Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?

[Macabeus]

OK Bud, so here's the deal. I will wait for you to accept or reject my invitation to debate. If you accept, we will have the debate, and then we can close the issue. If you reject, I will consider the issue closed and ignore you from now on. SO which will it be.

It would be better if we just laid it all out in one shot in a debate than to keep playing message tag hours after the other responded.

Or we could do a point a day. limited to only one point a day. No limit on number of posts during that day, but no replies until the next day. Debate format

1. day 1-Budman- argue in favor of "Christians are slaves to sin" 1 post (15 minute time limit)

2. day 2-Macabeus- argue against "Christians are slaves to sin. "1 post (15 minute time limit)

3. day 3- Budman- rebuttal of Macabeus argument (10 minute time limit)

4. day 4- Macabeus- Rebuttal of Budman (10 minute time limit)

5. Cross examinations- 7 questions each.

7.day 5 Budman- closing argument (10 minutes)

8 day 6- Macabeus- Closing argument. (10 Minutes)

OK Bud, so here's the deal. I will wait for you to accept or reject my invitation to formally debate according to the format above, with appropriate time limit. (or we could discuss format if you want) If you accept, we will have the debate, and then we can close the discussion instead of each of us answering 10-20 posts a day all scattered and willy nilly. It can all be layed out nice and clean. SO what do you say?

 

[Macabeus]

I may or may not be away for a couple days, but I will be back at least by Saturday if not sooner, (unless providence prevents me) to see if you accepted my invitation

 

[Macabeus]

You add conditions to the gospel. You advocate once must walk in obedience to actually be saved. Sin is transgression of the Law - and you continually harp on about "practicing" sin is a sign one is not saved. There are no conditions to the free gift. Again, God will chastise a wandering child, but will never cast them out or lose them.

And as far as reporting me for saying you are a Judaizer; It's a proper Biblical term. The same as when I said you are a hypocrite. No malice intended - they're just simple facts.

FYI, if memory serves, the only time I ever reported someone was for a physical threat. You report me because you don't like a term. It's childish - "He called me a name! I'm telling!"

Yet you soon forget that in the other thread you called us "sharks". Which brings us right back to the hypocrite charge, doesn't it?

Repost...Did not address to Budman

OK Bud, so here's the deal. I will wait for you to accept or reject my invitation to formally debate according to the format above, with appropriate time limit. (or we could discuss format if you want) If you accept, we will have the debate, and then we can close the discussion instead of each of us answering 10-20 posts a day all scattered and willy nilly. It can all be layed out nice and clean. SO what do you say?

I may or may not be away for a couple days, but I will be back at least by Saturday if not sooner, (unless providence prevents me) to see if you accepted my invitation

 

[Macabeus]

My loyalty is to the truth PAL........make no mistake about it......!!

Romans 6:1- Comments...

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Regardless of what Bud says, the issue is does a Christian "continue, persist in sin". The word "continue" is a translation of the Greek word "epimeno" which means

to persevere, continue; with the dative of the thing continued in (cf. Winer's De verb. comp. etc. Part ii., p. 10f): τῇ ἁμαρτία, Romans 6:1; τῇ ἀπιστία, Romans 11:23; τῇ πίστει, Colossians 1:23; in the work of teaching, 1 Timothy 4:16 (τῷ μή ἀδικεῖν, Xenophon, oec. 14, 7; τῇ μνηστεία, Aelian v. h. 10, 15); with the dative of the blessing for which one keeps himself fit: τῇ χάριτι, Acts 13:43 Rec.; τῇχρηστότητι, Romans 11:22; with a participle denoting the action persisted in: John 8:7 Rec.; Acts 12:16; cf. Buttmann, 299f (257); (Winer's Grammar, § 54, 4). Thayers lexicon

2

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

ie, how shall we who are dead perservere, continue, persist in sin.

3

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

the Old man died with Jesus.

4

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The new man was born. therefore, we are called to put off the old man and put on the new.

5

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

If we died with Him, we will live with Him.

6

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

We died with Christ, and in that death the body of sin was destroyed

destroyed-
katargeo-

1. to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
2. to deprive of force, influence, power

that henceforth we should not serve sin...because we are no longer slaves to it.

7

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

He that died with and was crucified with Christ is free from sin, that is free from slavery to sin, set free from the bondage of sin no longer under sin's dominion, because he or she died to it.

8

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

(see note on verse 5)

9

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Death has no power or authority over the risen Christ.

10

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

see above

11

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We are free from sin in position the moment we believe. That reality is worked out in our lives AS WE RECKON ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ.

12

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Since we are dead to sin, sin should not reign in our mortal bodies. Note- this is not saying a Christian is sinless. It is saying sin does not reign over us. Bud fails to distinguish between the two proposition.

13

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Since we are dead to sin, we are no longer slaves to sin, but we are slaves to God. SO we must forsake our FORMER master and yield to our new Master.

14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

SIn has no authority over us, because it has no longer any grounds to accuse us and subjegate us through guilt

15

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Grace is not a license to sin

16

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You are either a slave to sin or a slave to God. You cannot be both.

