Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Ahh the famous circular argument.

You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.
Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.

Okay, I understand why you guys are so unwilling to give an unequivocal yes or no.
No it is not circular at all. It is just fact.

Who was james talking to?

Hearers of the word only Not doers.

People who CLAIMED to have faith (not that they really had faith

People who like demons BELIEVED in jesus, But sadly like Demeans, they had NO FAITH in jesus (their faith was dead)

They were licentious people. Who think because you said some prayer you were saved, That true repentance and true faith did not matter.

So you are wrong in tghe first place when you say we THINK we only have to believe. If you can not get that right, You can not understand our faith. And will never comprehend a word we say.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
What about LAMBS and LIONS laying together or KIDS playing with deadly snakes and not being hurt or LIONS eating straw like the OX......it is 100% pure ignorance to say we are in the Millennium right now.......and even more idiotic to say the end came and went in 70 A.D.
How about Jesus ruling with a rod of Iron?

Look at the world today, Does it look Like jesus is ruling the nations with a rod of Iron? How about satan being bound so he can no longer deceive nations. My own nations is being decieved quite well by Satan s we speak.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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They were
Paul fought against legalism

James fought against licentiousness

They both p[reach salvation by Grace through faith.

If they were apposed and thought different gospel. One of them was wrong.. I doubt God would have put the wrong who was wrong in scripture
They both preached it was Christ's work of faith that we are saved by.

Verse 1 of James 2. The commandment that seems to get overlooked sets the standard for the rest of the chapter. No understanding there, later in the chapter things of faith makes no sense.Then men start pitting one prophet against another as to "who is the greatest". The apostles repeated that over and over every time the understanding was take away from them.

We are not to have the faith of Christ, the faith of God in respect to our own selves . It defines Blasphemy .If we would attribute it (faith) to Rehab or any believer we already have blasphemed the name by which we are called.

The problem as I see it mankind in general do not want to attribute faith to God not seen.

For some odd reason or some say he needs none to beleive as a faithful Creator. .He does not have to believe is the consensus?

Once the faith principle is proper atributed to God then James and Paul can be on the same page
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Ahh the famous circular argument.

You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.
Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.

Okay, I understand why you guys are so unwilling to give an unequivocal yes or no.

As with Saul of Tarsus,,,where when and how was he saved in Scripture?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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:ROFL:

If Rahab believed God by faith, but chose not to hide the spies, do you believe she would still have been saved?

A simple yes or no would suffice.
for the zillionth time...
Of course she would still be saved. Our salvation is dependent on the perfect obedience of Christ, not on our's.
In case you missed my one word answer, it is yes!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
They both preached it was Christ's work of faith that we are saved by.

Verse 1 of James 2. The commandment that seems to get overlooked sets the standard for the rest of the chapter. No understanding there, later in the chapter things of faith makes no sense.Then men start pitting one prophet against another as to "who is the greatest". The apostles repeated that over and over every time the understanding was take away from them.

We are not to have the faith of Christ, the faith of God in respect to our own selves . It defines Blasphemy .If we would attribute it (faith) to Rehab or any believer we already have blasphemed the name by which we are called.

The problem as I see it mankind in general do not want to attribute faith to God not seen.

For some odd reason or some say he needs none to beleive as a faithful Creator. .He does not have to believe is the consensus?

Once the faith principle is proper atributed to God then James and Paul can be on the same page
I have no idea what your rambling

Christ faith took him to the cross

Our faith takes us to christ.

This christs faith stuff is not from the bible.

And your still missing context

James spoke to licentious people. Who had no works.

Paul spoke to legalistic people. Who attempted to add works to salvation (like you are doing)

You are misinterpreting James, and failing to head the warning of paul. And thus you are in danger
 
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How about Jesus ruling with a rod of Iron?

Look at the world today, Does it look Like jesus is ruling the nations with a rod of Iron? How about satan being bound so he can no longer deceive nations. My own nations is being decieved quite well by Satan s we speak.
The evidence abounds to the contrary and yet tooth and nail they fight it, refuse to acknowledge truth and argue against the truth.......and people that are rock solid on salvation for the most part....unbelievable.....
 
Jan 12, 2019
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for the zillionth time...
Of course she would still be saved. Our salvation is dependent on the perfect obedience of Christ, not on our's.
In case you missed my one word answer, it is yes!
Hmm, when I stated you said yes originally, you claimed in #1080 I twisted your words. :ROFL:
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Yes you can, When it comes to salvation.

