Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[crossnote]

The white throne judgment and Christ's judgment seat are synonymous.

Nope. The White throne Judgment is a Judgment of works.
Revelation 20:12-13 ESV
[12] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. [13] And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

Believers will be here different Greek words,

2 Corinthians 5:10 ESV
[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Also don't forget...

John 5:24 ESV
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

So no, the White throne Judgment is not for believers.

 

[Journeyman]

I do not believe That is not the second comming,

Peter says,

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night 2Pet.3:10

This is how Jesus returns. The Son will come like a thief, but then also the Father will come like a thief 1000 years later? No.

That is the END, After satan had been released one more time and gets an army together, and God wipes them out and the end begins.

So your going to sit there and use this ONE EVENT to prove that the MANY MANYT OTHER EVENTS God said WILL happen. Will not happen?

No, I'm mot using one passage. Paul says the same thing,

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ 2Thes.1:7-8

My friend, this is the beast the whole world follows after,

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?....And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev.13:3-4,8

The beast and the world under his control go to war against the Lord and are destroyed, but then also Satan and the world under his control go to war against the Lord and are destroyed 1000 years later? No.

It's an insensible pattern. Satan is booted from heaven and has a short time, but then also is bound, loosed and has a little season (a short time) 1000 years later? No.

My point still stands. Your calling God a liar. And making his promises null and void. What good is my faith in God if he does not keep all of his promises he has made? My faith would be misplaced, That is one thing that is for sure.

I'm not calling God a liar. I'm trying to see the scriptures in light of what Jesus taught. Salvation is by faith in Jesus. When Jesus returns with millions of angels and millions of believers are transformed, nobody is going to need faith to believe in Jesus after that.

And no. The great white and judgment seat are not synonymous. Death and hades are DELIEVERED to christ in one. And the dead IN CHRIST are risen in the other.

Being made alive in Christ by the Holy Spirit has become meaningless to people. Concerning the judgment seat of Christ, Paul said,

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ....Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men 2Cor.5:10-11

It will leave no doubt he is God.

 

[Journeyman]

Nope. The White throne Judgment is a Judgment of works.
Revelation 20:12-13 ESV
[12] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. [13] And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

Believers will be here different Greek words,

2 Corinthians 5:10 ESV
[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

The judgment seat of Christ is also described here.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 1Cor.3:13

This text shows everyone's works will be exposed.

Also don't forget...

John 5:24 ESV
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

So no, the White throne Judgment is not for believers.

The word being interpreted "judgment" there, is the sense of condemnation, damnatiion. Of course people who hear the gospel and believe him won't be ashamed, but unbelievers who face Jesus as he truly is, as God, will be.

 

[crossnote]

The judgment seat of Christ is also described here.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 1Cor.3:13

This text shows everyone's works will be exposed.

That's what it says it is, 'the Judgment Seat of Christ' a judgment of believers in Christ, judging that which they have done, whether good or bad, but it is not unto condemnation.

The word being interpreted "judgment" there, is the sense of condemnation, damnatiion. Of course people who hear the gospel and believe him won't be ashamed, but unbelievers who face Jesus as he truly is, as God, will be.

Yes but that happens at the White Throne for unbelievers. Believers will have their works judged at the Bema seat, which includes 1Cor 3:13?

Our works have already been judged in Christ and have been found wanting...aka our sins.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Since when are hermeneutics important to an Amillennialist? If Josephus were alive during World War II, I am pretty sure that he would view the massacre of 6 million Jews as worse than the localized death toll in Jerusalem in 70 AD. Yes, I know how Josephus describes it. You want to confine the suffering to that specific time period because you have to to make your eschatology work. It doesn't work anyway, real-world, but that never stops people who want to take a literal translation and fulfillment of prophecy and toss it out the window while making it all allegory and spiritual in nature. "I know what it says, but it doesn't mean that" is the Amillennial game. And your trying to correct others?

As far as I know amill uses the historical-grammatical method.

You have completely missed the "cosmic" significance of the destruction brought on the Jews, the nation, temple. It would be somewhat like saying what is the importance of a localised death of one Jewish preacher between two criminals.