17

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

The verb were is past tense. We WERE slaves to sin, but no longer.

18

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

We have been set free from sin to serve a NEW MASTER, (righteousness)

19

I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Since we are free from sin and now servants of righteousness, we are to yield ourselves to our master, not sin which is not our master.

20

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

If you are a servant of sin, you cannot be a servant of righteousness. You can only serve one master

21

What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

We have been set free from sin, (no longer slaves of it) and are now servants of God.

23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

All of this is a gift of God's grace.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[Macabeus]

Romans 6:1- Comments...

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Regardless of what Bud says, the issue is does a Christian "continue, persist in sin". The word "continue" is a translation of the Greek word "epimeno" which means


to persevere, continue; with the dative of the thing continued in (cf. Winer's De verb. comp. etc. Part ii., p. 10f): τῇ ἁμαρτία, Romans 6:1; τῇ ἀπιστία, Romans 11:23; τῇ πίστει, Colossians 1:23; in the work of teaching, 1 Timothy 4:16 (τῷ μή ἀδικεῖν, Xenophon, oec. 14, 7; τῇ μνηστεία, Aelian v. h. 10, 15); with the dative of the blessing for which one keeps himself fit: τῇ χάριτι, Acts 13:43 Rec.; τῇχρηστότητι, Romans 11:22; with a participle denoting the action persisted in: John 8:7 Rec.; Acts 12:16; cf. Buttmann, 299f (257); (Winer's Grammar, § 54, 4).

Thayers lexicon

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

ie, how shall we who are dead perservere, continue, persist in sin.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

the Old man died with Jesus.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The new man was born. therefore, we are called to put off the old man and put on the new.

5

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

If we died with Him, we will live with Him.

6

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

We died with Christ, and in that death the body of sin was destroyed

destroyed-
katargeo-

1. to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
2. to deprive of force, influence, power

that henceforth we should not serve sin...because we are no longer slaves to it.

7

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

He that died with and was crucified with Christ is free from sin, that is free from slavery to sin, set free from the bondage of sin no longer under sin's dominion, because he or she died to it.

8

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

(see note on verse 5)

9

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him

.

Death has no power or authority over the risen Christ.

10

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

see above

11

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We are free from sin in position the moment we believe. That reality is worked out in our lives AS WE RECKON ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ.

12

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Since we are dead to sin, sin should not reign in our mortal bodies. Note- this is not saying a Christian is sinless. It is saying sin does not reign over us. Bud fails to distinguish between the two proposition.

13

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Since we are dead to sin, we are no longer slaves to sin, but we are slaves to God. SO we must forsake our FORMER master and yield to our new Master.

14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

SIn has no authority over us, because it has no longer any grounds to accuse us and subjegate us through guilt

15

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Grace is not a license to sin

16

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You are either a slave to sin or a slave to God. You cannot be both.

17

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

The verb were is past tense. We WERE slaves to sin, but no longer.

18

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

We have been set free from sin to serve a NEW MASTER, (righteousness)

19

I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Since we are free from sin and now servants of righteousness, we are to yield ourselves to our master, not sin which is not our master.

20

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

If you are a servant of sin, you cannot be a servant of righteousness. You can only serve one master

21

What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

We have been set free from sin, (no longer slaves of it) and are now servants of God.

23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

All of this is a gift of God's grace.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[gb9]

you do understand that there are 259 more chapters in the N.T. right? balance?

 

[Macabeus]

you do understand that there are 259 more chapters in the N.T. right? balance?

Yes, and they all agree with Romans 6.

If you find a chapter that disagrees with Romans 6, let me know.

I can do Romans 7-8 later, but I guess you won't be convinced of ANYthing unless a person covers every chapter.

 

[Macabeus]

you do understand that there are 259 more chapters in the N.T. right? balance?

Maybe I'll try to get to all of them...

Romans 7 comments

(addendum to comments on Romans 6 posted earlier. Romans 8 will follow shortly)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

The Law only has dominion over a person as long as they are alive.

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives, but if he dies, she is free to marry another. (same is true for husbands) Paul is going to use this as an analogy describing the believer and where he stands in regards to the Law.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Because we died with Christ, we are no longer "married" (joined to) the Law, but are now spiritually united to Christ.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

When we were in the flesh, sin was actually incited by the law.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Because of our union with Christ's death, we are dead to the Law, and sin has no more claim on us and are FREE to serve in NEWNESS OF LIFE.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The purpose of the Law was to expose sin

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

But the Law actually gave strength to sin.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Sin used the Law against us to bring us into condemnation.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The Law was a catalyst, bringing sin to the surface so that it can be identified and dealt with.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Our fallen nature and the Law are incompatible.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The Law shows that in our natural, fallen state, we are slaves to sin, and exposes the depths of our depravity

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

There is a law within us, that LEFT UNCHECKED, brings us into captivity. This is called the Law of sin. literally the reign of sin.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Meaning the situation is not hopeless. God has provided a way to freedom.

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

setting up chapter eight, which will show that we are no longer under the dominion/rule/slavery of sin, and show us how to walk in that REALITY.

