Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14
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Again it is not my definition that speaking in tongues is proof that someone is filled or baptized with the Holy Spirit. Again you state
"because no churchfather ore reformator taught this, they was according your view not filled ore baptised with the Holy Spirit."
I have never said that you keep injecting that false narrative.
and if you knew Church History the gifts of the Holy Spirit started in the Book of Acts, not in Topeka. due to the fact that you do not hold the teaching of the church father as authoritative, it does not matter if they ever mentioned the teaching of initial evidence.
what we do know is many of the church fathers taught and spoke on the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Justin Martyr (approx. AD 100-165)
Irenaeus (approx. AD 120-202)
Novatian (approx. AD 210-280)
Gregory Neocaesarea (AD 213-270)
The Montanists
Reformation Era
Luther and Calvin Later leaders in the Reform tradition added the concept of the Illumination of the Spirit: [/QUOTE]
At first: my point is not about teaching the gifts of speaking in tongues.
My point is the teaching: that speaking in tongues as proof for to be filled ore received the Holy Spirit. Which some in this thread claim. F.e Wanswick in post 589 and Waggles in post 599. There was posts before too.
And I was in discussion with Kelby, when you postet me.
My intention was simple. The thread theme is: some truth about.....
I said simply that this teaching which waggles and wanswick share is not mentioned in the bible as teaching for the believers. And I also cant find that this was taught in the churchhistory till around 1901.
You mentioned some churchfathers.
I found in www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org:
"Justin Martyr listet some gifts but not glossolalia. Chrysostom wrote numerous homilies on books of the NT during the 4th century but does not appear to make mention of glossolalia as notet in 1 corinthians"
You mentioned the montanists as example, which was a cult.
Luther and Calvin did not taught this!
Otherwise you would find this in calvinism and protestant tradition.
Hi thanks for the reply
Ok, so Christians speaks in a "new tongue" called the "gospel" .What of it? The gospel as prophecy is being spread today, people that visit here are hearing the tongue of God as prophecy as well as those that do sharpen iron .His word is alive as our living witness we have heard and believed as His Spirt does witness to our new spirit that we have passed from death to new spirit life.
It is never about flesh and blood or what some call "sign gifts". Do we need to look for a private interpretation with each others use of the gospel, or just sound out the words and have our own understanding?
What does the sign of tongues confirm? Its foundation is found in the Old testament, Isaiah 28, and the law concerning the doctrine is expanded in 1 Corinthians 14.
Who are the people identified when God speaks to them over and over and "yet they still refuse to believe" in a unseen God and so he sends them a strong delusion so they can continue to walk by sight having received there reward of walking by sight . Making sounds without meaning as a way of confirming something?
How can you be sure God is not sending a strong delusion ?
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.Isaiaha 28:
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14:20-22 King James
Yet they would not hear being children in their understanding.
Ok, so Christians speaks in a "new tongue" called the "gospel" .What of it? The gospel as prophecy is being spread today, people that visit here are hearing the tongue of God as prophecy as well as those that do sharpen iron .His word is alive as our living witness we have heard and believed as His Spirt does witness to our new spirit that we have passed from death to new spirit life.
It is never about flesh and blood or what some call "sign gifts". Do we need to look for a private interpretation with each others use of the gospel, or just sound out the words and have our own understanding?
What does the sign of tongues confirm? Its foundation is found in the Old testament, Isaiah 28, and the law concerning the doctrine is expanded in 1 Corinthians 14.
Who are the people identified when God speaks to them over and over and "yet they still refuse to believe" in a unseen God and so he sends them a strong delusion so they can continue to walk by sight having received there reward of walking by sight . Making sounds without meaning as a way of confirming something?
How can you be sure God is not sending a strong delusion ?
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.Isaiaha 28:
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14:20-22 King James
Yet they would not hear being children in their understanding.
I wonder what the cessationist would do if they ever pushed the sides of the box down that hampers their God containing powerless doctrine.
We have clearly demonstrated they operate in a dimension of cleverness over simple and plain narrative.
