"... and the Word was GOd. ..."

[eternally-gratefull]

Really, show me where the chapter states v16 is speaking only about YHWH.

Show me where YHWH stopped talking, and the prophet started speaking himself. And why he would break mid sentence to speak concerning himself?

The prophet is writting down a dictation from God himself to give to the people. Do you know any people who do this, and in the middle of writting what the other person says, stops and inserts his own words in there

Can you give other examples of anyone doing this in scripture?

No, I'm trying to understand the bible according to its overall context.

If you believe so

Again the "beginning" in the verse, whom I believe the word is pertaining to does not relate to the beginning as in Gen 1:1.

Once again, You stated you believe

I am just taking the word. And interpreting it for what it says, It is not saying the begining of this letter. Or the benining of this reading, It is saying the head, or leader or spiritual begining of which the prophet fits NON of those things.

 

[crossnote]

Yes. I do believe Jesus is the Father

I can't seem to find where the Father died for our sins. Can you show me that passage?

 

[Noose]

I can't seem to find where the Father died for our sins. Can you show me that passage?

Why is it important to you that the Father dies? the title Father simply means that children are born of Him and the title children or sons simply means that they are born of the Father. But i can demonstrate from the scripture that Jesus is the Father/ was sent by the Father

 

[NWL]

Show me where YHWH stopped talking, and the prophet started speaking himself. And why he would break mid sentence to speak concerning himself?

I've already told you, why do you want me to repeat myself, v16b.

The prophet is writting down a dictation from God himself to give to the people. Do you know any people who do this, and in the middle of writting what the other person says, stops and inserts his own words in there

Can you give other examples of anyone doing this in scripture?

I can give you examples of speakers changing abruptly with no warning whatsoever, read rev 22:10-20. You dismiss the fact that trinitarian scholars themselves say that Isaiah was the speaker here.

Once again, You stated you believe

I am just taking the word. And interpreting it for what it says, It is not saying the begining of this letter. Or the benining of this reading, It is saying the head, or leader or spiritual begining of which the prophet fits NON of those things.

You are interpreting the scripture in such a raw manner. The context shows what the beginning refers to, it states ""Come near me and listen to this", YHWH is speaking to his people the nation Israel, he is addressing them, thus the context can only be stretched as far as that, that God has not spoken in secert from the beginning of talking to them. What you suppose doesn't even make sense, what good is it for God to say "I haven't spoken in secret from the beginning [of the world]", do his audience know that? No since they weren't there in the beginning with God. But if we take the verse to mean "I haven't spoken in secret from the beginning [of speaking to you]" it makes much more sense and would be completely relatable from the readers perspective.

New Living Translation
Come closer, and listen to this. From the beginning I have told you plainly what would happen.”

English Standard Version
Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.”

King James Bible
Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning

 

[crossnote]

Why is it important to you that the Father dies? the title Father simply means that children are born of Him and the title children or sons simply means that they are born of the Father. But i can demonstrate from the scripture that Jesus is the Father/ was sent by the Father

Are you God that you can make things up instead of sticking to what God reveals in His Word?
You know that Scripture does not reveal that the Father died for our sins, so why try to make the man made equation of "Jesus IS the Father"?

 

[NWL]

Yes. I do believe Jesus is the Father

Revelation 21:7
The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.

Jer 32: 38They will be My people, and I will be their God.

Jeremiah 30:22
And you will be My people, and I will be your God."

Rom 9:25As He says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people, and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,” 26and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called‘sons of the living God.’”

God is a God to a people because He is a Father to them. He is God because He is a Father and a Father because He is God.

When Jesus is referred to as the Father (Below), some try to explain it away. They claim He is a Father in some other respect, the reason i insist that God is a Father because He is God to a people, and He is God because He is a Father to a people, no other respect:

Isa 9: 6For unto us a child is born, unto us a sonis given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called WonderfulCounselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

What do you do with the two below verses then? How is Jesus the Father if he prays to the Father and if he hands back all things to the Father if he is that one.

(John 17:1) "..Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you.."

(1 Corinthians 15:24) "..Next, the end, when he [Jesus] hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.."

Regarding Isaiah 9:6 and "everlasting Father", the way I see it is that Jesus is our father in some sense, but not the Father of the OT. Jesus is our Father because he has taken Adam's place by becoming the "last Adam" (1 Cor 15:45). Through Adam all man die (See Romans 5:12) and it's through Jesus we all live, Jesus has become Adam and thus gains all the titles that belonged to Adam. If Adam never ate the tree of knowledge he would still be alive today, he would our eldest and eternal Father. Since Jesus has become the "last Adam" he gains this title becoming our eternal Father, however he is disticnt from his Father and God Jehovah.

