How mysticism is undermining Bible Christianity today

[garee]

I

f scripture were entirely sufficient on its own then there would be no one practicing Judaism. Everyone reading the bible would be Christian and would be in agreement with what the bible says.

But the bible needs something in addition to itself that you and others call "mystic". The bible needs to be understood and interpreted by people who ACTUALLY have come to Christ and received the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the Knowledge of Him.

Without this Wisdom and Revelation you merely get religions like Judaism, SDA, Roman Catholicism and others.

I would agree the Wisdom of God (a living, abiding Wisdom Personified) . Not the wisdom of the prophets as the private interpretations of men or called the witness of men inspired earthly.

I would offer. In every reformation. The 1st century with the Son of man, Jesus and the 15th century the same purifying authority (all things written in the law and the prophets...sola scriptura) restored the government of God just as it works in individual what are called revivals or any time two or three gather together in respect to His name as it is written.

The mind of God revealed to man as a perfect law of faith….. washing purifying, returning the good ground of faith "as it is written", the place where the good incorruptible seed can take roots .

The Spirit of Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God washes itself from the hands (will) of men. He as the Potter has no needs but satisfies all.

His name is Jealous he owns all and will not share that glory with the clay.

Jesus as the Son of man refused to be a foundation men could look upon .When called good master he refused to stand in the Holy place of the glory of God and said only God is good. Good seems to represent the unseen Holy place of God reserved for the Father .

In the Old testament God set aside a parable to show us he is not served by the things seen .Informing us in Job 23 he is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul pleases. He informs us he performs the things appointed to us giving us a desire to do His will and the power to finish it. In that parable God uses and unclean animal (Ass) Hed Used to represent unbelief (no faith) in mankind . As a ceremonial law that was used to preach the suffering of Christ before hand and the glory that did follow. When Jesus said it is finished.

It was necessary to redeem Ass that a lamb must be slaughtered or the neck of the Ass broken as picture of unbelief, as well as God has no needs but satisfies all . The words of prophecy that came form the Ass did stop the madness of that false prophets .You could say as a work of God's faithfulness His great labor of love.

Not as if God who works in us to both will and do his good pleasure as our imputed righteousness of Christ, our confidence was somehow served by human hands and we should wrestle against flesh and blood rather than spirits not seen. As Christians we can go to the unseen wisdom having the faith of God as you mentioned as His Wisdom and Revelation. The wisdom revealed in Mathew 16 to Peter..... Jesus said to Peter not what do others say as if our faith came from seeing the temporal each other. . Jesus said not by flesh and blood.( the things seen)

Judaism is used to represent unbelief in mankind. Because they had no faith in a God who heveals Himself as it is written.They turned that upside down and made the it in as it is written (the Christian's one source of faith) after flesh and blood as it is seen the counterfeit talking away the understanding of all things written in the law and the prophets the gospel Key .

Isaiah 29:16Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

 

[crossnote]

It seems more like you guys trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater to me.

Ephesians 1:17-21
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:


If scripture were entirely sufficient on its own then there would be no one practicing Judaism. Everyone reading the bible would be Christian and would be in agreement with what the bible says.

But the bible needs something in addition to itself that you and others call "mystic". The bible needs to be understood and interpreted by people who ACTUALLY have come to Christ and received the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the Knowledge of Him.

Without this Wisdom and Revelation you merely get religions like Judaism, SDA, Roman Catholicism and others.

You get this;
2 Corinthians 3:14-16
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.


The bible is not Christ. Scripture is not Christ. Scripture is written record of Gods Words but it is not the same as the Word of God. The Word of God is a person and His Name is Jesus Christ.

A person has to come to Christ and be given wisdom and revelation in the Knowledge of Christ before they can begin to understand what the Scripture says. They have to hear from the Word of God before they understand the written Word of God which is scripture.