What is lost in the dispensationalist approach is when the "great and terrible" day of the Lord was to occur:

(Mal 4:5 Look, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the LORD arrives)

(Mal 4:6 He will encourage fathers and their children to return to me, so that I will not come and strike the earth with judgment.").

Malachi prophesied that he would send Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord.

Jesus stated that John the Baptist was indeed the prophet that Malachi spoke of:

(Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John appeared)

(Mat 11:14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, who is to come)

In revelation John states the that souls cried out for vengeance/judgment and we see that the great day of the Lord was coming after they had rested for a little while.

(Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Master, holy and true, before you judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?")

(Rev 6:11 Each of them was given a long white robe and they were told to rest for a little longer, until the full number was reached of both their fellow servants and their brothers who were going to be killed just as they had been)

(Rev 6:17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?)

The full number of John's revelation is directly related to the Jewish persecution of Jesus' first century disciples (Fill up then the measure of your ancestors)

(Mat 23:31 By saying this you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets.)

(Mat 23:32 Fill up then the measure of your ancestors!).

(Mat 23:34 "For this reason I am sending you prophets and wise men and experts in the law, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town)

(Mat 23:35 so that on you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.)

The motif of vengeance for shedding innocent blood is an important part of the story from Genesis to Revelation, the Jews in the 1st century had filled up the measure of righteous blood when destruction came on them to the uttermost.

(Rev 16:6 because they poured out the blood of your saints and prophets, so you have given them blood to drink. They got what they deserved ")

Peter speaks of what would happen in the last days THEY were living in:

(Acts 2:17 And in the last days it will be,' God says, 'that I will pour out my Spirit on all people, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.)

(Acts 2:20 The sun will be changed to darkness and the moon to blood before the great and glorious day of the Lord comes.)

In Acts we see that the great and glorious day of the Lord is the same great and dreadful day of the Lord of Malachi and the great day of his wrath in Johns revelation and is tied to the avenging of the blood of the martyrs that Jesus speaks of in Luke where He said he would avenge them quickly, not 2000 years into the future.

If Elijah came 2000 years before the great and dreadful day of the Lord then his appearing was somewhat premature.

After the destruction and judgement of the great city "Babylon" (Jerusalem) in the war with Rome we see that the prophets are told to rejoice for the avenging of the their blood.

(Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has pronounced judgment against her on your behalf !)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In Acts we see that the great and glorious day of the Lord is the same great and dreadful day of the Lord of Malachi and the great day of his wrath in Johns revelation and is tied to the avenging of the blood of the martyrs that Jesus speaks of in Luke where He said he would avenge them quickly, not 2000 years into the future.

I disagree with your earlier paragraph that suggests that "the day of the Lord" is only at the "end point" [of a certain time period, in your view the 70ad events]; I believe "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES at the START of the 7-yr trib and continues clear through the entire "promised and prophesied earthly MK age" [which also tackles how we understand 2Pet3:10-12 and its "IN WHICH" (meaning 'IN WHICH" time period MUCH will transpire!) and its Isaiah 34:4 verse not pulled out from its overall context, but viewing both chpts together, chpts 34-35 on the whole]; the part that says "GREAT and terrible/dreadful [DOTL]" referring to the second half of the (future) 7-yr trib (so the 'sixth SEAL' sign [following 'the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [plural]' Jesus spoke of, which EQUAL the SEALS of Rev6 and which FOLLOW (tho not immediately) the 70ad events, per Lk21:12!] comes AFTER the START of the DOTL [as a whole]). In the next post I'll supply something I've just posted elsewhere about how the Acts 2 passages should be understood.

But here I will point out the same wording again, the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" phrase (in your Luke 18:8 verse [see also end of chpt 17 for context]), where it says "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not "quickly [ADVERB]"); this parallels Rev1:1's "things which must come to pass [4:1 (7:3)] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (the 4:1(7:3)/1:19c "FUTURE" aspects of the Book that conclude with His Rev19 "RETURN" to the earth). This phrase is also parallel with the Romans 16:20 verse (this one addressed to "the Church which is His body" who will be in a distinct LOCATION when the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" thing stated here takes place); neither of them mean "soon [adverb]" or "immediately [adverb]" or "quickly [adverb]"... (and neither of them mean "over the course of some 2000 years, as the Historicist view has it, either)

[see next post about the Acts 2 passage... after I go find it and grab it ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[continuation of previous post]

Here's what I believe about the Joel 2 [and Acts 2] passage...