(1 Corinthians 15:45) "..So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.."

 

[Nehemiah6]

But i can demonstrate from the scripture that Jesus is the Father/ was sent by the Father

Do you realize how absurd this sounds? Why are you not content with the fact that Jesus is the Son -- the only begotten Son of God the Father?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've already told you, why do you want me to repeat myself, v16b.

Then I can in no way accept your view.

I can give you examples of speakers changing abruptly with no warning whatsoever, read rev 22:10-20. You dismiss the fact that trinitarian scholars themselves say that Isaiah was the speaker here.

I do not care what people say I care what the passage says, And what the hebrew says. I am not a follower of men.

You are interpreting the scripture in such a raw manner. The context shows what the beginning refers to, it states ""Come near me and listen to this", YHWH is speaking to his people the nation Israel, he is addressing them, thus the context can only be stretched as far as that, that God has not spoken in secert from the beginning of talking to them. What you suppose doesn't even make sense, what good is it for God to say "I haven't spoken in secret from the beginning [of the world]", do his audience know that? No since they weren't there in the beginning with God. But if we take the verse to mean "I haven't spoken in secret from the beginning [of speaking to you]" it makes much more sense and would be completely relatable from the readers perspective.

New Living Translation
Come closer, and listen to this. From the beginning I have told you plainly what would happen.”

English Standard Version
Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.”

King James Bible
Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning

Yes, It is YHWH telling the people of Israel through the prophet. come near to me, from the begining, I have plainly told you from the time it (the beginning) came to be, I have been here.

Once again, Whether you take the begining to mean th ebegining of time, or the beginning of the nation of Israel. Bother are far more reasonable that saying it was the prophet.

Lets look a the passage

God of isreal.

1. Isreal and jacob are my called
2. I am the first and the last
3. My hand layed the foundation of the earth (the beginning)
4. My hands stretch forth the heavens when I call them, they hear

5. All of you assemble and hear
6. Who has told you these things? The lord has declared them all
7. I even I have spoke, I have called him, He may prosper.
8, again, come near to me, Listen and hear this,
9. I (god) have not spoken in secrret, from the beginning, from the time it The begining) was until now I was there
thus says the lord, I ...............

All of this is God from the begining to the end. If it is the prophet. It loses its weight and power.

 

[Noose]

What do you do with the two below verses then? How is Jesus the Father if he prays to the Father and if he hands back all things to the Father if he is that one.

(John 17:1) "..Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you.."

(1 Corinthians 15:24) "..Next, the end, when he [Jesus] hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.."

The Father came to practically demonstrate sonship to us. I do believe the title concerning sonship or Christship is ours - He came to show us and gave us that authority which we will give back after we are victorious. This is shown here:

Mal 3:1“Behold, I will send My messenger, who will prepare the way before Me. Then the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple—the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight—see, He is coming,” says the LORD of Hosts.

Isa 40:
3A voice of one calling:
“Prepare the way for the LORD in the wilderness;a
make a straight highway for our God in the desert.

Mark 1:
1This is the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.a 2As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“Behold, I will send My messenger ahead of You,
who will prepare Your way.”b

3“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for Him.’”c

4John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.5People went out to him from all of Jerusalem and the countryside of Judea. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

6John was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey.7And he began to proclaim: “After me will come One more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you with water,d but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.e ”

9In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.


Jesus, many times said He was sent by the Father. The verses above show how the son was sent. They show that the Father became the son. In Malachi 3:1, God sends Himself and when He gets here on earth, it quickly changes to the messenger of the covenant.
Isaiah prophesied in Isa 40:3 by saying plainly that it was God. Mark combined both prophesies for our convenience and let us know that it was Jesus.

Regarding Isaiah 9:6 and "everlasting Father", the way I see it is that Jesus is our father in some sense, but not the Father of the OT. Jesus is our Father because he has taken Adam's place by becoming the "last Adam" (1 Cor 15:45). Through Adam all man die (See Romans 5:12) and it's through Jesus we all live, Jesus has become Adam and thus gains all the titles that belonged to Adam. If Adam never ate the tree of knowledge he would still be alive today, he would our eldest and eternal Father. Since Jesus has become the "last Adam" he gains this title becoming our eternal Father, however he is disticnt from his Father and God Jehovah.