According to Merriam-Webster mysticism is:
1: the experience of mystical union or direct communion with ultimate reality reported by mystics
2: the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (such as intuition or insight)
3a: vague speculation : a belief without sound basis
b: a theory postulating the possibility of direct and intuitive acquisition of ineffable knowledge or power


What is coming to Christ and receiving wisdom and revelation but direct knowledge of God, Spiritual Truth that is attained through subjective experience???

"you guys"? Nice.
I never inferred Scripture was sufficient without the Holy Spirit, I was speaking in relation to all the extra paraphernalia Christiandom trys to push on us...the gimmicks, programs, 12 steps etc.

I never said the Bible is Christ. It is the written Word of God just as true as if He sat next to you speaking it. Another false inference.
The Word of God is a Person. The Bible is the sure words of that Person.

A person has to come to Christ and be given wisdom and revelation in the Knowledge of Christ before they can begin to understand what the Scripture says. They have to hear from the Word of God before they understand the written Word of God which is scripture.

How do they 'come to Christ' without the preached/written Word of Christ? Rom 10:14.

What is coming to Christ and receiving wisdom and revelation but direct knowledge of God, Spiritual Truth that is attained through subjective experience???

We've been over this already. You speak of coming to Christ directly as if one is coming to God directly like mysticism teaches. The difference is with Christ we are coming to the God/man, the One and Only mediator between God and man. With mystics, they think they have a direct connection. Even as Christians we need the Holy Spirit and the written/preached Word. Those two build our faith in the One who we do not yet see, and tests the words of those who we do see and hear.

 

[garee]

We've been over this already. You speak of coming to Christ directly as if one is coming to God directly like mysticism teaches. The difference is with Christ we are coming to the God/man, the One and Only mediator between God and man. With mystics, they think they have a direct connection. Even as Christians we need the Holy Spirit and the written/preached Word. Those two build our faith in the One who we do not yet see, and tests the words of those who we do see and hear.

Mystics have a form to begin with knowing when seeking after disembodied workers with familiar spirits there are a legion of them as a multitude of gods .A face idol image much be attached to be used as a direct source of faith. . Just as Catholic do with the legion they have available (3500 and rising)

A see that God/man a little differently. We have one mediator not seen according to the corrupted flesh of the Son of Man Jesus , who informs us his flesh and blood is typified as sinful, it cannot profit as if it was spirit life. Our mediator must be reckoned as one not seen with the human eye( like the father) reckoned by a new heart and new spirit the Spirit of Christ which dwells in these earthen corrupted by bodies of death .

Christ suffered the second death pouring out His Spirit life for us in jeopardy of his own Spirit. Giving us the promise of new incorruptible bodies as the eternal bride, the church.

 

[crossnote]

Our mediator must be reckoned as one not seen with the human eye( like the father) reckoned by a new heart and new spirit the Spirit of Christ which dwells in these earthen corrupted by bodies of death .

Christ suffered the second death pouring out His Spirit life for us in jeopardy of his own Spirit. Giving us the promise of new incorruptible bodies as the eternal bride, the church.

Jesus Christ is not up in heaven only as Spirit like the Father. He will forever be the God/man, fully God/fully man. The Incarnation and especially the BODILY resurrection guarantees that.

Acts 1:10-11 KJVS
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Unlike the Father we'll see Jesus alright, and then some...

Revelation 1:12-16 KJVS
[12] And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; [13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. [14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; [15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. [16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

 

[garee]

Jesus Christ is not up in heaven only as Spirit like the Father. He will forever be the God/man, fully God/fully man. The Incarnation and especially the BODILY resurrection guarantees that.

Acts 1:10-11 KJVS
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Unlike the Father we'll see Jesus alright, and then some...

Revelation 1:12-16 KJVS
[12] And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; [13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. [14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; [15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. [16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

I would guess its how we hear God that we have our differences.

In Job 9 the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God speaks directly to the matter. Informing us God is not a man as us and neither is there a fleshly infallible interpreter as umpire to stand between eternal God not seen and man seen. called a daysman.