I believe when Peter said [in Acts 2] "THIS is that," that he spoke in specific reference to that which the others "saw" [and heard] that day (and which they had made specific comment in reference to), but not to the entire text he quoted (and I base this on what he then goes on to say further in Acts 3). Here's a commentary I fairly agree with, on this (with my comments below that, in the brackets and that which follows):

[quoting Wm Kelly commentary]

"As usual [speaking of the context of those persons in Acts 2], men arrange themselves in more than one class, some astonished, others hostile and scornful. Peter takes the lead in explaining with gravity and distinctness. He explicitly denies the unworthy thought of intoxication, which the early hour itself should have silenced as against God-fearing souls. It was really what Joel spoke of: not of course the fulfilment as it is to be in the last days, but an effusion of that nature. Indeed, the words of the prophet went in this beyond what that day saw accomplished; for 'all flesh' cannot fairly be limited to Israel, and God, Who was soon about to bring in Gentiles to the name of Christ, will bless the nations in the future kingdom, when all the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord, and all the kindred of the nations shall worship before Him [Daniel 7:27 (following the specific time period of v.25 [see also vv.20-21])]. The gospel now makes good the indiscriminate grace of God even more profoundly than will be under His future government, when He will show that the kingdom is Jehovah's, and that He is the governor among the nations.

"In the latter day, when Joel's words will be fulfilled as a whole, the Spirit will be poured out, and if Israel enjoy the blessing freely, it will flow far beyond their narrow limits. God's ways will then be known upon earth, His saving health among all nations. Temporal blessing is then to be vouchsafed to Israel (Joel 2:19-27), and their great northern enemy is to be for ever disposed of, for Jehovah will do great things for His people and land, whatever the enemy may have prepared to do. 'My people', He says emphatically, 'shall never be ashamed.' Then as a distinct intimation the prophet [Joel] presents two announcements: the first, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (vers. 28, 29); the second, external signs of judgment ushering in the days of Jehovah, the circumstances of which are detailed in Acts 3, till we come down to the closing account of their blessings once more. As the wonders above and below precede that day, so does the repentance of Israel prepare for their deliverance and blessing, and especially for the gift of the Spirit. We see the same principle here also.

"For God, in pouring out of His Spirit now, does thereby associate believers with Christ exalted on high. Given in virtue of redemption the Holy Spirit sheds the love of God in their hearts, seals them for the day of redemption, and is the earnest of their inheritance. He dwells in them now, and will quicken their mortal bodies soon at Christ's coming. Besides, He is the blessed and divine bond, constituting them Christ's body and God's house. [...]"

--William Kelly, Acts 2 Commentary [source: Bible Hub]

[end quoting; bold, underline, and bracketed insert mine; paranthesis outside my brackets original]


Acts 3:21 [speaking to "ye men of Israel," v.12 (unsaved persons as noted in v.13-15,17,19)] then states: "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [in contrast to that which He had heretofore kept "hidden in God"/was as of yet undisclosed]

In vv.13 and 26 the phrase "His Servant Jesus" (they had not been expecting the "suffering servant" aspects of His Person, only the "reigning-in-power King" aspects, though both aspects had been prophesied in the OT); and...

...there are TWO "raise" senses spoken of in Acts 3... v.15 speaking of His being "raised from the dead," but the other being "raised" to a position of prominence BEFORE His death (that is, to the position of 'a Prophet like unto Moses'...'raise up unto you of your brethren like unto me [/Moses]; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you' and 'UNTO YOU FIRST God, having raised up [to a position of prominence BEFORE His death] His Servant Jesus, SENT him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities'). The "ALL things which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets" (meaning, OT prophecies) have not yet been fully fulfilled, but remain for a yet-future time (and I believe Joel is one such prophecy).


The word "King" is only used [re: Jesus] TWO times in all of the epistles, and both of them are "future" [see Rev19:15b still speaking in "future tense"], 1Tim6:15 being one of those, says, "which IN HIS TIMES He SHALL SHEW [openly manifest], who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

--"the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of, come AFTER the 70ad events (per Lk21:12), [including the things in v.24a/b], and...