(1 Corinthians 15:45) "..So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.."

Like i said before, a Father is a Father only with one respect, that some sons/children are born of Him.
And Jesus said:

Matt 23:9And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

 

[Noose]

Do you realize how absurd this sounds? Why are you not content with the fact that Jesus is the Son -- the only begotten Son of God the Father?

Yes i do. Then the bible is absurd because God sent Himself.

Mal 3:1“Behold, I will send My messenger, who will prepare the way before Me. Then the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple—the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight—see, He is coming,” says the LORD of Hosts.

Isa 40:
3A voice of one calling:
“Prepare the way for the LORD in the wilderness;a
make a straight highway for our God in the desert.

Mark 1:
1This is the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.a 2As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“Behold, I will send My messenger ahead of You,
who will prepare Your way.”b

3“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for Him.’”c

4John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.5People went out to him from all of Jerusalem and the countryside of Judea. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

6John was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey.7And he began to proclaim: “After me will come One more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you with water,d but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.e ”

9In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.


If Jesus was sent by the Father and in the above passages we see the Father send Himself, then it is not actually absurd to conclude that the Father and the son are ONE.

 

[Noose]

Are you God that you can make things up instead of sticking to what God reveals in His Word?
You know that Scripture does not reveal that the Father died for our sins, so why try to make the man made equation of "Jesus IS the Father"?

Is the Father Love?
well, the greatest love of all is laying down your life for others.

 

[NWL]

I do not care what people say I care what the passage says, And what the hebrew says. I am not a follower of men.

If someone who is an expert in Hebrew can come to a conclusion, then its not much of a sterch and a crazy idea that I can come to the same conclusion. You're making out like what I'm saying about Is 48:16b is absurd and made up despite it being documented as the correct understanding.

You say you are not a follower of man and yet it was Man who invented the doctrine of the trinity, no Man alive today would have believed in the doctrine of the Trinity if it were not down to scholars and the Roman empire who conjured up the doctrine.

Yes, It is YHWH telling the people of Israel through the prophet. come near to me, from the begining, I have plainly told you from the time it (the beginning) came to be, I have been here.

Once again, Whether you take the begining to mean th ebegining of time, or the beginning of the nation of Israel. Bother are far more reasonable that saying it was the prophet.

So you admit that its YHWH speaking to his people yet you fail to acknowledge that the statement would make no sense to the Hebrew readers since the statement goes beyond what they're experienced with God. Again it makes no sense for God to say:

"...Come near me [Nation of Israel]. From the beginning [of time] I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there..." - Where the nation of Israel with God since the beginning for this sentence to make any sense or be relatable to them? No.

"...Come near me [Nation of Israel]. From the beginning [of me knowing you] I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there..." - This makes much more sense and as I said before can be fully comprehended by the Hebrews back then.

Lets look a the passage

God of isreal.

1. Isreal and jacob are my called
2. I am the first and the last
3. My hand layed the foundation of the earth (the beginning)
4. My hands stretch forth the heavens when I call them, they hear

5. All of you assemble and hear
6. Who has told you these things? The lord has declared them all
7. I even I have spoke, I have called him, He may prosper.
8, again, come near to me, Listen and hear this,
9. I (god) have not spoken in secrret, from the beginning, from the time it The begining) was until now I was there
thus says the lord, I ...............

All of this is God from the begining to the end. If it is the prophet. It loses its weight and power.

I'm not saying the verses you mentioned are about Isaiah, but v16b certainly is and has to be. And the verse still holds weight if Isaiah is the speaker in v16b since it simply reflects what is said in Isaiah 6:8, "Then I heard the voice of Jehovah saying: “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I [Isaiah] said: “Here I am! Send me!”

(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) "..we know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.."

The verse mentions three different types of gods, namely, so-called gods, the many gods and the one God. Who is identified as the one God?

 

[PennEd]

The mystery is this:

We must understand that God in his manifested state, especially in the Gospels, always presents himself to as one person, just as we are one person. This has to be true because we are made in his image and likeness, and each of us is one person. And as you know all persons have names, and so it is with God. In fact, God has three names.

So what we see in the Gospels is God calling himself the Father as he decides his affairs: "Only the Father knows." And as he inspires us to believe in himself he uses the name Holy Spirit: "Receive ye the Holy Spirit." But in all cases as he speaks to us he calls himself Jesus: "I Jesus say unto you."