Because we are saved FIRST by Faith alone in the WORK of God.

And our own WORKS are a BYPRODUCT of that salvation.

When you say WORKS must come first. Your saying salvation is not a grace gift, but an earned reward. And are boasting of saving yourself by your own works.
I am not saying works could come first (self-rightous) . Works do not proceed faith, the plan. I am say saying we are saved the faith of God that works in us . The unbelieving (no faith) Jew that is used to represent unbelieving mankind turned it upside down it the apposing faith took away God's understanding.

We are saved by the work of God .His work of faith or labor of love.

We begin with the faith of God working in us called the "hearing of faith" revealed below in Galatians 3 .

Us hearing him through his word it (faith) works in us, giving us a imputed righteousness in order to perform the good will of God, a mystery .

I would call the mystery of faith in respect to His faith . Previously having no faith by which we could hear him not seen . As we are informed in Roman 3. What if some refuse to beleive the word of God. The Christian's source of faith, will it (there unbelief, no faith) make the faithful word of God without effect?

To effect something is to work it out in that way.

Romans 3 King James Version (KJV)What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

I think it is emphasized below in Galatians. Beginning with the Holy Spirit calling Christians foolish. Defining a fool as one who says there is no God in their heart, unbelief. as those who have no faith.

Revealing even believers do foolish things that deny the hearing of faith( the work of God giving ear for the churches to hear Him not seen . Twice he emphasizes its the work of God that does work in those who have the new faith to believe and therefore can do the good will When and if he faithfully works in us, with us, making His faith perfect

Galatians 3 King James Version (KJV)O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness

Faith cannot be separated from works . That can be seen right away If Abraham was justified vy works then whose, if not of the faith of Christ as the power of God that all beliver have in these bodies of death . Same faith as that of rehab or us today .the mutual faith of Christ.

Niether the faith nor the works are attributed to the Rehab the believer. Christ began it in them and he finished it,making it perfrct.

Faith = Christ's
Works = Christ's

Working in = mankind
Righteouness of = Christ

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.James 2:20-23

It, God's power of faith working made the devil flee . Powerful word "it"

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto himMathew4:10-11
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The evidence abounds to the contrary and yet tooth and nail they fight it, refuse to acknowledge truth and argue against the truth.......and people that are rock solid on salvation for the most part....unbelievable.....
Thats what happens when we think we know something, and do not open our mins to understand, even after years of study, we may be wrong.

I had to eat that pill once or twice and be humbled.. Its hard to do.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I am not saying works could come first (self-rightous) . Works do not proceed faith, the plan. I am say saying we are saved the faith of God that works in us . The unbelieving (no faith) Jew that is used to represent unbelieving mankind turned it upside down it the apposing faith took away God's understanding.

We are saved by the work of God .His work of faith or labor of love.

We begin with the faith of God working in us called the "hearing of faith" revealed below in Galatians 3 .

Us hearing him through his word it (faith) works in us, giving us a imputed righteousness in order to perform the good will of God, a mystery .

I would call the mystery of faith in respect to His faith . Previously having no faith by which we could hear him not seen . As we are informed in Roman 3. What if some refuse to beleive the word of God. The Christian's source of faith, will it (there unbelief, no faith) make the faithful word of God without effect?

To effect something is to work it out in that way.

Romans 3 King James Version (KJV)What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

I think it is emphasized below in Galatians. Beginning with the Holy Spirit calling Christians foolish. Defining a fool as one who says there is no God in their heart, unbelief. as those who have no faith.

Revealing even believers do foolish things that deny the hearing of faith( the work of God giving ear for the churches to hear Him not seen . Twice he emphasizes its the work of God that does work in those who have the new faith to believe and therefore can do the good will When and if he faithfully works in us, with us, making His faith perfect

Galatians 3 King James Version (KJV)O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness

Faith cannot be separated from works . That can be seen right away If Abraham was justified vy works then whose, if not of the faith of Christ as the power of God that all beliver have in these bodies of death . Same faith as that of rehab or us today .the mutual faith of Christ.

Niether the faith nor the works are attributed to the Rehab the believer. Christ began it in them and he finished it,making it perfrct.

Faith = Christ's
Works = Christ's

Working in = mankind
Righteouness of = Christ

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.James 2:20-23

It, God's power of faith working made the devil flee . Powerful word "it"

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto himMathew4:10-11
You still miss the point

Faith works.

Lack of faith may work, But it will be self righteous works.

