Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14
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Hi Dino
What does not fall into place, prophecy under the manner of tongues ? God mocking the those who mock Him? Once the sign is confirmed then the rest of the doctrine falls into place.
Most ignore the foundation in Isaiah 28 making the tongues doctrine without effect so that the oral tradition of men become the new commandment of men. And yet for all that they still refuse to believe (exercise faith)
Your doctrine doesn't fall into place. You keep asserting what is in bold above, but that does not make sense at all in Acts 10. There were no unbelieving Jews present... none to hear, as you say, God mocking their unbelief through other tongues.
In other words no need for a sign that spoke against them. No need for a sign when there are no oral traditions of men like that of the faithless Jews or faithless gentiles to appose the word of God and make it without effect. Seeing no man can serve two masters. And yet for all that they still refuse to believe in God as a sign against them .
Confirm what the sign of mocking lips represents and who it is in respect to and the rest of the doctrine of tongues will fall into place as a oral tradition of men.
I will offer what I would call a good example below that confirms who and what the sign point to..
As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. Jeremiah 44: 16 -17
Soberxp,
Thanks for commenting on the thread.
You've presented an idea that I'm actually surprised more people haven't used.
What I recommend as a method of testing your potential definition of "speaking in tongues".... is to write it on a piece of paper (so you know you aren't secretly changing definitions as you go). Then SLOWLY re-read 1 Corinthians 14 and purposefully replace each mention of "speaking in tongues" with the definition written on your piece of paper to see if it fits as a worthy definition. If you really think it does, try running that same test in the 4 biblically documented outpourings (Acts 2, 8, 10, 19) to see if that definition would do what outloud speaking of 'unknown' (babbly-sounding) tongues would do.
And if you're willing to, please let me know what you find out (in private message if need be).
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
First point.
Grace is Jesus Christ. If your using grace to mean something else other than Jesus Christ you are misinterpreting scripture.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
You are using grace to mean a gift. When in fact Grace does not mean a gift, grace is Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace (JESUS CHRIST) are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Read closely, through faith.. Faith in what? Grace? No. Through faith in Jesus Christ.
Translation: For by Jesus Christ are ye saved through faith. It is the gift of God. (Salvation is the gift of God)
Second point.
Baptizm is not man made. It was given by God. Jesus was not baptized to please men, He did the Fathers will. He shut the pharisees down by revealing to them that they refused to see baptizm was from God.
Mark 11:27 And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders,
28 And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?
29 And Jesus answered and said unto them,
30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him?
32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.
Now we all know by what authority Jesus acted upon. The pharisees did not want to answer because they couldn't answer truthfully. The pharasees are children of the devil. But in this encounter we can see water baptizm comes from heaven. And if you deny this then you are in error.
Third point.
We baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. Because Jesus said to baptize in the name (singular) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the name of the Father. Jesus inherited His name from His Father. It was given to Him. He revealed to us the name of the Father.
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Matthew 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?
11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Deat Kelby, I dont want struggle you, anymore.
You are all convinct from your expierience and your teachings.
But till now, no pentecostal ore charismatic was able to show me from the scripture that it was taught that speaking in tongues is the proof that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit. The basic of your doctrine.
(Acts 2,10 and 19 i cant count, because it can be interpretet different.)
Also nobody could show me that this was taught during the churchhistory.
It began in 1901, this why the pentecostals are proud to Call it the beginning of their movement.
If we would live in the Year 40 ore 50 ad i would agree fully with the teachings in 1. Cor. 12 and 14.
But all teachings we have today hat their beginning in 1901. And many different teachings Followed. ( oneness pentecostals, different charismatic movements)
Today the most of the pentecostals and charismatics Work to an oekomene among christians together with the RCC.
They claim they have the Holy Spirit baptism and be filled with him, but accept false teachings.
How I can trust such an Doctrine?
I entered this thread, because in your Headline you spoke about truth.
Truth works not together with lie. And I dont believe that the Holy Spirit supports lie ore false Doctrines.
Have a blessed Day.
The montanism from around 160 ad Till around the 6th century.
The Irvingians (Catholic Apostolic Church)
George Fox (1624-1691) founder of the children of light(quaker)
The Mormons
Is this sufficient?
Garee, your response suggests that you didn't even begin to get the point I'm making.
In Acts 10, Cornelius spoke in tongues upon believing. God was not mocking any unbelieving Jews through other tongues, because there were no unbelieving Jews present to hear; therefore, your view cannot be correct and comprehensive! There must be more to "speaking in tongues" than what you claim.