This should not seem strange to us because almost every person we know has three names. And we have no problem understanding who they are talking about when they use one of there other names. And so it should be with God. It's just that with God he speaks to us in symbolic language and we don't understand that he is speaking about himself.

See, with God it's not the dividing of himself into three parts, as many people believe. It's name recognition. It's by what name he speaks to us!

What I am saying is, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost are all references to him as the brings us to salvation.

Rev Autrey

Is there a reason you neglected THIS post? Explain to us how ALL 3 members of the Godhead were present AT THE SAME TIME, if modalism is correct:

Matthew 3:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If someone who is an expert in Hebrew can come to a conclusion, then its not much of a sterch and a crazy idea that I can come to the same conclusion. You're making out like what I'm saying about Is 48:16b is absurd and made up despite it being documented as the correct understanding.

You say you are not a follower of man and yet it was Man who invented the doctrine of the trinity, no Man alive today would have believed in the doctrine of the Trinity if it were not down to scholars and the Roman empire who conjured up the doctrine.

Thats your view dude, And your wrong. Trinity is all over the bible. I just gave one passage. There are many others..

What your saying about Is 48 is absurd? You said it not me!

and what is amazing, Is I only spoke of one aspect. There is another.

“The LORD GOD and HIS SPIRIT have sent me.. You forgot the other two members of the godhead.

So you admit that its YHWH speaking to his people yet you fail to acknowledge that the statement would make no sense to the Hebrew readers since the statement goes beyond what they're experienced with God. Again it makes no sense for God to say:

"...Come near me [Nation of Israel]. From the beginning [of time] I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there..." - Where the nation of Israel with God since the beginning for this sentence to make any sense or be relatable to them? No.

"...Come near me [Nation of Israel]. From the beginning [of me knowing you] I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there..." - This makes much more sense and as I said before can be fully comprehended by the Hebrews back then.

Thats your view. You have failed to prove that view. And it does not fit with the rest of scripture..

Come to me (the God of Isreal. The great I Am

The lord God - Father

And his spirit - Holy Spirit

In one passage we have the trinity.

I'm not saying the verses you mentioned are about Isaiah, but v16b certainly is and has to be. And the verse still holds weight if Isaiah is the speaker in v16b since it simply reflects what is said in Isaiah 6:8,

"Then I heard the voice of Jehovah saying: “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I [Isaiah] said: “Here I am! Send me!”

This one is clear. You can not use this to justify your faulty view of te other passage why?

Then I heard (I is isaiah)
Then “YHWH said (whom shall I send)
Then I Answered

It makes total sense in context. Nice try though.

(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) "..we know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.."

The verse mentions three different types of gods, namely, so-called gods, the many gods and the one God. Who is identified as the one God?

One, as in united.

We have the same thing happen all over the world. Even in scripture. The church is one, yet many..

Again, Your choice of passages do not fit. They can easily be explained as to what is said, Unlike the passage I am using.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is there a reason you neglected THIS post? Explain to us how ALL 3 members of the Godhead were present AT THE SAME TIME, if modalism is correct:

Matthew 3:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Its all over the word..

In trying to rebuke the catholic church, He is keeping himself from seeing what the bible really says.

 

[NWL]

Thats your view dude, And your wrong. Trinity is all over the bible. I just gave one passage. There are many others..

What your saying about Is 48 is absurd? You said it not me!

and what is amazing, Is I only spoke of one aspect. There is another.

“The LORD GOD and HIS SPIRIT have sent me.. You forgot the other two members of the godhead.

Thats your view. You have failed to prove that view. And it does not fit with the rest of scripture..

Come to me (the God of Isreal. The great I Am

The lord God - Father

And his spirit - Holy Spirit

In one passage we have the trinity.

And I would say the same and the opposite in regards to what you claim.

This one is clear. You can not use this to justify your faulty view of te other passage why?

Then I heard (I is isaiah)
Then “YHWH said (whom shall I send)
Then I Answered

It makes total sense in context. Nice try though.

If you couldn't see it my reason for bringing in Isaiah 6:8 is because it referencing Isaiah being sent, "Here I am! Send me!". This corresponds to what how it possible that Isaiah is the one speaking and echoing what is said in previous scripture.

One, as in united.

We have the same thing happen all over the world. Even in scripture. The church is one, yet many..

Again, Your choice of passages do not fit. They can easily be explained as to what is said, Unlike the passage I am using.