Only the licentious or people who have not repented and agree that their sin is a problem, will continue to live as they are.

THEY are the people james fought against.

Not people who have true faith, But remain children, and may not do alot of works..

James said if we claim to have faith but have NO WORK. Can our faith save us?

By defenition. One can have faith and have 1 work. And by definition not be considered to have faith and no works.

No works, means that, No works, Zero zip nada. As jude said, they turn the grace of God to licentiousness, and their eternal destination was predetermined.

They have BELIEF they have ZERO AMOUNT OF FAITH (dead)

If faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain. How much faith does it take to do a few works?

Then again, If faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain. then you should see easily these people who CLAIMED to have faith, but had NO WORKS, had no faith at all (not even as small as a mustard seed) so how can you claim they had faith? They did not. Thats WHY they were never saved (that faith can not save them) and why they had no works.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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You still miss the point

Faith works.

Lack of faith may work, But it will be self righteous works.

Lack of whose faith may work? It where things get turned upside down. Making the faith of God without effect.

The faith of Christ or Abraham who had none that could pleases God?

Since they cannot be separated faith is a work . Again faith is a work they are not sepreratible and more that the spirit essence of life separated form the dead bodies.

I would offer he is the author and perfecter of our new faith Previosuly having none. The just and the justifier

it cannot be any other person faith other than Christ. Agani the subject matter of those who who refuse to obey the commandment not to have the imputed faith of Christ in respect to Abraham or any other creature as the things of men .In conclusion to the coomanment the person who does claim a righteousness of their own have already Blasphemed the Holy Spirit. Get the commandment right and the rest of the chapter makes sence as a whole.

Note ….(purple in parenthesis) my addition

Seest thou how (Christ') faith wrought with his (Christ') works, and by (Christ') works was (Christ')faith made perfect? (Our perfecter)And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, (having the faith of Christ coming from God) and it (the righteousness of Christ's work of faith) was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James2:22-23

Imputed to Abraham not accredited . Those who blaspheme Christ (accredit the work of one to another) Abraham or one self showing they refuse to hear the commandment .

My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.James2:(Abraham and Rehab)

Do not they blaspheme that worthy name(Christ') by the which ye are called?James2:7

If we would turn it upside down and make it about the things of men seen the temporal, rather than faith in respect to the unseen power that indwells the believer we could find ourselves in a dilemma .

It is easy to see how one make the other without effect . Can't serve two masters . The things seen the temporal and the things of God not seen the eternal .I would think either we obey the commandment in the first verse or we blaspheme the name by attributing the work to the things seen. No faith

Seest thou how (Rehab's) faith wrought with his (Rehab's) works, and by (Rehab's) works was (Rehab's) faith made perfect? (Rehab our perfecter)And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham(Rehab) believed God, (having the faith of Rehab coming from rehab ) and it (the righteousness of Rehabs work of faith) was imputed unto him(Rehab) for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James2:22-23

That above sounds like self righteousness.... not imputed.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You still miss the point

Faith works.

Lack of faith may work, But it will be self righteous works.

Lack of whose faith may work? It where things get turned upside down. Making the faith of God without effect.

The faith of Christ or Abraham who had none that could pleases God?

Since they cannot be separated faith is a work . Again faith is a work they are not sepreratible and more that the spirit essence of life separated form the dead bodies.

I would offer he is the author and perfecter of our new faith Previosuly having none. The just and the justifier

it cannot be any other person faith other than Christ. Agani the subject matter of those who who refuse to obey the commandment not to have the imputed faith of Christ in respect to Abraham or any other creature as the things of men .In conclusion to the coomanment the person who does claim a righteousness of their own have already Blasphemed the Holy Spirit. Get the commandment right and the rest of the chapter makes sence as a whole.

Note ….(purple in parenthesis) my addition

Seest thou how (Christ') faith wrought with his (Christ') works, and by (Christ') works was (Christ')faith made perfect? (Our perfecter)And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, (having the faith of Christ coming from God) and it (the righteousness of Christ's work of faith) was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James2:22-23

Imputed to Abraham not accredited . Those who blaspheme Christ (accredit the work of one to another) Abraham or one self showing they refuse to hear the commandment .

My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.James2:(Abraham and Rehab)

Do not they blaspheme that worthy name(Christ') by the which ye are called?James2:7

If we would turn it upside down and make it about the things of men seen the temporal, rather than faith in respect to the unseen power that indwells the believer we could find ourselves in a dilemma .