I will say this one last time, the things that you object to; such as, man's need to be buried with Jesus Christ in baptism I have quoted directly from the Word of God.
In addition, Paul's comments that you include pertain to his old way of thinking about himself due to his Jewish heritage where he denied Christ and fixated on the Law. His statement has nothing to do with following the instructions given on the Day of Pentecost. Paul had been trying to obtain righteousness through the OT law instead of having faith in the message of Christ that brings man back into right standing with God.
Hi Dino thanks for the reply
There were no unbelievers there .God uses a Jew to represent unbelief in this case. The sign is against all who refuse to believe God.
You could say the sign was silent.
Just as when one would offer the gospel and God does not give another the gift of interpretation needed to believe His prophecy .
They should remain silent as a sign they heard God's instruction. 1 Corinthains 14:28
Because there was no unbelieving Jew there it does not make the sign without effect as if there were unbelievers there. .
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 1 Corinthains 14:28
When there is the gift of interpretation needed to hear prophecy the gospel can be preached. When there is a faithless Jew or Gentile , the sign that confirm unbelief (no faith) takes affect.
But there were no unbelievers present, Jew or Gentile. God did not use a Jew to represent unbelief in this case.
No, you couldn't, because Cornelius actually spoke in tongues. That's what I've been telling you all along. You can't say that tongues always confirms unbelief according to Isaiah 28, and make up a convenient excuse where your interpretation simply doesn't fit the text. Acts 10 simply doesn't fit with your view, therefore your view cannot be correct.
Respectfully, that's all irrelevant becasuse there were no faithless persons present in Acts 10.
I think it has much to do with how we use the word faith as to where it come from and how it is used throughout the Bible. .
Believing God or exercising the faith of Christ is a work he works in and with us (Emanuel) that are yoked with him to both will and do His good pleasure as a imputed righteousness
John6: 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that "ye believe" on him whom he hath sent. (Not of our own selves as in false pride. )
Is faith a work or labor of love.? If so inspect to who? The scriptures informs us men are born with no faith, none.
Christ must do the first work giving us ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches as our first love.
With all due respect .Yes, the sign remained silent, no need to show unbelief in that case.
Tongue as prophecy remains the same. God mocking those who mock him in unbelief.(no faith) Those in Acts where believers they had the faith that comes from hearing prophecy in any language .
When Paul who spoke prophecy (tongues) and there was no one there given the gift of interpretation of prophecy.
There was no one that could believe, faith needed to believe God not seen was not given. Then the speaker bringing prophecy as tongues, should remain silent.
Okay. You're being inconsistent, and to demonstrate it, I will blithely declare that all "speaking in tongues" spoken of in 1 Corinthians were the same as the Acts 10 case. No need to show unbelief in those cases. Further, all tongues-speaking in the modern church is the same as the Acts 10 case; no need to show unbelief in these cases.
By the way, there was no interpretation of tongues in Acts 10.
Your argument just collapsed completely.
Apparently, you identify grace as unmerited favor, but New Testament grace is the power of Holy Spirit poured out on His body. Look at the word in both testaments Rodger. Quit denying.
What I object to is a bloodless gospel. Only the blood of Christ can atone for sin. Water baptism cannot fulfill the essential atonement made by the blood of Christ. Christ did all that God the Father required to redeem our souls. We are made alive by the Holy Spirit the moment we believe that Christ takes our sin and gives us eternal life. Water baptism is not essential for salvation and not required to receive the Holy Spirit.
We are saved by grace or we are not saved. Unsaved folks going about to establish this and that as necessary for salvation is just what religious folks do instead of simply trusting Christ.
I have no problem with you quoting the word of God it is just that you draw entirely incorrect conclusions about the scripture you cite. It requires the presence of the Holy Spirit to reach the correct conclusions and the Holy Spirit only abides in hearts that have been quickened by grace.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You wish to create your own truths about Gods Holy Spirit. Your ideas do not come from sound doctrine.
Grace is how God deals with sinful lost men. Grace is God withholding deserved wrath and ministering to souls in love. Forgiveness of sin and newness of life in Christ instead of eternal condemnation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Grace- the divine influence upon the heart with its reflection in the life, including gratitude. NT. Is this not the work of Holy Spirit? Unmerited yes, but power.
Humility. Lord be merciful to me a sinner. Create in me a new heart. The power to make a dead soul alive in Christ unto eternal life.
For the cause of Christ
Roger