King James Version (KJV)

Romans 8 to follow shortly.

Let me know if you find a chapter out of the 259 other chapters that disagree with Romans 7, GB9)

 

[Macabeus]

Romans 8 will follow. But you can save me some time if you find a chapter out of the other 259 chapters that disaagree with Romans 8. GB9.

 

[gb9]

Romans 8 will follow. But you can save me some time if you find a chapter out of the other 259 chapters that disaagree with Romans 8. GB9.

I have read the Bible all way through, probably about 16-18 times . I care not about your commentary.

what I do care about is this- we are saved by grace, it is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God.

now, when we talk about sanctification , that is a totally different subject. salvation is granted as soon as one truly believes . sanctification happens gradually, and looks different for everyone.

 

[TMS]

I know, the Forum is glutted with these Faith/Works threads.

But I'm interested in those that say 'by faith'...how much faith?

And those that say 'by works'...how much works?

It's not about how much.
How good is good enough??
It's about faith that results in works. Love that acts, principles that are seen. I can understand the gospel , go to church, and even say im a Christian that loves God. But if i act and speak like a selfish, mean, person (work of the flesh, Gal 5.19...), the faith is revealed.
Faith and works can't be seperated. Works are a manifestation of faith.

 

[NayborBear]

I have read the Bible all way through, probably about 16-18 times . I care not about your commentary.

what I do care about is this- we are saved by grace, it is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God.

now, when we talk about sanctification , that is a totally different subject. salvation is granted as soon as one truly believes . sanctification happens gradually, and looks different for everyone.

If this is the case concerning sanctification? You say it (just) happens? Gradually, over time. Like, if you've been a good do-be, and not a don't be, sanctification "just happens?"
Like there's no works, or efforts in one's earning a more "sanctified state?"

And because, sanctification just happens? Inasmuch as it causes one in behaving differently then their peers?
Could one's "peers" view this as "Works FOR Salvation?"

I find it hard to believe that something just happens.

 

[Macabeus]

I have read the Bible all way through, probably about 16-18 times . I care not about your commentary.

what I do care about is this- we are saved by grace, it is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God.

now, when we talk about sanctification , that is a totally different subject. salvation is granted as soon as one truly believes . sanctification happens gradually, and looks different for everyone.

Agreed. But sanctification follows BIBLICAL perameters, not just whatever perameter we want it to.

 

[Macabeus]

I have read the Bible all way through, probably about 16-18 times . I care not about your commentary.

what I do care about is this- we are saved by grace, it is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God.

now, when we talk about sanctification , that is a totally different subject. salvation is granted as soon as one truly believes . sanctification happens gradually, and looks different for everyone.

So if you want to know why I'm calling Bud to task, read the following quote and tell me what you think of it. (it is a partial quote, you can go to the post and read it in context)

A Christian can sin all they want and will still remain saved. A Christian can even stop believing in Jesus and still remain saved.

 

[gb9]

So if you want to know why I'm calling Bud to task, read the following quote and tell me what you think of it. (it is a partial quote, you can go to the post and read it in context)

i'm thinking he wrote that just to trigger you. ( and it worked, you are doing verse by verse commentary.)

 

[gb9]

If this is the case concerning sanctification? You say it (just) happens? Gradually, over time. Like, if you've been a good do-be, and not a don't be, sanctification "just happens?"
Like there's no works, or efforts in one's earning a more "sanctified state?"

And because, sanctification just happens? Inasmuch as it causes one in behaving differently then their peers?
Could one's "peers" view this as "Works FOR Salvation?"

I find it hard to believe that something just happens.

should have said a process, bad wording on my part.

sanctification is a process.

 

[NayborBear]

So if you want to know why I'm calling Bud to task, read the following quote and tell me what you think of it. (it is a partial quote, you can go to the post and read it in context)

Methinks, and this is just my humble opinion.
There are "many" believers, that have bought into "Love covers a multitude of sin." But, because of unbelief, or more nefarious "wool pulling" "ear tickling", have expanded "love?" That it now covers EVERY sin!
Bringing one to Christ also covers a "multitude of sin."
Join these 2 together? And, you have NO sin!
Wonder the WHY homosexuality is "overrunning" churches of stone?
Wonder the why, churches of stone, and even established schools and universities of higher biblical knowledge, are spitting out milky believers, and milky teachers, faster then a democrat can yell "RUSSIA!, RUSSIA!, RUSSIA?"

Well, there's your answer. which, seems to be gaining more and more traction, as people wonder more and more, "HOW DID WE GET TO THIS PLACE?"

 

[NayborBear]

should have said a process, bad wording on my part.

sanctification is a process.

Nevertheless, can you see how "peers" can view this "process" as "WORKS For Salvation?"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did we get an answer yet?

 

[crossnote]

It's not about how much.
How good is good enough??
It's about faith that results in works. Love that acts, principles that are seen. I can understand the gospel , go to church, and even say im a Christian that loves God. But if i act and speak like a selfish, mean, person (work of the flesh, Gal 5.19...), the faith is revealed.
Faith and works can't be seperated. Works are a manifestation of faith.

Fine. How much works?