--"the beginning of birth PANGS" EQUAL the SEALS of Rev6 [which are WITHIN the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period], and...

--"the beginning of birth PANGS" ARRIVE with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (equaling the "whose COMING/arrival" of the man of sin "be revealed"; i.e. SEAL #1, the "prince THAT SHALL COME" of Dan9:27[26], "for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]")]"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope. The White throne Judgment is a Judgment of works.
Revelation 20:12-13 ESV
[12] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. [13] And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

Believers will be here different Greek words,

2 Corinthians 5:10 ESV
[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Also don't forget...

John 5:24 ESV
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

So no, the White throne Judgment is not for believers.

And again

Death and hades are DELIVERED to God in the great white throne, And ALL who go there are cast to the lake of fire (no one gets out)

Believers who have passed from death to life are resurrected By Christ himself, and even those who have their rewards burned, are still as paul says saved even as thought fire.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Peter says,

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night 2Pet.3:10

This is how Jesus returns. The Son will come like a thief, but then also the Father will come like a thief 1000 years later? No.

Again, That is not the context. The bible can not contradict itself. Which your making it do.

No, I'm mot using one passage. Paul says the same thing,

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ 2Thes.1:7-8

I am talking about all end times prophesies, not a few passages, THEY ALL MUST agree. Your making them contradict.

My friend, this is the beast the whole world follows after,

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?....And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev.13:3-4,8

The beast and the world under his control go to war against the Lord and are destroyed, but then also Satan and the world under his control go to war against the Lord and are destroyed 1000 years later? No.

The beast is a man, Just like nebachadnezzar was a man, He was the first beast or the head of Gold.
He is what John in the book of revelations says will attack the woman (israel) but the woman will be saved, So he goes after her offspring (the churhc) Why save the woman if at the end the end of the world is brought forward.

Jesus said during the great tribulation, it will be so severe ALL life on earth will be threated, So for the sake of the elect. He returns, Why return to save the lives of the elect if the end of the world is at his return

Jesus also said of this same time period. He who endures to the end will be saved. Why say they will be saved if again the world is destroyed.

This is not even speaking of the rest of end times prophesies concerning life on this earth and the nation of Isreal. All of which are meaningless. And will nto come true, if when christ returns at the end of tribulation, this world is wiped out.

So yes. You are causing the word to contradict.

It's an insensible pattern. Satan is booted from heaven and has a short time, but then also is bound, loosed and has a little season (a short time) 1000 years later? No.

yet that is what God says will happen.

He will be cast down, He takes over the beast, and starts a world war for a short time, at the end of this time, He is cut off by Christ himself. Who binds him for 1000 years. While at the same time, Christ rules in jerusalem. As the OT prophets said he would, At the end of the thousand years, Satan is realeased, and once again, he deceives many into thinking they can overcome christ, And christ wipes that final rebellion. THEN this world is destroyed, and a new heavens and new earth are made.

I'm not calling God a liar. I'm trying to see the scriptures in light of what Jesus taught. Salvation is by faith in Jesus. When Jesus returns with millions of angels and millions of believers are transformed, nobody is going to need faith to believe in Jesus after that.

Yes you are. All the things Jesus said WOULD happen. You claim they will not.or you spiritualise them away to make it APPEAR they have happened. As if Jesus did not know what he was talking about. Not to mention. The Prophesies which were given by God himself. Which you claim will not happen. And his promises to a nation which he will not bring to pass..

Being made alive in Christ by the Holy Spirit has become meaningless to people. Concerning the judgment seat of Christ, Paul said,

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ....Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men 2Cor.5:10-11

It will leave no doubt he is God.

Yes, the BEMA seat judgment (1 cor)

The BEMA seat and the GREAT WHITE THRONE judgments are two different events.

BEMA is a judgement where rewards are handed out. Like in the olympics. Where the victorious are rewarded

The great white throne judgment is a judgment of law. Where the guilty are judged and punishment is handed out.

I suggest you look up the greek words and study to see how different they are. Because your wrong

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's what it says it is, 'the Judgment Seat of Christ' a judgment of believers in Christ, judging that which they have done, whether good or bad, but it is not unto condemnation.

