage of quotation marks "" used in most modern English translations today.

New International Version
"Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there." And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit.

Many scholars themselves state the speaker is not YHWH but instead state the words being spoken are that of Isaiah, some translations even insert the name Isaiah to make this point clear:

Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version
"...'Come here and listen to me! from the beginning, I spoke clearly, so that people could know what I said.' Then Isaiah said, `Now the Lord [Jehovah] my master sends me and his Spirit to tell you these things.'..."

There is a major flaw in your thinking

Isaiah was not there in the beginning.

Look closely

“Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it (the beginning) was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”

The prophet was not there in the beginning, Whether it be the begining of creation, or the beginning of the nation of Israel. The prophet was not there. In fact if you look up the word translated beginning in Hebrew, You will be quite surprised. And then you would also know. That the prophet writing these words could not be the person being spoken of as being sent by God. It speaks of the head, The prophet is not the head of anything, nor was he the beginning of anything having to do with Israel. Or the world.

 

[NWL]

Why?

To say Jesus is the Father because he is God is the same as saying Jesus is God since he's our Father.

Again, do you believe Jesus is the Father?

 

[NWL]

There are no quotation marks in the original, no punctuation at all. So the only thing you can tell by someone putting quotation marks 3,000 years after the fact is that someone interpreted it a certain way and added punctuation to indicate the way they interpreted it.

i don't think we should ever assume that commas, quote marks, parenthesis etc are correct.

Good, that's the very reason why I covered myself by saying the usage was dependent based on " most modern English translations today", I'm well aware of the fact you just highlighted hence by language.

The fact remains, the best and brightest readers of the original today state it was Isaiah speaking, older translations or translations that leave out the punctuation allow the everyday reader to choose, resulting in arguments such as the one eternally grateful brought up.

 

[NWL]

There is a major flaw in your thinking

Isaiah was not there in the beginning.

Look closely

“Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it (the beginning) was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”

The prophet was not there in the beginning, Whether it be the begining of creation, or the beginning of the nation of Israel. The prophet was not there. In fact if you look up the word translated beginning in Hebrew, You will be quite surprised. And then you would also know. That the prophet writing these words could not be the person being spoken of as being sent by God. It speaks of the head, The prophet is not the head of anything, nor was he the beginning of anything having to do with Israel. Or the world.

You obviously did not grasp what I was trying to tell you in my last reply. Not all translations read the same way as the translation you have used. Your translation has the same speaker in v16 through to v20 and beyond. Other translations do not read in such a way as I will show as it is down to each translator to choose who the speaker is. One thing we do know is Isaiah the writer often switches from one speaker to another speaker without making it known to the reader that he has done so.

New International Version - "Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there." And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit.
New Living Translation - Come closer, and listen to this. From the beginning I have told you plainly what would happen.” And now the Sovereign LORD and his Spirit have sent me with this message.
English Standard Version - Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.” And now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit.
Berean Study Bible - Come near to Me and listen to this: “From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time it happened, I was there.” And now the Lord GOD has sent me, accompanied by His Spirit.
New American Standard Bible - "Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit."
King James Bible - Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Christian Standard Bible - Approach me and listen to this. From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time anything existed, I was there." And now the Lord GOD has sent me and his Spirit.
Contemporary English Version - Come closer and listen! I have never kept secret the things I have said, and I was here before time began. By the power of his Spirit the LORD God has sent me
Good News Translation - "Now come close to me and hear what I say. From the beginning I have spoken openly and have always made my words come true." (Now the Sovereign LORD has given me his power and sent me.)
Holman Christian Standard Bible - Approach Me and listen to this. From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time anything existed, I was there." And now the Lord GOD has sent me and His Spirit.
International Standard Version - Draw near to me, and listen to this: 'From the beginning I haven't spoken in secret; at the time it happened, I was there.' And now the LORD God, and his Spirit, has sent me.
NET Bible - Approach me! Listen to this! From the very first I have not spoken in secret; when it happens, I am there." So now, the sovereign LORD has sent me, accompanied by his spirit.

Out of the translation above all the one in blue are ones, where the translator has decided the speaker in v16b of the verse, is not the same speaker as the one speaking in v16a of the verse, this is indicated by the quotation marks. The ones in green are translation where either there are no quotation marks at all or where the translator believes the same one is speaking through and through v16.

So when you say "There is a major flaw in your thinking Isaiah was not there in the beginning" there is no flaw, the only flaw there is , is that you believe despite me saying to the contrary that the speaker in v16a is the same as the speaker in v16b, when I do not believe it is. I believe YHWH said "Come near me and listen to this: "From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there" in v16a and then Isaiah starts speaking in v16b saying "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit".