Jesus as the Son of man refused to stand in the holy place of God's glory represented by the Father . There simply is no daysman between God and man. that the work of the Holy Spirit that indwells the believer.

Job 9:32-34 King James Version (KJV) For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:...……………………...(the fear of man)


The same Jesus( not seen) is not the Jesus of the corrupted flesh the Son of man . He will come by faith as he left out of sight.

He informs us His corrupted flesh does not profit. It must of been typified as sinful to do what the letter of the law could not do (it kills) But rather that in which the spirit of faith a alone could do pour out the spirit life on the flesh of the Son of man Jesus .
Some did know him after the things seen. He left a commandment we are not to know him that way forever more. He is not a man as us. He is eternal God like no other.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.


Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 

[Dino246]

The same Jesus( not seen) is not the Jesus of the corrupted flesh the Son of man . He will come by faith as he left out of sight.

He informs us His corrupted flesh does not profit. It must of been typified as sinful to do what the letter of the law could not do (it kills) But rather that in which the spirit of faith a alone could do pour out the spirit life on the flesh of the Son of man Jesus .
Some did know him after the things seen. He left a commandment we are not to know him that way forever more. He is not a man as us. He is eternal God like no other.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Garee, you're misinterpreting these passages. Jesus did not have corrupted (sinful) flesh; He came in the likeness of sinful flesh. There is a huge difference!

Jesus' earthly body, which was subject to decay (physical corruption) was transformed into an immortal body as the firstfruits; the body He now has is the kind of body that believers will inherit after this life.

If you confuse physical corruption with spiritual corruption, you'll end up with false doctrine. Jesus' body was neither physically corrupted (decayed after death) nor spiritually corrupted by sin.

As for your views on mediation, consider 1 Timothy 2:5, where Paul states, "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ." This took place after Christ's resurrection, which indicates that Christ is fully man in His glorified state.

 

[crossnote]

Jesus as the Son of man refused to stand in the holy place of God's glory represented by the Father . There simply is no daysman between God and man. that the work of the Holy Spirit that indwells the believer

1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Grandpa]

"you guys"? Nice.
I never inferred Scripture was sufficient without the Holy Spirit, I was speaking in relation to all the extra paraphernalia Christiandom trys to push on us...the gimmicks, programs, 12 steps etc.

Well, I couldn't really tell when you said scripture was sufficient. And then you argued about a subjective point of view being useless in Christianity.

I never said the Bible is Christ. It is the written Word of God just as true as if He sat next to you speaking it. Another false inference.
The Word of God is a Person. The Bible is the sure words of that Person.

Well, when the Lord says come to me and I will give you rest, how do Christians objectively come to Christ?

There's no real empirical proof that we came to Him or that He was there in the first place. So don't we subjectively seek Christ and His Gifts?

Don't you have to say that part of Christianity falls into the same definition as "mystic".

How do they 'come to Christ' without the preached/written Word of Christ? Rom 10:14.

I don't know.

But there are some testimonies about people coming to Christ, or rather Christ coming to them, without having read scripture.

 

[garee]

1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

God is not a man as us and niether is there a feshly mediaotor that stands between God not seen and man seen.(daysman)

Yes, one man Christ Jesus as the Son of man was used as a "demonstration" of the unseen work of pouring out His Spirit on flesh .Something the law could not do as the letter it kills. The demonstration is not the actual work of pouring out His unseen Spirit on sinful flesh

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

A "demonstration" of the work performed as the lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world .

God is not a man as us. It was a demonstration promised in Isaiah 53.... of the Father and the eternal Son of God working together in perfect harmony and mutual submissiveness to each other. The peace of God that surpasses the understanding of the flesh. The Son of man, Jesus used as a one time demonstration (the veil is rent). The demonstration is over

Salvation is never configured after the corrupted flesh reckoned as dead. Jesus as the Son of man said it profits for nothing. zip, nada

There is no power configured after the flesh as to what the eyes see. (never) The Son of man refused to stand in the holy unseen place of God as his hidden glory using the word reserved, father. The Son of man, Jesus said only God (not seen) is good.