Its like the Hily Spirit saw error in future,and allowed those in acts to get Baptised in the Hily Ghost FIRST,BEFORE SALVATION,solely for the cessationists in our day,to remove ANY NOTION, that water baptism and the new birth is one and the same with the promised infilling of power.
But should they still hope to reframe Gods word ,God added in that the gift was to be revieved by laying on of hands.
Too funny.
How ironic that they bypass the Holy Spirit to teach us how wrong we are about the Holy Spirit using clever modifications of the banner verses that actually indict and destroy their own doctrine.
Hilarious.
Somehow it is fitting that a certain insanity of interpretation follows those that denounce the gifts,along with the power for revelation,without which/whom there can be no understanding. No revelation.
IOW, its like praying "God dont let me know truth,because i reject your power given to know truth. "
Woah.
We have clearly demonstrated they operate in a dimension of cleverness over simple and plain narrative.
Its like the Hily Spirit saw error in future,and allowed those in acts to get Baptised in the Hily Ghost FIRST,BEFORE SALVATION,solely for the cessationists in our day,to remove ANY NOTION, that water baptism and the new birth is one and the same with the promised infilling of power.
But should they still hope to reframe Gods word ,God added in that the gift was to be revieved by laying on of hands.
Too funny.
How ironic that they bypass the Holy Spirit to teach us how wrong we are about the Holy Spirit using clever modifications of the banner verses that actually indict and destroy their own doctrine.
Hilarious.
Somehow it is fitting that a certain insanity of interpretation follows those that denounce the gifts,along with the power for revelation,without which/whom there can be no understanding. No revelation.
IOW, its like praying "God dont let me know truth,because i reject your power given to know truth. "
Woah.
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If the bible were a puzzle and the maker was God,and God numbered the pieces,there would only be one correct system for assembly.
If the numbers were invisible to humans but visible through special glasses,surely we would want a pair,as assembly would go much more accurately.
Heaven only is the holder and giver of the glasses.
I either need to go there and get me some,or get a pair imparted unto me by someone who has a pair.
We have certain "experts" that have another method.
Their way is superior.
They go to gurus. One of high rank is John Mcarthur. He simply decides by high intellect and his superior wisdom that his shrpie is powerful and it kinda numers the pieces under a parallel power to reveal to his followers where the pieces go.
Then teaches his students to watch you tube vids mocking those stupid four eyed wackos wearing those silly glasses.
Dear God,what a weird mix they carved out for themselves.
Imagine a horse race where winning involved starving the horse and despising muscle development.(power)
The dog won't hunt
If the numbers were invisible to humans but visible through special glasses,surely we would want a pair,as assembly would go much more accurately.
Heaven only is the holder and giver of the glasses.
I either need to go there and get me some,or get a pair imparted unto me by someone who has a pair.
We have certain "experts" that have another method.
Their way is superior.
They go to gurus. One of high rank is John Mcarthur. He simply decides by high intellect and his superior wisdom that his shrpie is powerful and it kinda numers the pieces under a parallel power to reveal to his followers where the pieces go.
Then teaches his students to watch you tube vids mocking those stupid four eyed wackos wearing those silly glasses.
Dear God,what a weird mix they carved out for themselves.
Imagine a horse race where winning involved starving the horse and despising muscle development.(power)
The dog won't hunt
The word cessationist was coined by the same that require a sign before they will believe. No such thing as "sign gifts". .There are signs as metaphor that someone has heard the gospel but they follow . A sign does one of two things .It either leads as that to be sought after ...."Chicago 23 miles . Or it follows …."You have just left the Chicago city limits come again". Like a master it canmot serve both . One way will be upside down, as that in which the faithless Jews were noted for as that needed to make the word of God to no effect. Can't have two sources of one faith. Again no man can serve two masters. No mater which way you turn it to confirm something?.
Prophecy has not ceased. The word of God is alive and is able to divide between what he says and what we think it never returns void.
it will either draw a person closer or distance from the Spirit of truth
God is not bring any new prophecy as the word of God under any manner to include tongues. Today they have electronic devices . that can be used to being the gospel our new tongues to other who have not heard it. Its not the gospel of confusion as if he was served by human hands . And yet as recorded in the law yet for all that they still refuse to believe as a sign against them confirming unbelief..