Yes but that happens at the White Throne for unbelievers. Believers will have their works judged at the Bema seat, which includes 1Cor 3:13?

Our works have already been judged in Christ and have been found wanting...aka our sins.

Again, the english texts have let people down

In 1 cor 5, the word judgment comes from the greak Bematos or bema. It means a raised step, a judgment seat, It is the same word used of a judge in the olympics or sporting events, where the judge awarded or judges who were the winners.

In rev the word judged is krino, which means to evaluate, to judge, to pass judgment, render a verdict. It is a judicial act of a person who has been charged with a crime, where they face the judge for judgment,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As far as I know amill uses the historical-grammatical method.

You have completely missed the "cosmic" significance of the destruction brought on the Jews, the nation, temple. It would be somewhat like saying what is the importance of a localised death of one Jewish preacher between two criminals.

What is lost in the dispensationalist approach is when the "great and terrible" day of the Lord was to occur:

(Mal 4:5 Look, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the LORD arrives)

(Mal 4:6 He will encourage fathers and their children to return to me, so that I will not come and strike the earth with judgment.").

Malachi prophesied that he would send Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord.

Jesus stated that John the Baptist was indeed the prophet that Malachi spoke of:

(Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John appeared)

(Mat 11:14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, who is to come)

In revelation John states the that souls cried out for vengeance/judgment and we see that the great day of the Lord was coming after they had rested for a little while.

(Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Master, holy and true, before you judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?")

(Rev 6:11 Each of them was given a long white robe and they were told to rest for a little longer, until the full number was reached of both their fellow servants and their brothers who were going to be killed just as they had been)

(Rev 6:17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?)

The full number of John's revelation is directly related to the Jewish persecution of Jesus' first century disciples (Fill up then the measure of your ancestors)

(Mat 23:31 By saying this you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets.)

(Mat 23:32 Fill up then the measure of your ancestors!).

(Mat 23:34 "For this reason I am sending you prophets and wise men and experts in the law, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town)

(Mat 23:35 so that on you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.)

The motif of vengeance for shedding innocent blood is an important part of the story from Genesis to Revelation, the Jews in the 1st century had filled up the measure of righteous blood when destruction came on them to the uttermost.

(Rev 16:6 because they poured out the blood of your saints and prophets, so you have given them blood to drink. They got what they deserved ")

Peter speaks of what would happen in the last days THEY were living in:

(Acts 2:17 And in the last days it will be,' God says, 'that I will pour out my Spirit on all people, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.)

(Acts 2:20 The sun will be changed to darkness and the moon to blood before the great and glorious day of the Lord comes.)

In Acts we see that the great and glorious day of the Lord is the same great and dreadful day of the Lord of Malachi and the great day of his wrath in Johns revelation and is tied to the avenging of the blood of the martyrs that Jesus speaks of in Luke where He said he would avenge them quickly, not 2000 years into the future.

If Elijah came 2000 years before the great and dreadful day of the Lord then his appearing was somewhat premature.

After the destruction and judgement of the great city "Babylon" (Jerusalem) in the war with Rome we see that the prophets are told to rejoice for the avenging of the their blood.

(Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has pronounced judgment against her on your behalf !)

The great and dreadful day of the lord is when the world will pass judgment on the earth, It is when God finally says enough is enough, I am done allowing evil to run rampant, I will take my vengence out on you.

It is also called the day of the lords wrath, And in rev 6 we are given a preview of this day, when the 6th seal is opened.
Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

So it is YOU who has missed the cosmic significants of these events,

 

[azamzimtoti]

The great and dreadful day of the lord is when the world will pass judgment on the earth, It is when God finally says enough is enough, I am done allowing evil to run rampant, I will take my vengence out on you.

It is also called the day of the lords wrath, And in rev 6 we are given a preview of this day, when the 6th seal is opened.
Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

So it is YOU who has missed the cosmic significants of these events,

"and the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place."

So the stars fall to earth, sky recedes like a scroll - there would be no people left to run or somewhere for them to run to.

The problem with the dispensational "literal" approach is failure to understand the nature of prophetic hyperbole to describe tumultuous events.