Glorying in the flesh of Christ simply constitutes idol worship. He was reckoned the Son of God, as eternal God by the holiness of the Spirit. Simply no such thing as holiness of the corrupted flesh that the Son' of man put on temporality .

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Again, By the resurrection from the dead. Not the birth in the manager (no power) That is a Catholic design to try and give the corrupted flesh of some Queen Mary the author of faith .:

Son of God (Not seen) = power as that which does profit

Son of man (seen the temporal) = no power . Profits as a demonstration as far as the eyes that did see it .We walk by faith the unseen eternal. Put on the prescipbed vison wear (2 Corinthians 4:18) 20/20 spiritual understanding.

Some did see and known him after the temporal corrupted flesh. But when he left he made it very clear the flesh used to show the work of the father and Son as the lamb of God slain from before the demonstration had ened. .The demonstration does not become the source of faith as if God was a man as us/. Impossible.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

 

[crossnote]

Well, I couldn't really tell when you said scripture was sufficient. And then you argued about a subjective point of view being useless in Christianity.

You are making things up. I said our subjective experiences are not as sure as the objective Word.

Well, when the Lord says come to me and I will give you rest, how do Christians objectively come to Christ?

There's no real empirical proof that we came to Him or that He was there in the first place. So don't we subjectively seek Christ and His Gifts?

Don't you have to say that part of Christianity falls into the same definition as "mystic".

1. I never said our actions or experiences are subjective, only God's word is. We take that objective Word which is rooted in objective history by faith. Mystics have no objective history...it's all mental/spiritual gobbly-gook.

2. We have an objective object of our faith namely Jesus Christ, who had over 500 witness His post resurrection appearances and many His ascension. We come by faith to that which has objectively been proven by eyewitness testimony. We by faith come to the objective Christ. Mystics by faith come to subjective Christ of their own choosing.

3. No.

 

[crossnote]

God is not a man as us and niether is there a feshly mediaotor that stands between God not seen and man seen.(daysman)

You can sqawk about this until the cows come home but it doesn't change the fact that Jesus is God in the flesh from the time of the Incarnation throughout eternity.

1 Timothy 2:5 KJVS
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Revelation 22:3-4 KJVS
[3] And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: [4] And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Your gnosticism just can't stand the light of Scripture.

 

[garee]

You can sqawk about this until the cows come home but it doesn't change the fact that Jesus is God in the flesh from the time of the Incarnation throughout eternity.

1 Timothy 2:5 KJVS
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Revelation 22:3-4 KJVS
[3] And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: [4] And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Your gnosticism just can't stand the light of Scripture.

Hi Crossnote

With respect. It would seem that your suggestion represents Gnosticism . . extra knowledge...…. oral traditions

Jesus as the Son of man says His flesh It profits for nothing, zip, nada. In John 6 many disciples who were hoping what the eyes see could profit they walked away in unbelief (no faith) when he said it does not profit

You can squawk about this until cows become extinct but it doesn't change the fact that God is not a man as us and neither is there a fleshly mediator to stand in the holy place of the Father called a daysman (Job 9:33) No connection as a influence to the clay. The Potter does all the forming and breathing into mankind spirit life.

Jesus as the Son of man resisted attributing his corrupted flesh as if flesh defined God. . . he resisted a God in the likeness of men with a passion. .Just as the apostles in Acts 14. Those who had no faith that could please God not seen contributed the unseen work of the gospel of God to human hands (the apostles) , The apostles tore their clothes to represent blasphemy . The idea of making eternal God in the likeness of men only demonstrated again they had no faith that could please God .