It is easy to see how one make the other without effect . Can't serve two masters . The things seen the temporal and the things of God not seen the eternal .I would think either we obey the commandment in the first verse or we blaspheme the name by attributing the work to the things seen. No faith

Seest thou how (Rehab's) faith wrought with his (Rehab's) works, and by (Rehab's) works was (Rehab's) faith made perfect? (Rehab our perfecter)And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham(Rehab) believed God, (having the faith of Rehab coming from rehab ) and it (the righteousness of Rehabs work of faith) was imputed unto him(Rehab) for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James2:22-23

That above sounds like self righteousness.... not imputed.
No it is not works

Abraham had faith in God. And because of this, God considered him righteous.

DECADES later, Abraham offered his son issac.

So tell us.

Was abraham saved when God said (when he had faith)

Or did he have to wait until he offered his son decades late

And if it was the second option. What would have happened if Abraham died before he offered his son? Would he be lost because his faith was not made perfect (complete)?


Your trying to offer God your self righteousnesses, God will NOT ACCEPT that

He will ONLY justify you if and when you do as the tax collector did. And stop trying to be like the pharisee.





 
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(Isa 11:6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them )

The above is prophetic figurative language, Paul appeals to Isaiah in Romans:

(Isa 11:10 “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious.”

(Rom 15:12 And again, Isaiah says: There shall be a root of Jesse; And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”

If Paul is quoting Isaiah during his ministry the conclusion is that he is stating Isaiah's "wolf/lamb" prophecy is happening in his time and ministry. He's not quoting Isaiah to state it will come true 2000 years after his ministry.

The root of Jesse has already been established.

Paul also quotes from Deuteronomy in Rom 15:10:

(Rom 15:10 And again he says: Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people! )

(Deu 32:43 “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people; For He will avenge the blood of His servants, And render vengeance to His adversaries. He will provide atonement for His land and His people. )

We know that Jesus stated that God would avenge the blood of His servants in and upon the generation that heard Him:

(Mat 23:35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.)

(Mat 23:36 “Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. )
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
(Isa 11:6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them )

The above is prophetic figurative language, Paul appeals to Isaiah in Romans:

(Isa 11:10 “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious.”

(Rom 15:12 And again, Isaiah says: There shall be a root of Jesse; And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”

If Paul is quoting Isaiah during his ministry the conclusion is that he is stating Isaiah's "wolf/lamb" prophecy is happening in his time and ministry. He's not quoting Isaiah to state it will come true 2000 years after his ministry.

The root of Jesse has already been established.

Paul also quotes from Deuteronomy in Rom 15:10:

(Rom 15:10 And again he says: Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people! )

(Deu 32:43 “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people; For He will avenge the blood of His servants, And render vengeance to His adversaries. He will provide atonement for His land and His people. )

We know that Jesus stated that God would avenge the blood of His servants in and upon the generation that heard Him:

(Mat 23:35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.)

(Mat 23:36 “Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. )
Prophesy is not symbolic

What God was doing was giving the earth hope. There will come a day when peace will be restored.

How you can even say this has been symbolically fulfilled is prety amazing, Especially since the world has prey much been at war in one fashion or the other for the last 2000 years.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
(Isa 11:6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them )

The above is prophetic figurative language, Paul appeals to Isaiah in Romans:

(Isa 11:10 “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious.”

(Rom 15:12 And again, Isaiah says: There shall be a root of Jesse; And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”

If Paul is quoting Isaiah during his ministry the conclusion is that he is stating Isaiah's "wolf/lamb" prophecy is happening in his time and ministry. He's not quoting Isaiah to state it will come true 2000 years after his ministry.

The root of Jesse has already been established.

Paul also quotes from Deuteronomy in Rom 15:10:

(Rom 15:10 And again he says: Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people! )

(Deu 32:43 “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people; For He will avenge the blood of His servants, And render vengeance to His adversaries. He will provide atonement for His land and His people. )

We know that Jesus stated that God would avenge the blood of His servants in and upon the generation that heard Him:

(Mat 23:35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.)

(Mat 23:36 “Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. )
Exactly.....
For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy.
Romans 15:12

Jew and Gentile placed on an equal footing, the literal fulfillment of Isaiah, which employs imagery to convey a temporal and spiritual reality.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Ok, so what was your point for this long cross examination? What have you gained?
For one thing, those who are dispensationalists, the main advantage is we can take the bible as what the words literally say, and not have to assume many things.