"said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb"

That John is speaking of a local event and not a cosmic event is evident from John's use of Jesus' words:

(Luke 23:28-29 But Jesus turned to them and said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For this is certain: The days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, the wombs that never bore children, and the breasts that never nursed!' )

(Luke 23:30 Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us!' and to the hills, 'Cover us!)

It should be obvious from the text that Jesus is speaking to the daughters of Jerusalem that were contemporary with Jesus.

"the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up"

Scroll down a bit:


(Isa 34:2-3 For the LORD is angry at all the nations and furious with all their armies. He will annihilate them and slaughter them. Their slain will be left unburied, their corpses will stink; the hills will soak up their blood.)

(Isa 34:4 All the stars in the sky will fade away, the sky will roll up like a scroll; all its stars will wither, like a leaf withers and falls from a vine or a fig withers and falls from a tree.)

(Isa 34:5 He says, "Indeed, my sword has slaughtered heavenly powers. Look, it now descends on Edom, on the people I will annihilate in judgment.")

Great example of celestial imagery used in the judgement of Edom and the surrounding nations.

Did the Lord unscroll the sky after this was done?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"and the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place."

So the stars fall to earth, sky recedes like a scroll - there would be no people left to run or somewhere for them to run to.

The problem with the dispensational "literal" approach is failure to understand the nature of prophetic hyperbole to describe tumultuous events.

Yawn

John wrote down what he saw. If we do not take John literally. And explained it in terms he understood and knew. Why would you or anyone else which to make him say things he did not mean?

Thats the problem with symbolic approach, you can make prophetic utterance say whatever you want it to say and there is no way to confirm or deny whether it happened or not. Meaning you have no way to verify prophesy. Meaning God is an author of confusion.

"said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb"

That John is speaking of a local event and not a cosmic event is evident from John's use of Jesus' words:

Once again, if you read the passage, It CAN NOT BE LOCAL EVENTS

I highlighted the words wcich chow us who the people were who said those words. As usaly. People have to ignore those things, and make up stuff.

Kings of the earth, That is not local.

(Luke 23:28-29 But Jesus turned to them and said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For this is certain: The days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, the wombs that never bore children, and the breasts that never nursed!' )

(Luke 23:30 Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us!' and to the hills, 'Cover us!)

It should be obvious from the text that Jesus is speaking to the daughters of Jerusalem that were contemporary with Jesus.

"the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up"

Scroll down a bit:

Daughters of jerusalem and kings of the earth are not the same, You can not equate them as equal.

Great men are men , Daughters of jerusalem are women

Rich men, commanders, mighty men, every slave and free man. Again, these are men, nbot the same as daughters of jerusalem.

So no, nice try but no cigar my friend.

Ps. What is funny

You take daughters of jerusalem literally. But starts falling symbolically.

Lol..That is what is so great about trying to discuss eschatology with amills. They say things which prety much contradict their own reasoning.

 

[crossnote]

The problem with the dispensational "literal" approach is failure to understand the nature of prophetic hyperbole to describe tumultuous events.

"said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb"

That John is speaking of a local event and not a cosmic event is evident from John's use of Jesus' words:

The simple context indicates otherwise...

Revelation 6:15-16 (KJV) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

They are described in global terms.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The simple context indicates otherwise...

Revelation 6:15-16 (KJV) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

They are described in global terms.

There were no kings (plural) in jerusalem plain and simple.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The problem with the dispensational "literal" approach is failure to understand the nature of prophetic hyperbole to describe tumultuous events.

Nah, I've already pointed out the way it's used in Daniel 8:10 (granted, some pre-tribbers might take some things overly-literally when they shouldn't, but not all pre-tribbers [or Premills]); I think the greater problem lies with Amill-teachings and Preterist-teachings that disregard "chronology" and the SEQUENCE issues (I've tried pointing out)... see the bottom two paragraphs of the following post I made awhile back (pertaining to the SEQUENCE issues of Matthew 22:7 and Matthew 22:8, in particular):

[quoting that post]

[re: Palm Sunday fulfillment of the 69 Weeks] that was the very day that:

--Jesus spoke the words of Luke 19:41-44 ("he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, 'If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. [...]"); and

--Jesus did the action of Zechariah 9:9 ("thy King cometh unto thee" [unto Jerusalem / the city (see Dan9:24-"Seventy Weeks are determined upon thy [Daniel's] people, and upon thy [Daniel's] holy city...")]); and

--thus also fulfilling Exodus 12:2,3,5,6 ("In the tenth day of this month" ["the first month of the year to you"], "ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.") This fulfills the "be cut off" ("and after 62 Week shall he be cut off, but not for himself [or, and have nothing]" Dan9:26a [note: this verse has SEQUENTIAL THINGS in it, followed by the SEQUENTIAL THINGS in v.27a/b/c!])