Moreover when God says "From the beginning" he is not talking about the same beginning as Gen 1:1 but rather as the context shows the beginning of when he started speaking with Isaiah, "From the beginning I have spoken openly and have always made my words come true".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You obviously did not grasp what I was trying to tell you in my last reply. Not all translations read the same way as the translation you have used. Your translation has the same speaker in v16 through to v20 and beyond. Other translations do not read in such a way as I will show as it is down to each translator to choose who the speaker is. One thing we do know is Isaiah the writer often switches from one speaker to another speaker without making it known to the reader that he has done so.

New International Version - "Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there." And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit.
New Living Translation - Come closer, and listen to this. From the beginning I have told you plainly what would happen.” And now the Sovereign LORD and his Spirit have sent me with this message.
English Standard Version - Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.” And now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit.
Berean Study Bible - Come near to Me and listen to this: “From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time it happened, I was there.” And now the Lord GOD has sent me, accompanied by His Spirit.
New American Standard Bible - "Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit."
King James Bible - Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Christian Standard Bible - Approach me and listen to this. From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time anything existed, I was there." And now the Lord GOD has sent me and his Spirit.
Contemporary English Version - Come closer and listen! I have never kept secret the things I have said, and I was here before time began. By the power of his Spirit the LORD God has sent me
Good News Translation - "Now come close to me and hear what I say. From the beginning I have spoken openly and have always made my words come true." (Now the Sovereign LORD has given me his power and sent me.)
Holman Christian Standard Bible - Approach Me and listen to this. From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time anything existed, I was there." And now the Lord GOD has sent me and His Spirit.
International Standard Version - Draw near to me, and listen to this: 'From the beginning I haven't spoken in secret; at the time it happened, I was there.' And now the LORD God, and his Spirit, has sent me.
NET Bible - Approach me! Listen to this! From the very first I have not spoken in secret; when it happens, I am there." So now, the sovereign LORD has sent me, accompanied by his spirit.

Out of the translation above all the one in blue are ones, where the translator has decided the speaker in v16b of the verse, is not the same speaker as the one speaking in v16a of the verse, this is indicated by the quotation marks. The ones in green are translation where either there are no quotation marks at all or where the translator believes the same one is speaking through and through v16.

So when you say "There is a major flaw in your thinking Isaiah was not there in the beginning" there is no flaw, the only flaw there is , is that you believe despite me saying to the contrary that the speaker in v16a is the same as the speaker in v16b, when I do not believe it is. I believe YHWH said "Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there" in v16a and then Isaiah starts speaking in v16b saying "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit".

You evidently have not grasped the library of resources which I have

What I did was look up in the original languages what was actually written, Instead of relying on translations based on the english text.

The word announcement is not in the original text by the way. That was added

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To say Jesus is the Father because he is God is the same as saying Jesus is God since he's our Father.

Again, do you believe Jesus is the Father?

No. He is not the father

He is the son. And has been since BEFORE the beginning of time.

 

[NWL]

You evidently have not grasped the library of resources which I have

What I did was look up in the original languages what was actually written, Instead of relying on translations based on the english text.

The word announcement is not in the original text by the way. That was added

If you had a library of resources and looked up the original languages then why when citing the passage have you done so where it clearly shows the quotations? (Your text below)

14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
[c]Have sent Me.”

Anyway, you have my answer, it was Isaiah speaking in v16b of the verse, what do you intend to do with my answer now?

The word announcement is not in the original text by the way. That was added

None of the words I have used are in the orginal, if we were using only the orignal we would only be seeing Greek or Hebrew on the screen, the word "beginning" is neither in the oringal since the word beginning is a translation of the Hebrew word "meros". Translators translate with the believed meaning of the words and text, not word for word, hence why so many differ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you had a library of resources and looked up the original languages then why when citing the passage have you done so where it clearly shows the quotations? (Your text below)

14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
[c]Have sent Me.”

Anyway, you have my answer, it was Isaiah speaking in v16b of the verse, what do you intend to do with my answer now?

1. As you have been informed already, there was no quotations in the hebrew language, they were added by whoever interpreted the passage, Based on what he thought the passage should say.
2. I showed you what the word translated beginning meant, And also showed according to the language how it could NOT be talking about the prophet. It could only be talking about god.
3. I already showed you what I intended to do. I rejecty your interpretation of the passage based on the original language text.

The question is, What are you going to do with the original language text? Which refutes your view?

None of the words I have used are in the orginal, if we were using only the orignal we would only be seeing Greek or Hebrew on the screen, the word "beginning" is neither in the oringal since the word beginning is a translation of the Hebrew word "meros". Translators translate with the believed meaning of the words and text, not word for word, hence why so many differ.

I gave you the defenition of the word. It means the begining or the head,

Here you go

The specifics of the meaning of *raʾš- in the Sem. languages are remarkably uniform. The lit. use for “head” is joined by fig. usages: in the social sense for “superior, leader,” the local sense for “peak, point,” the temporal sense for “beginning,” or the valuative sense for “the best.”
Arab. and Eth. formed separate forms for “superior, leader” that are used in addition to raʾs or reʾes, resp.: Arab. raʾīs and Eth. raʾas/reʾūs; only Arab. and Eth. derived the verb raʾasa with the chief meaning “to be superior, leader” from the nom. root.