And there they preached the gospel.And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:Acts 14:7-15

Jesus as the Son of man like the apostles resisted be called God in the likeness of man . God is not a man as us. He would have no part in idol worship. The idea of thinking God is a man as us.(a creation) is not a biblical thought

Jesus said "only God is good". What do you think that means? Do you think it means God is a man as us?

Eternal supernatural (no nature as a beginning) has no mother and father .Eternal God has no DNA . He is our faithful Creator and remains the Son of God continually without beginning or end of Spirit life. ..

Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Hebrews 7:3

Not made like unto the Son of man .God..... in the likeness of man

 

[baeJO6]

After reading your statement regarding Christianity and mysticism, I could not click away without adding my point of view. Your explanation was thorough! I don't worry about those situations of mysticism because Christianity has always dealt with people and groups that claim they have special powers or skills through Jesus Christ/God. But I know to be aware of those false hearted people. Someone once told me, " if you can't find it in the Bible, its not true." That throws out half the noise makers. And in the Bible I found a passage that said, "let your eyes look straight ahead, fix your gaze directly before you." Proverbs 4:25. For me that means, turn my gaze on Him via the Bible, I can't go wrong. Again, "if it not found in the Bible, it's not true." Don't waste your valuable time trying to figure out what the false prophets say to people weak in their faith or have no faith at all. This falls on the story about the farmer sowing seeds and where they fail. (Luke 8:4-15). And some false prophets even tried to buy the power of the WORD so they could claim to be blessed with the workings of Jesus Christ. that was mysticism trying to be authenticated via one of God's own. In summation, mysticism is Satan disguised as one of God's own. If God wants a person to receive Him, he will soften that person's heart toward Him. And He will give the person the option to follow him or follow the false prophet (Satan in the form of a mystic).

 

[Dino246]

Hi Crossnote

With respect. It would seem that your suggestion represents Gnosticism . . extra knowledge...…. oral traditions

Jesus as the Son of man says His flesh It profits for nothing, zip, nada. In John 6 many disciples who were hoping what the eyes see could profit they walked away in unbelief (no faith) when he said it does not profit

You're taking John 6:63 out of context and trying to apply it as though it were an all-encompassing statement, which it is not.

You can squawk about this until cows become extinct but it doesn't change the fact that God is not a man as us and neither is there a fleshly mediator to stand in the holy place of the Father called a daysman (Job 9:33) No connection as a influence to the clay. The Potter does all the forming and breathing into mankind spirit life.

You're mixing things up. Job was complaining about the lack of a mediator. Paul said Christ IS the mediator.

Jesus as the Son of man resisted attributing his corrupted flesh as if flesh defined God

Jesus did not have corrupted flesh at all, period. His flesh was neither physically corrupted nor spiritually corrupted.

.Just as the apostles in Acts 14. Those who had no faith that could please God not seen contributed the unseen work of the gospel of God to human hands (the apostles) , The apostles tore their clothes to represent blasphemy . The idea of making eternal God in the likeness of men only demonstrated again they had no faith that could please God .

Man did not make God in their image; rather, God came as a man, in the likeness of men.

Jesus as the Son of man like the apostles resisted be called God in the likeness of man .

No He didn't. Thomas called Him, "My Lord and my God" and Jesus did not correct or rebuke him. The apostles rightly rejected the people's worship, whereas Jesus accepted it.

God is not a man as us. He would have no part in idol worship. The idea of thinking God is a man as us.(a creation) is not a biblical thought

Nobody is saying that God is a man. Once again, you're mixing things up.

Eternal supernatural (no nature as a beginning) has no mother and father .Eternal God has no DNA . He is our faithful Creator and remains the Son of God continually without beginning or end of Spirit life. ..

Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Hebrews 7:3

Once more, you're mixing things up, this time with the description of Melchizedek and the attributes of Christ. They are not the same thing!

