Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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How about created in Christ Jesus unto good works? DO they belong in the same sentence?
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ARE we to affirm that they which HAVE believed (past tense) might be careful to maintain good works? (Titus3 :8)
Are we to provoke one another to love and good works? Heb 10:24
Is faith without works dead?
Salvation first. Complete and unabridged salvation. Works follow. Simple and plain, it's easy to see.
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ARE we to affirm that they which HAVE believed (past tense) might be careful to maintain good works? (Titus3 :8)
Are we to provoke one another to love and good works? Heb 10:24
Is faith without works dead?
Salvation first. Complete and unabridged salvation. Works follow. Simple and plain, it's easy to see.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 4:4
Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 4:4
Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
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Yep, if it is of grace, then work is no more work. VERY GOOD scripture. KUDOS
And to Him that has received grace, work is no longer reckoned as meritorious work, it becomes an expression of gratitude and love. 1 JOHN 5:3.
AND no one has room to boast, for WHAT DO WE HAVE THAT WE DID NOT RECEiVE FROM GOD. 1 Corinthians 4:7
All of Grace, it is all of grace, naught of myself, but all from Him, it is all of grace, that is all.
And to Him that has received grace, work is no longer reckoned as meritorious work, it becomes an expression of gratitude and love. 1 JOHN 5:3.
AND no one has room to boast, for WHAT DO WE HAVE THAT WE DID NOT RECEiVE FROM GOD. 1 Corinthians 4:7
All of Grace, it is all of grace, naught of myself, but all from Him, it is all of grace, that is all.
Quite humorous. Except I didn't x the posts of yours that I xed because you wrote them. I do not take a stand against God's Word because I don't like the person who sald it. That would be quite dangerous. And you xed a post that contained nothing except a truth and a scripture, so that makes you rather dangerous.
I xed them because they contain personal attacks and ad hominem, which is against the rules. I never attacked you personally, other than call you out on your misrepresentations and bad argumentation, but you resort to personal attacks, and you do not provide documentation for your accusations, like I am careful to do when I call you out on misrepresentations.
I xed them because they contain personal attacks and ad hominem, which is against the rules. I never attacked you personally, other than call you out on your misrepresentations and bad argumentation, but you resort to personal attacks, and you do not provide documentation for your accusations, like I am careful to do when I call you out on misrepresentations.
Yes, Justification is by FAITH ALONE. But we are talking about what follows justification. The work of GRACE does not end in our lives at justification, it is only beginning. I am not talking about what we need to do to be saved or justified, I am talking about what God PROMISED HE would do after we are saved. He will complete the work He began in us, and that work INCLUDES and continues all the way to GLORIFICATION. When we believe, we cease from our own works and enter into His program of working IN US.
Salvation is not just justification. It is also regeneration, adoption, sanctification, preservation, and glorification. You are conflating justification with salvation. Justification is but ONE ASPECT of sanctification. ANd none of it has anything to do with OUR WORKS. THat is a misrepresentation of my position. I have always and constantly affirmed that ALL of it has to do with what God HAS DONE, IS DOING, and WILL DO
So you post was a mixture of scripture, adhominem , false accusation, and personal attack. Basically trying to make salt water and fresh water flow from the same source. That is why I xed this post, FYI.
Cheers.
Salvation is not just justification. It is also regeneration, adoption, sanctification, preservation, and glorification. You are conflating justification with salvation. Justification is but ONE ASPECT of sanctification. ANd none of it has anything to do with OUR WORKS. THat is a misrepresentation of my position. I have always and constantly affirmed that ALL of it has to do with what God HAS DONE, IS DOING, and WILL DO
So you post was a mixture of scripture, adhominem , false accusation, and personal attack. Basically trying to make salt water and fresh water flow from the same source. That is why I xed this post, FYI.
Cheers.
Like I said, WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION
Did you happen to miss that? The crux of the entire post?
Justified by faith ALONE, works follow out of love and gratitude
Just like fire produces smoke
Your post is a textbook example of what GB9 calls being proved wrong. You say exactly what I said, and then accuse me of not saying it.
Did you happen to miss that? The crux of the entire post?
Justified by faith ALONE, works follow out of love and gratitude
Just like fire produces smoke
Your post is a textbook example of what GB9 calls being proved wrong. You say exactly what I said, and then accuse me of not saying it.
I STILL THINK YOU BOTH are confused about what the other is Actually saying, thinking it is trying to justify works righteousness, AND I DO NOT SEE THAT IN EITHER OF YOUR POSTS.
IN Macabeus's POST: When you say WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION; but don't you mean that SALVATION COMES FIRST, without any works. Then if someone wants to see if you REALLY WERE SAVED, all they have to do is examine the LOVE you reflect to GOD and OTHERS, and they WILL KNOW. I picked that up because YOU SAID: Justified by faith ALONE, works follow out of love and gratitude.