All of these possible translations can only point to Christ.

The prophet did not break mid sentence, to be writting down the words of God. To change to words from himself. And immediately return to be writing down the words of God. That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[crossnote]

There is nothing wrong with the screen name of the OP. I wouldn't want to be a member of such a forum as the one that you are referring to as the leadership seems to be a tad anal.

Hmm, I've had too many 'Prophet Bob's' on forums prophecy curses on me to know better than to believe every 'internet' title. IOW, They are meaningless since anyone can claim anything under the cloak of anonymity lol.

 

[NWL]

1. As you have been informed already, there was no quotations in the hebrew language, they were added by whoever interpreted the passage, Based on what he thought the passage should say.
2. I showed you what the word translated beginning meant, And also showed according to the language how it could NOT be talking about the prophet. It could only be talking about god.
3. I already showed you what I intended to do. I rejecty your interpretation of the passage based on the original language text.

The question is, What are you going to do with the original language text? Which refutes your view?

The original doesn't refute my view because it doesn't identify who the speaker is. Again you assume v16b is YHWH speaking, nowhere does the text say this, thus your claim that it is, is an assumption. Moreover, you are the one who raised this whole issue, therefore the burden of proof lays on you to further your claim instead of leaving it up to me to press the matter more.

I gave you the defenition of the word. It means the beginning or the head,

Here you go

The specifics of the meaning of *raʾš- in the Sem. languages are remarkably uniform. The lit. use for “head” is joined by fig. usages: in the social sense for “superior, leader,” the local sense for “peak, point,” the temporal sense for “beginning,” or the valuative sense for “the best.”
Arab. and Eth. formed separate forms for “superior, leader” that are used in addition to raʾs or reʾes, resp.: Arab. raʾīs and Eth. raʾas/reʾūs; only Arab. and Eth. derived the verb raʾasa with the chief meaning “to be superior, leader” from the nom. root.

All of these possible translations can only point to Christ.

The prophet did not break mid sentence, to be writting down the words of God. To change to words from himself. And immediately return to be writing down the words of God. That makes no sense whatsoever.

I have no issue with the word meaning "beginning" when translated, I never have.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The original doesn't refute my view because it doesn't identify who the speaker is.

Actually yes it does. It identified him as the creator. The first and last. The god of Israel. And th eone who gave the commands, the one who was their at the beginning

Your trying to insert a pause in what was spoken to force your belief into the passage, that is not a good idea.

Again you assume v16b is YHWH speaking, nowhere does the text say this, thus your claim that it is, is an assumption. Moreover, you are the one who raised this whole issue, therefore the burden of proof lays on you to further your claim instead of leaving it up to me to press the matter more.

I do not assume anything, I just continue wih the flow of the text. YHWH did not stop speaking. The prophet wrote what YHWH was saying, It was him who was telling the people to listen to Him.

Your the one assuming things not found in the text or even hinted at.

I have no issue with the word meaning "beginning" when translated, I never have.

You must have, Because if you did not you would admit it could NOT pertain to the prophet, it could ONLY relate to the lord God of Israel.

 

[Melach]

modalistic monarchianism aka sabellianism. A very old heresy. Now known as oneness Pentecostalism.

I never enter the confines of any so-called pentecostal church. I immediately start preaching and get run out on a rail.

dear friend do you know that most pentecostals are trinitarians?

 

[NWL]

Actually yes it does. It identified him as the creator. The first and last. The god of Israel. And th eone who gave the commands, the one who was their at the beginning

Really, show me where the chapter states v16 is speaking only about YHWH.

Your trying to insert a pause in what was spoken to force your belief into the passage, that is not a good idea.

No, I'm trying to understand the bible according to its overall context.

You must have, Because if you did not you would admit it could NOT pertain to the prophet, it could ONLY relate to the lord God of Israel.

Again the "beginning" in the verse, whom I believe the word is pertaining to does not relate to the beginning as in Gen 1:1.

 

[Noose]

To say Jesus is the Father because he is God is the same as saying Jesus is God since he's our Father.

Again, do you believe Jesus is the Father?

Yes. I do believe Jesus is the Father

Revelation 21:7
The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.

Jer 32: 38They will be My people, and I will be their God.

Jeremiah 30:22
And you will be My people, and I will be your God."

Rom 9:25As He says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people, and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,” 26and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called‘sons of the living God.’”

God is a God to a people because He is a Father to them. He is God because He is a Father and a Father because He is God.

When Jesus is referred to as the Father (Below), some try to explain it away. They claim He is a Father in some other respect, the reason i insist that God is a Father because He is God to a people, and He is God because He is a Father to a people, no other respect:

Isa 9: 6For unto us a child is born, unto us a sonis given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called WonderfulCounselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.