 

[Dino246]

After reading your statement regarding Christianity and mysticism, I could not click away without adding my point of view. Your explanation was thorough! I don't worry about those situations of mysticism because Christianity has always dealt with people and groups that claim they have special powers or skills through Jesus Christ/God. But I know to be aware of those false hearted people. Someone once told me, " if you can't find it in the Bible, its not true." That throws out half the noise makers. And in the Bible I found a passage that said, "let your eyes look straight ahead, fix your gaze directly before you." Proverbs 4:25. For me that means, turn my gaze on Him via the Bible, I can't go wrong. Again, "if it not found in the Bible, it's not true." Don't waste your valuable time trying to figure out what the false prophets say to people weak in their faith or have no faith at all. This falls on the story about the farmer sowing seeds and where they fail. (Luke 8:4-15). And some false prophets even tried to buy the power of the WORD so they could claim to be blessed with the workings of Jesus Christ. that was mysticism trying to be authenticated via one of God's own. In summation, mysticism is Satan disguised as one of God's own. If God wants a person to receive Him, he will soften that person's heart toward Him. And He will give the person the option to follow him or follow the false prophet (Satan in the form of a mystic).

It's helpful to quote the post to which you are referring, so we all know whom you're addressing. Use the "Reply" button at lower right on each post.

 

[Grandpa]

1. I never said our actions or experiences are subjective, only God's word is. We take that objective Word which is rooted in objective history by faith. Mystics have no objective history...it's all mental/spiritual gobbly-gook.

2. We have an objective object of our faith namely Jesus Christ, who had over 500 witness His post resurrection appearances and many His ascension. We come by faith to that which has objectively been proven by eyewitness testimony. We by faith come to the objective Christ. Mystics by faith come to subjective Christ of their own choosing.

3. No.

There's no such thing as objective faith. If its objective then it is proven and able to be proven over and over to others. That's not faith, its fact.

But we can't prove that we have come to Christ. We can't prove that someone else has come to Christ. All we have are subjective testimonies that some believe and some don't.


Direct knowledge of God, or Spiritual Truth can ONLY be attained through our subjective experience of coming to Christ.

Scripture even says so in 2 Corinthians 3...


I'm not trying to argue that Christ is not a fact. Christ is a fact. But coming to Him is subjective. Each one of us has a different view and a different perspective of who Christ is and what He has done for us. And that is what makes Christianity at least partially subjective. It has to fall within the bounds of scripture but even the interpretation of that is partially subjective.

 

[garee]

You're taking John 6:63 out of context and trying to apply it as though it were an all-encompassing statement, which it is not.

Hi Dino

I would offer. It is all encompassing every square inch of flesh seen. None of it profits

You're mixing things up. Job was complaining about the lack of a mediator. Paul said Christ IS the mediator.

Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God is the mediator as the Son of God our High priest continually .. The Son of man resisted being called daysman "A fleshly mediator that stand between fleshly man seen and God not seen as a infallible teacher"

Job was not complaining he was explaining .The Spirit of Christ working in Job put his thoughts on Job's tongue as prophecy. The Spirit revealed …God is not a man as us and neither is there any God in the likeness of men (daysman)

The Son of man Jesus as our example was in effect called a daysman (Good Master) He set the stage for us to protect us from the antichrists . The many that are here today. ( they teach a man seen much teach us talking away the promise of the Holy Spirit who do lovingly commands us to seek His unseen approval by looking into His gospel, the word of God our new tongue by which we can have a hope in praising His name.

The Son of man, Jesus refused to stand in the holy place of faith. I am sure we all have our favorites but none of them stand where Jesus would not. The place of faith as the very source . If Jesus as the Son of man did not depart. The greater works, three thousands souls in the twinkling of the eye could not occurred . It was then also that the blasphemy law came into affect the temporal excuse ( Son of man) had departed (And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him.) Faith kicked in.

Matthew 19:16-18 King James Version (KJV)And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jesus did not have corrupted flesh at all, period. His flesh was neither physically corrupted nor spiritually corrupted.