The next thing in the SEQUENCE ^ was not the 70th Week, but the "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" (also Dan9:26, here 26b+; i.e. the 70ad events).

And we know from the preceding lessons ( ) that the 70ad events must take place "BEFORE all these [BEFORE all of the BEGINNING of birth PANGS (PLURAL; Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11; again see that in verse 12 "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" [BEFORE all these BEGINNING of birth PANGS (which commence [as BEING-->]"the SEALS"])];

...and we can therefore see what the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" consists of: Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" at the START of the beginning of birth pangS [meaning, at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]"]; which "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100]" is then parallel to:

--Daniel 9:26-27's "prince THAT SHALL COME" / who will do the "FOR ONE WEEK [7-yrs]" thing (here, its BEGINNING, its MIDDLE, its END: Dan9:27a/b/c); and

--parallel to the "whose COMING/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" 2Th2:9a of "the man of sin" and recall from verse 6, that is, "IN HIS TIME" (the "IN THE NIGHT" portion of "the Day of the Lord [TIME PERIOD]"--see also 1Th5:2-3 [its ARRIVAL] / Dan7:7 [its 'government' so to speak] / Dan7:8 [its 'person of interest' so to speak (also vv.20-21)] / Gen46:2 [its 'focus' or 'aim'] / and see also "the time of JACOB'S trouble" / as well as Hosea 5:15's "in their affliction, they [Israel] will seek me early/earnestly"); 2Th2 also covering the man of sin and his BEGINNING (v.9a), his MIDDLE (v.4), and his END (v.8b); and

--parallel with SEAL #1 (the rider of the white horse, with a bow [very often representing 'deception'], at the START of the 7-yrs, the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that Revelation 1:1 speaks of, regarding the "FUTURE ASPECTS" of that Book [see also 4:1 compared with 1:1; and 7:3 compared with 1:1]); and

--parallel with the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" of Lk18:8 [chpt 17-end]: "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," AND Romans 16:20 (<--this one, regarding [to/for/about] "the Church which is His body"; see also 1Cor6:3[14]--one of the PURPOSES of our Rapture ['IN THE AIR'])


^ this SEQUENCE I am pointing out ^ , is also reflected in the Matthew 22:7-8 verses, with verse 7 speaking of the 70ad events (see Lk21:23,20, etc), and verse 8 then speaking of the "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" (that necessarily takes place AFTER the 70ad events [just named]; and which I believe correlates with [the LATER 95ad] Revelation 1:1's wording "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" [not things which will unfold over the course of some 2000 years, and not "immediateLY/quickLY/soon [adverbs]"], and which 'future things' [comp.1:1 to 4:1] lead up to His Second coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, i.e. chpts 6-19, the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" future, specific/limited time period leading up to the earthly MK age which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19)

The "SEALS" are "the beginning of birth PANGS" (and these "kick off" the 7-yr trib), ALL of which FOLLOW "the 70ad events [including "they shall be led away captive into all the nations" per Lk21:24!!]" (but not "immediately follow" 70ad )

[end of that post]

 

[azamzimtoti]

Yawn

John wrote down what he saw. If we do not take John literally. And explained it in terms he understood and knew. Why would you or anyone else which to make him say things he did not mean?

That's your problem right here EG, you are taking John's use of known prophetic judgment hyperbole and trying to make it literal.

More examples:

(Hosea 10:5-7 The inhabitants of Samaria will lament over the calf idol of Beth Aven. Its people will mourn over it; its idolatrous priests will wail over it, because its splendor will be taken from them into exile. Even the calf idol will be carried to Assyria, as tribute for the great king. Ephraim will be disgraced; Israel will be put to shame because of its wooden idol. Samaria and its king will be carried off like a twig on the surface of the waters.)