One as in united? That isn't what the verse says though is it. where does the verse and context even hint its in regards to unity as you state? And this is all coming from the person who said they interpret scripture for "what it says"????

1 Cor 8:4-6 broken down:

there is no God but one.
 For even though there are so-called gods
just as there are many “gods”
there is actually to us one God, the Father,

Where in the above does it hint to a unity? The verse clearly identifies the Father alone as the unique "one God".

And you didn't even answer the question, who is identified as the one God in 1 Cor 8:4-6?

 

[Noose]

Is there a reason you neglected THIS post? Explain to us how ALL 3 members of the Godhead were present AT THE SAME TIME, if modalism is correct:

Matthew 3:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Jesus baptism does not prove Trinity:

1. It is arguable that only Jesus and John saw and heard, the rest of the people did not see or hear anything.
John heard and saw because he was to testify;

John 1:
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’ 31I myself did not know Him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that He might be revealed to Israel.”

32Then John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and resting on Him. 33I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34I have seen and testified that this is the Sonf of God.”

Other verses that explain the same thing show the voice of the Father addressing Jesus directly, "..you are my son, with you i'm well pleased.."

These means that event was relevant for the ministry of John and it was symbolic. It doesn't mean there were three persons at that place.

2. There was only one person and one being during Jesus' baptism. That person is Jesus. A voice being heard and a dove descending are symbols. We can not say the nature of the Father is a voice and the nature of the Holy is a dove.
If you insist then i have a question:

Q. Jesus as He stood by Himself in the water getting baptized, was He one person and one God by Himself?

 

[PennEd]

Jesus baptism does not prove Trinity:

1. It is arguable that only Jesus and John saw and heard, the rest of the people did not see or hear anything.
John heard and saw because he was to testify;

John 1:
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’ 31I myself did not know Him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that He might be revealed to Israel.”

32Then John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and resting on Him. 33I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34I have seen and testified that this is the Sonf of God.”

Other verses that explain the same thing show the voice of the Father addressing Jesus directly, "..you are my son, with you i'm well pleased.."

These means that event was relevant for the ministry of John and it was symbolic. It doesn't mean there were three persons at that place.

2. There was only one person and one being during Jesus' baptism. That person is Jesus. A voice being heard and a dove descending are symbols. We can not say the nature of the Father is a voice and the nature of the Holy is a dove.
If you insist then i have a question:

Q. Jesus as He stood by Himself in the water getting baptized, was He one person and one God by Himself?

Here we allegory mixed with mental gymnastics!


What does it matter if only John and Jesus saw and heard? Same with the Transfiguration. The point is proven that the Father, Son, And Holy Spirit are 3 distinct entities that consist of the ONE Godhead. They are in the same place, at the same time, and a human witnessed it.

This type of stuff is exactly why I started the Noahide thread. You can see modalists joining in the persecution of Christians who claim the Trinity is is true with the antichrist.

 

[posthuman]

How are we bickering over this in v.16 when in v. 12 it is clearly YHVH the Lord of Hosts saying "I AM the First and the Last" which is exactly the same thing Jesus Christ the Son announces Himself as in Revelation 22:13 ?

 

[Noose]

Here we allegory mixed with mental gymnastics!


What does it matter if only John and Jesus saw and heard? Same with the Transfiguration. The point is proven that the Father, Son, And Holy Spirit are 3 distinct entities that consist of the ONE Godhead. They are in the same place, at the same time, and a human witnessed it.

This type of stuff is exactly why I started the Noahide thread. You can see modalists joining in the persecution of Christians who claim the Trinity is is true with the antichrist.

Three persons were not in one place at the same time- that's my point. It all happened in the spirit so that the Messiah maybe revealed to John, not physically. That's why only John in the midst of many, saw and heard.
Same thing with transfiguration event- it happened in the spirit of those that it was meant for.


When it comes to the physical, we see something totally different. Consider what Jesus told his disciples before He ascending:
1. He will send a comforter to be with them forever
2. He was leaving them comfortless, He was coming back to them soon
3. The comforter was already there with the disciples and they knew Him yet Jesus had to go for the comforter to come in them. If Jesus doesn't go, the comforter doesn't not come.

Jesus here was simply claiming to be the Holy spirit. If the Holy spirit and Jesus are two distinct persons, then there's no need for Jesus to say all these things; that He must go for the Holy spirit to come, yet the Holy spirit was already there with them. Why would Jesus go and send a person who was already there with the disciples (whom the disciples knew).