He aged like his Mom. . Its a sure mark his flesh as a body of death was typified as sinful .It had to be according to Romans 8 in order to perform what the law seen could not do. It kills .

Man did not make God in their image; rather, God came as a man, in the likeness of men.

God is not a man as us. The one time outward demonstration is over. God came as a Spirit. Not as a man . Left as a Spirit. Not as a man

That what the unbelieving Jew performed turning things upside down to remove the circular reasoning law. Making it all about the philosophies of men . hoping they could recognize God who has no form by looking at the flesh and playing "who is the greatest" please stand in the holy place as that which the apostles struggled with until they could walk by faith.

No He didn't. Thomas called Him, "My Lord and my God" and Jesus did not correct or rebuke him. The apostles rightly rejected the people's worship, whereas Jesus accepted it.

Accepted it as what. . . . Worship?

2 Corinthian 5:16 informs that some like faithless Thomas did know him after his temporal flesh . Flesh and blood could never enter the kingdom of God. Jesus knew that he informed us.

The demonstration is over. Jesus do not say good work you have recognized me as looking like God without taking a DNA test.. But rather Jesus told him to be not faithless, but believing

Nobody is saying that God is a man. Once again, you're mixing things up.

Really then what are you defending.. God became a man ?

Once more, you're mixing things up, this time with the description of Melchizedek and the attributes of Christ. They are not the same thing!

But made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. (without beginning without end) Hebrew7

The attribute is the Son of God, the anointing teaching Holy Spirt of Christ. priest continually. . Melchizedek is reckoned as the Spirit of Christ. The demonstration came as theophany or vision in the Old Testament. But again corrupted flesh must be used to put away sin in the flesh... not a theophany as a shadow of the Son of man coming in the flesh, but real corrupted flesh and blood.

When Jesus was baptized by John the last Levi of the old order of a priesthood. .Jesus fulfilled the promise as coming as our high priest as the Son of God continually .Again without beginning of Spirit life or end of it. The new priesthood of believers, a kingdom of priests after all the nations of the world.

Hebrews 5:9-11 King James Version (KJV)And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

Psalm 110:4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek

 

[garee]

There's no such thing as objective faith. If its objective then it is proven and able to be proven over and over to others. That's not faith, its fact.

But we can't prove that we have come to Christ. We can't prove that someone else has come to Christ. All we have are subjective testimonies that some believe and some don't.


Direct knowledge of God, or Spiritual Truth can ONLY be attained through our subjective experience of coming to Christ.

Scripture even says so in 2 Corinthians 3...

I'm not trying to argue that Christ is not a fact. Christ is a fact. But coming to Him is subjective. Each one of us has a different view and a different perspective of who Christ is and what He has done for us. And that is what makes Christianity at least partially subjective. It has to fall within the bounds of scripture but even the interpretation of that is partially subjective.

Cause and affect. The work of faith (the unseen) as a labor of love. God first loved us. Christ the author and finisher. The Just and justifier. Alpha and Omega . Our all in all .

Objective faith is the faith of God. . . . the one source "as it is written". As a Perfect law it effectively works as a labor of His love in us with us...to both will and do His good pleasure as we are yoked with Him. He is our righteousness. He says we so do so without murmuring.

What if some hear His word taste of the good things to come and refuse to believe God not seen? Will their lack of faith (believing God) make the faith of God that works in his children to effect? Or would it expose they have "no faith" working in them by which they could please God?

 

[Dino246]

Hi Dino
I would offer. It is all encompassing every square inch of flesh seen. None of it profits

You're going off on a rabbit trail. I'm not going to join you on it.

Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God is the mediator as the Son of God our High priest continually .. The Son of man resisted being called daysman "A fleshly mediator that stand between fleshly man seen and God not seen as a infallible teacher"

Christ is not the Holy Spirit, and where in Scripture did He resist being called a daysman?