(Hosea 10:8 The high places of the "House of Wickedness" will be destroyed; it is the place where Israel sins. Thorns and thistles will grow up over its altars. Then they will say to the mountains, "Cover us!" and to the hills, "Fall on us!)

The judgement of Babylon uses the same "cosmic" imagery as Jesus and John:

(Isa 13:1 This is a message about Babylon that God revealed to Isaiah son of Amoz)

(Isa 13:6 Wail, for the LORD's day of judgment is near; it comes with all the destructive power of the sovereign judge.)

(Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.)

(Isa 13:9 They panic - cramps and pain seize hold of them like those of a woman who is straining to give birth. They look at one another in astonishment; their faces are flushed red.)

(Isa 13:10 Indeed the stars in the sky and their constellations no longer give out their light; the sun is darkened as soon as it rises, and the moon does not shine.)

See Matt 24:29 for similar usage of "cosmic" figurative/hyperbolic language used in Isa 13:10.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's your problem right here EG, you are taking John's use of known prophetic judgment hyperbole and trying to make it literal.

Thats your problem my friend

John said he wrote about things which have happened, are happening in his time, and will happen later.

John did not speak in hyperbowl. Thats your flaw.

More examples:

(Hosea 10:5-7 The inhabitants of Samaria will lament over the calf idol of Beth Aven. Its people will mourn over it; its idolatrous priests will wail over it, because its splendor will be taken from them into exile. Even the calf idol will be carried to Assyria, as tribute for the great king. Ephraim will be disgraced; Israel will be put to shame because of its wooden idol. Samaria and its king will be carried off like a twig on the surface of the waters.)

(Hosea 10:8 The high places of the "House of Wickedness" will be destroyed; it is the place where Israel sins. Thorns and thistles will grow up over its altars. Then they will say to the mountains, "Cover us!" and to the hills, "Fall on us!)

The judgement of Babylon uses the same "cosmic" imagery as Jesus and John:

(Isa 13:1 This is a message about Babylon that God revealed to Isaiah son of Amoz)

(Isa 13:6 Wail, for the LORD's day of judgment is near; it comes with all the destructive power of the sovereign judge.)

(Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.)

(Isa 13:9 They panic - cramps and pain seize hold of them like those of a woman who is straining to give birth. They look at one another in astonishment; their faces are flushed red.)

(Isa 13:10 Indeed the stars in the sky and their constellations no longer give out their light; the sun is darkened as soon as it rises, and the moon does not shine.)

See Matt 24:29 for similar usage of "cosmic" figurative/hyperbolic language used in Isa 13:10.

Kings of the earth,

Spoken about the time of Gods wrath. Which was occurring on the earth.

You can post a million verses in attempts or prove your right, it will not help you. They do not support your hyperbole theory.

John saw things which were going to happen. And explained them in a way he could explain them.

He witnessed the great tribulation and saw events of things which will happen on the day of Gods wrath on the EARTH,

If one looks at it. Revelation (parts of it) are an addition to Daniel prophecies. They have the same characters and alot of the same events.

It is easy to see. One just has to get rid of the hyperbole theories and take prophecy for its INTENDED PURPOSE. To PROPVE TO THE WORLD. That the GOD of the world IS THE ONE TRUE GOD.

it is gods character we are discussing here. Not some symbolic means to make ones belief come true.

 

[azamzimtoti]

The simple context indicates otherwise...

Revelation 6:15-16 (KJV) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

They are described in global terms.

Not really, the simple context is the great city (Jerusalem or Babylon as John calls it) that slaughtered the prophets:

(Rev 14:19-20 So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes from the vineyard of the earth and tossed them into the great winepress of the wrath of God. Then the winepress was stomped outside the city, and blood poured out of the winepress up to the height of horses' bridles for a distance of almost two hundred miles)

The motif is from Jesus statement:

(Mat 21:33 "Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a fence around it, dug a pit for its winepress, and built a watchtower. Then he leased it to tenant farmers and went on a journey.)

(Mat 21:37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.')

(Mat 21:39 So they seized him, threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him.)

(Mat 21:40-41 Now when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" They said to him, "He will utterly destroy those evil men! Then he will lease the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his portion at the harvest."