Must all dispensationalists believe in cessation of miracles?

[oyster67]

Certainly not. I have received all sorts of miracles in my life, healing included. Medical professionals and their pills get waaayyyy to much credit these days.

 

[Guojing]

6. And then it changed.

At the end of Acts, in Ch 28:25-28 after Paul's all-day gathering with the Jews, their rejection meant Israel's second chance expired. Paul's parting proclamation in Acts 28:25-28 "..And when they AGREED NOT among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, 'well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: for the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. BE IT KNOWN THEREFORE unto you, THAT THE SALVATION OF GOD IS SENT UNTO THE GENTILES, and that they will hear it'". - This is the moment. This is the great dispensational divide. The prophetic clock of Daniel - the 70 sevens, has stopped ticking. The end did not come - not yet. Israel are set aside.

So what changed?

(Post-Acts epistles: Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon).

Before:

Miracles - healing, tongues, prophecy, resurrections, even Paul sending his scarf could heal.
Gifts - healing, tongues, prophecy,..
Urgency - the time is short, do not marry.
Church - israel 'the bride', christ the bridegroom. gentiles 'grafted in' to the olive tree of israel (but the axe is ready). 'since' the foundation of the world.
Scriptural? - many OT proofs, 'the Law and Prophets', 'none other things'
Law observance - the Jews still observed the Law (they had to for credibility), Gentiles only need to keep ceremonially clean "abstain from blood, sexual immorality" (Acts 15), had timothy circumcised.
Status - Jew first
Hope - earthly kingdom ('kingdom OF heaven' on earth - '..your will be done, on earth as in heaven..')

After:

Miracles - no mention of miracles - praying for 'recovery', 'take wine for your stomach pain', 'i left trophimus sick'
Gifts - (eph 4) apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers
Urgency - no mention; marry, have children.
Church - 'the body' with Christ the head, no more Jew/Gentile, one new man. chosen 'before' the foundation of the world.
Scriptural? - not in the OT. 'by revelation', 'mystery, hid in god', 'in other ages, not made known', 'unsearchable riches'.
Law and Prophets practice - 'abolished', 'let no man judge you in respect to food, drink, holy days, sabbaths', circumcision is 'mutilators of the flesh'
Status - No more Jew/Gentile, the two made one
Hope - not fully clear, but seems our destination is IN heaven, rather than to the earthly kingom, which is 'OF heaven', he has 'blessed us with all spiritual blessings IN THE HEAVENLIES in Christ' (eph 1).

But did the people understand the new message? did the Jews like the idea of the law being abolished? not really - 'all those in asia have turned away from me'


7. So what next?

Somehow, some time, this dispensation must close, like a parenthesis, and the old one resume for the OT prophecies to be fulfilled, the 70 sevens of Daniel to complete, the temple, the daily sacrifices, the antichrist, the desolation, the return of Christ to setup his kingdom..

Rom 11:25-27 "For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE NATIONS HAS COME IN. And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, 'There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins.'"


Wrap up.

Well, that was a bit long - it certainly could've been longer - but hopefully it is enough to layout some of the thinking. I'm no expert at this, most of this has been taught to me by others, so I may struggle for the inevitable backlash, but I stand by it. Some of this is subtle and confusing, and particularly if you stick to one English version or another it may not stack up (we have different translations for a reason - its not so easy a task and often the original text can be translated in completely different ways), it takes time. But once you 'see' it there is no going back. It will take me some convincing to ditch it for something other than an end-Acts dispensational divide.

I didn't really answer the original question on miracles now or not, but to be brief - I believe that miracles can happen now, but certainly not in the same way as during the gospels and Acts period. At that time, miracles were for a SIGN (to SIGNify) to Israel that the kingdom was indeed AT HAND. After Israel failed to accept that, at the end-Acts, the purpose for these miracles was gone, so the miracles ceased.

Now this failure of Israel was planned for by God, it just wasn't documented in prophecy. If it was, they would have an excuse that it was not their fault, so it was "hid in God". But also, because there is a war ongoing between God and Satan, so this 'mystery' (secret) was hidden from Satan too. But now this current dispensation has a whole new purpose, and seems to be related to the reparation of the damage done IN HEAVEN at Satans' fall.

Okay, okay, stopping.
(exhausted now..)

Thanks for your reply. One thing I am beginning to learn more and more is that the Jews love signs and without signs, they are very hesitant to believe. Here are some verses

Matthew 16:1-4

The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven. But He replied to them, "When it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.' "And in the morning, 'There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?

Mark 8:11-12

The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him. Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, "Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation."

Matthew 12:38-39

Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;

Luke 11:29

As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah.

Luke 11:16

Others, to test Him, were demanding of Him a sign from heaven.

Luke 12:54-56

And He was also saying to the crowds, "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'A shower is coming,' and so it turns out. "And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, 'It will be a hot day,' and it turns out that way. "You hypocrites! You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time?

Luke 23:8

Now Herod was very glad when he saw Jesus; for he had wanted to see Him for a long time, because he had been hearing about Him and was hoping to see some sign performed by Him.

John 2:18

The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?"

John 4:48

So Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe."

John 6:30

So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?

1 Corinthians 1:22

For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;

That is a lot of passages that mentioned this!

So from this perspective, I can understand why dispensationalists tend to believe that the age of signs has passed under dispensation of Grace.