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Prophecy has not ceased. The word of God is alive and is able to divide between what he says and what we think it never returns void.
it will either draw a person closer or distance from the Spirit of truth
God is not bring any new prophecy as the word of God under any manner to include tongues. Today they have electronic devices . that can be used to being the gospel our new tongues to other who have not heard it. Its not the gospel of confusion as if he was served by human hands . And yet as recorded in the law yet for all that they still refuse to believe as a sign against them confirming unbelief..
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
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Dear Kelby, thank you for your reply.
When i became a christian in 87, i had also friends in an pentecostal church. And I was open for every kind of denomination, because i see myself as a christian, but not as baptist, menonite ore something else. So i was in the beginning also open for my friends telling i have to need to speak in tongues. Then I prayed and asked God for this. I got then the same impression which i got when i met doctrine from cults. So for me it became clear not to follow this doctrine. During my time as christian i became from pentecostals ore charismatic to hear that i am not a full christiam if i cant speak in tongues.
But nobody could show me where the bible teach it.
The beginning of this teaching lays in Topeka 1901. Before this you cant find this teaching anywhere.
Of course today among pentecostals and charismatics are different teachings about this matter. But this all began in Topeka, USA.
Well, i suppose we will not come to an conclusion. In my eyes this is a false teaching and not the truth. And I dont know which Spirit is behind.
It is also clear for me that you and others are convincet to do the right.
Well, the Lord knows our heart!!
When i became a christian in 87, i had also friends in an pentecostal church. And I was open for every kind of denomination, because i see myself as a christian, but not as baptist, menonite ore something else. So i was in the beginning also open for my friends telling i have to need to speak in tongues. Then I prayed and asked God for this. I got then the same impression which i got when i met doctrine from cults. So for me it became clear not to follow this doctrine. During my time as christian i became from pentecostals ore charismatic to hear that i am not a full christiam if i cant speak in tongues.
But nobody could show me where the bible teach it.
The beginning of this teaching lays in Topeka 1901. Before this you cant find this teaching anywhere.
Of course today among pentecostals and charismatics are different teachings about this matter. But this all began in Topeka, USA.
Well, i suppose we will not come to an conclusion. In my eyes this is a false teaching and not the truth. And I dont know which Spirit is behind.
It is also clear for me that you and others are convincet to do the right.
Well, the Lord knows our heart!!
I'm not saying that the disciples learned languages at Pentecost but I am saying that what you guys claim to do in your church is not what happened at Pentecost.
What I see by the words presented here on the forum is Pentecostals desire for power. There is an obsession with power to do stuff. That is not the reason Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Christ came to suffer and to die to redeem sinful mankind. Pentecostals covet power to the degree that they invent gifts that they can have so they feel powerful. Prayer tongues is probably the greatest of these invented gifts that I see here on the forums.
My experience and what I read in the word of God tends to have me believe that those who desire the most to wield power are the least likely to be given power.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
What I see by the words presented here on the forum is Pentecostals desire for power. There is an obsession with power to do stuff. That is not the reason Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Christ came to suffer and to die to redeem sinful mankind. Pentecostals covet power to the degree that they invent gifts that they can have so they feel powerful. Prayer tongues is probably the greatest of these invented gifts that I see here on the forums.
My experience and what I read in the word of God tends to have me believe that those who desire the most to wield power are the least likely to be given power.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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As usual you are not able to comprehend the truth. The Holy Spirit always speaks and opens the truth of the word of God to believers. The Holy Spirit makes the truth of Gods word plain to unbelievers that they will turn from their sin and come to Christ. The Holy Spirit draws souls to Christ. Unsaved souls that they might be converted and saved souls that they might be strengthened.
John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are Mine; therefore said I that He shall take of mine and shall show it unto you.
Revelation of Gods word is complete.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are Mine; therefore said I that He shall take of mine and shall show it unto you.
Revelation of Gods word is complete.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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