Job was not complaining he was explaining .The Spirit of Christ working in Job put his thoughts on Job's tongue as prophecy. The Spirit revealed …God is not a man as us and neither is there any God in the likeness of men (daysman)

The Son of man Jesus as our example was in effect called a daysman (Good Master) He set the stage for us to protect us from the antichrists . The many that are here today. ( they teach a man seen much teach us talking away the promise of the Holy Spirit who do lovingly commands us to seek His unseen approval by looking into His gospel, the word of God our new tongue by which we can have a hope in praising His name.

You really seem to like the word, "daysman", despite the fact that it appears only once in the KJV and not at all in modern translations; not even in the New KJV. Why do you use a word repeatedly that is not used in modern English?

The Son of man, Jesus refused to stand in the holy place of faith. I am sure we all have our favorites but none of them stand where Jesus would not. The place of faith as the very source . If Jesus as the Son of man did not depart. The greater works, three thousands souls in the twinkling of the eye could not occurred . It was then also that the blasphemy law came into affect the temporal excuse ( Son of man) had departed (And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him.) Faith kicked in.

Jesus did not "refuse to stand in the holy place of faith". That isn't in Scripture anywhere.

He aged like his Mom. . Its a sure mark his flesh as a body of death was typified as sinful .It had to be according to Romans 8 in order to perform what the law seen could not do. It kills .

Jesus grew up naturally. That is not corruption, but design.

God is not a man as us. The one time outward demonstration is over. God came as a Spirit. Not as a man . Left as a Spirit. Not as a man

You've crossed the line into heresy.

That what the unbelieving Jew performed turning things upside down to remove the circular reasoning law. Making it all about the philosophies of men . hoping they could recognize God who has no form by looking at the flesh and playing "who is the greatest" please stand in the holy place as that which the apostles struggled with until they could walk by faith.

You're still using your incorrect invented meaning for "circular reasoning".

Accepted it as what. . . . Worship?

Yes, as worship, which is exactly what that means, in clear English.

2 Corinthian 5:16 informs that some like faithless Thomas did know him after his temporal flesh . Flesh and blood could never enter the kingdom of God. Jesus knew that he informed us.

No it does not. Thomas is not mentioned at all in 2 Corinthians 5. Once again you are adding to what is written.

Really then what are you defending.. God became a man ?

Think really carefully about what you are asking here. You seem to have acquired your basic theology from a highly questionable source.

 

[crossnote]

There's no such thing as objective faith. If its objective then it is proven and able to be proven over and over to others. That's not faith, its fact.

I think you are splitting hairs (to win a point?). By objective faith, I am referring to our faith that is based on an objective God doing an objective work in us. Mysticism's faith is based on conjecture, imagination, experiences, doctrines of demons and does not align with reality.

But we can't prove that we have come to Christ. We can't prove that someone else has come to Christ. All we have are subjective testimonies that some believe and some don't.

That depends on your criteria of proof. If a person can't at least prove to himself that he has come to Christ, then he will be in perpetual doubt.

Direct knowledge of God, or Spiritual Truth can ONLY be attained through our subjective experience of coming to Christ.

Scripture even says so in 2 Corinthians 3...

We don't have direct knowledge of God as the mystics claim. Our knowledge comes through the intermediators of His written/preached Word, His Son as the God/man, and His Spirit working when and where He chooses. We can't just barge into God's presence without those intermediators. He first comes to us, and if He doesn't...there is no faith.

I'm not trying to argue that Christ is not a fact. Christ is a fact. But coming to Him is subjective. Each one of us has a different view and a different perspective of who Christ is and what He has done for us. And that is what makes Christianity at least partially subjective. It has to fall within the bounds of scripture but even the interpretation of that is partially subjective.

Again, unless the Objective God comes to us and reveals Himself in truth, then I would agree, our faith would be based on a subjective notion. But since He actually and truly works on the hearts of men, converting them etc., then no, that is not a subjective faith.
Mysticism OTOH has no objective God behind their faith but perhaps only the doctrines of demons.