Matthew 7:20 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit. [ LOVE being the PRIMARY FRUIT.]
1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,
Now the FACT is, we have SEEN numerous people who used the exact same expression: WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION, BUT MEAN THE EXACT OPPOSITE, which has caused dcontroveral to MIS-UNDERSTAND what Macabeus is saying. THEY literally mean by the expression WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION that SALVATION IS COMPLETED BY WORKS, which is false doctrine. We have been fighting this battle with those who what to believe that SALVATION is not complete until AFTER THOSE WORKS. And I did not join this THREAD until at least page 300 or later, so dcontroversal has been confronting these that believe SALVATION is not complete until so many works have been done (TOTALLY FALSE DOCTRINE).
Now Macabeus, if I have discerned YOUR position correctly, and you DO NOT BELIEVE what most have meant by WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION, please let me Know. Because, I have a simple SOLUTION for you. Stop using the expression WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION, instead, USE THE EXPRESSION: WORKS FLOW OUT OF GOD GIVEN LOVE. That is the Expression that I use, and I think it is the same meaning that You applied to your WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION.
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I STILL THINK YOU BOTH are confused about what the other is Actually saying, thinking it is trying to justify works righteousness, AND I DO NOT SEE THAT IN EITHER OF YOUR POSTS.
IN Macabeus's POST: When you say WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION; but don't you mean that SALVATION COMES FIRST, without any works. Then if someone wants to see if you REALLY WERE SAVED, all they have to do is examine the LOVE you reflect to GOD and OTHERS, and they WILL KNOW. I picked that up because YOU SAID: Justified by faith ALONE, works follow out of love and gratitude.
Matthew 7:20 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit. [ LOVE being the PRIMARY FRUIT.]
1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,
Now the FACT is, we have SEEN numerous people who used the exact same expression: WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION, BUT MEAN THE EXACT OPPOSITE, which has caused dcontroveral to MIS-UNDERSTAND what Macabeus is saying. THEY literally mean by the expression WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION that SALVATION IS COMPLETED BY WORKS, which is false doctrine. We have been fighting this battle with those who what to believe that SALVATION is not complete until AFTER THOSE WORKS. And I did not join this THREAD until at least page 300 or later, so dcontroversal has been confronting these that believe SALVATION is not complete until so many works have been done (TOTALLY FALSE DOCTRINE).
Now Macabeus, if I have discerned YOUR position correctly, and you DO NOT BELIEVE what most have meant by WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION, please let me Know. Because, I have a simple SOLUTION for you. Stop using the expression WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION, instead, USE THE EXPRESSION: WORKS FLOW OUT OF GOD GIVEN LOVE. That is the Expression that I use, and I think it is the same meaning that You applied to your WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION.
IN Macabeus's POST: When you say WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION; but don't you mean that SALVATION COMES FIRST, without any works.
In answer to your question, the answer is a resounding yes. DC knows this is my position. I have stated it dozens of times. If Mailmandan says the same thing I say, (and ask him, he does),that works follow/come after salvation, no one disagrees with him, and he will get thumbs up all around. But if I say it, I get dogpiled.
Much of the disagreement is personal, and I will show that later. If I cannot, I will apologize for wrongly suggesting such a thing.
I agree with your summation that works flow out of God given love. If you go back over my posts that I posted today, you will see that I said this numerous times this afternoon, but people disagree out of personal dislike for me. That is OK, I've probably earned it. But it is foolish to disagree with someone just because you don't like them.
In answer to your question, the answer is a resounding yes. DC knows this is my position. I have stated it dozens of times. If Mailmandan says the same thing I say, (and ask him, he does),that works follow/come after salvation, no one disagrees with him, and he will get thumbs up all around. But if I say it, I get dogpiled.
Much of the disagreement is personal, and I will show that later. If I cannot, I will apologize for wrongly suggesting such a thing.
I agree with your summation that works flow out of God given love. If you go back over my posts that I posted today, you will see that I said this numerous times this afternoon, but people disagree out of personal dislike for me. That is OK, I've probably earned it. But it is foolish to disagree with someone just because you don't like them.
See, right here, Mailmandan said the same thing I am saying, works come after salvation, and DC LIKED his post.
Look AT the bolded and enlarged part in red
Works of obedience FOLLOW faith being activated and made alive with Christ. You have it backwards. Mailmandan
Now follow the post to the link and see that DC LIKED this post. He is not disagreeing with me because I said works follow salvation, it is because he has a personal vendetta.
Faith being activated and made alive would be saving faith, would it not?
Look AT the bolded and enlarged part in red
Works of obedience FOLLOW faith being activated and made alive with Christ. You have it backwards. Mailmandan
Now follow the post to the link and see that DC LIKED this post. He is not disagreeing with me because I said works follow salvation, it is because he has a personal vendetta.
Faith being activated and made alive would be saving faith, would it not?