Of course, I do see and hear testimonies of healings from church every now and then, so my conclusion is, miracles still exist now but not as much as during the 4 Gospels and Acts. So I do agree with you to a large extent.

 

[Guojing]

I believe the age of grace started on the day of penticost when the Holy Spirit came and dwelled in the Apostles.. The age of grace was already established before Paul converted.. In fact Paul who was Saul was actually engaged in a war against those who where already saved by Grace through the LORD Jesus Christ..

I do agree with you. But what about to the Gentiles? Do you think it was significant that, only when Stephen was stoned, then the very next chapter talks about the HS telling Peter in a vision to make a special trip to the Gentiles?

 

[Adstar]

See...now you are embellishing and trying to switch gears mid stride....your comment was clear and not correct.......YOU SAID the following which had NOTHING to do with blasphemy of the SPIRIT....

You said....GOD forgave DAVID'S sin of adultery and murder, BUT the REST of HIS SINS were not forgiven until<<<<exactly what you implied and said.....FALSE and make no mistake.....no disrespect implied or meant, but to say what you said was idiotic......

Adstar said:
I am referring to eternal grace.......

Of course God forgave people in the OT of specific sins and in Davids case it was his sin of adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband.. But other sins of David would not be forgiven until Jesus atoned for them on the cross..

Again you are purposely being provocative declaring me to be a idiot..

But again if what you are preaching is true and God could completely forgive David of all His sins in his life time without the need for the Atoning sacrifice of the LORD Jesus Christ.. Then why did Jesus come in the flesh and lay down His life willingly on the cross? If you are correct in your doctrine then there was No need whatsoever for Jesus to suffer death on the cross.. You and I and the rest of humanity could be treated by God as you declare God treated David.. He could simply forgive us of all our sins we have ever commited in our lives without any need for the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ as you believe he did for David..

You really need to stop throwing about the denigration of calling others stupid and idiots...

Disagree with me if you will.. So be it.. But don't be so quick to denigrate others for their views which they can support with logical arguments..

 

[Adstar]

I do agree with you. But what about to the Gentiles? Do you think it was significant that, only when Stephen was stoned, then the very next chapter talks about the HS telling Peter in a vision to make a special trip to the Gentiles?

Well the message was supposed to be given to the Jews first then the gentiles.. So if you are talking about when salvation first came to the gentiles then that is different to the day of Pentecost.. That was when Peter was given the dream about consuming unclean animals and was told by God not to call unclean what He had made clean.. Peter when to that home of the gentile family of Cornelius and preached to them and they received the Holy Spirit.. So at the moment the first gentile received the baptism of the Holy Spirit the age of grace had arrived for the gentiles..

It has been a while since i have read the account so i just looked it up again to make sure i got it right: So this is when salvation first came to the gentiles..

Acts 10: KJV
9 "¶ On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: {10} And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, {11} And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: {12} Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. {13} And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. {14} But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. {15} And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. {16} This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. {17} Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon’s house, and stood before the gate, {18} And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there. {19} ¶ While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. {20} Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them. {21} Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come? {22} And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee."

 

[rodders2828]

Certainly not. I have received all sorts of miracles in my life, healing included. Medical professionals and their pills get waaayyyy to much credit these days.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I'd be curious to know what those miracles were.

I have a pentecostal friend who is adamant he's seen many 'amazing' miracles as well, but I remain very skeptical. I went to one of his church meetings one time and they had their 'healing' moment and the leader was asking for anyone to come forward. Saying 'i feel there is someone here with a bad leg, ..or maybe a thigh, ..anyone?' almost pleading for a volunteer to front up and 'be healed'. I don't remember if he got anyone for that, but I think there was one or two complaining of the usual 'headache' or 'bad back'. And of course we've all seen those television ministries with their healing line up, again bad backs and headaches abound and afterward they seem to 'feel better'; but it all seems a bit of a crock to me. Sometimes I think the leaders genuinely believe they are helping, and are themselves partially being duped by 'helpful' congregation, and sometimes i think the leaders are straight out charlatans and taking advantage of people's desperation. In all, I have never seen anything convincing.

I also have a number of friends who grew up in pentecostal churches and who had genuine health problems (including cancer, deafness, and other chronic diseases) and have been to countless 'healing' sessions, and praying and believing as hard as they can, but to no avail. The leaders have been angry at them for making them look bad (in essence pressuring them to claim success), and they have been accused of 'not having enough faith' - typically being quoted James 5.14-15 which says 'is anyone of you sick? he should call the elders of the church to pray over him .. and the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well'. But a careful read you can see it is the faith of the elder making the prayer, not the faith of the sick person. And it says it WILL heal them. I don't see this certainty today at all. Today is much like the later epistles, where we see recovery rather than instant change.

And it is these very experiences (as well as discovering other inconsistencies) which started my friends on the dispensational path (and they have never looked back).

Now, I can never say for certain whether what we have today are genuine miracles or not (I don't doubt miracles can occur at any time throughout history), but sticking to the bible there are clear differences between before/after end-Acts. So I remain stubbornly skeptical.

I saw an article some years back on someone who did some follow up on supposed miracle cures, and these were only the short list that the ministries selected as their top picks. The investigator followed up with each of them (there was around 10 or so, from memory), and the result was NONE of them were genuinely healed. One who was 'healed' from cancer died within a year or two, others who had some other ailments continued to need their medication, and so on. In the end, it seems they probably just went along with it because of the pressure, and maybe they even felt pretty pumped at the time, but all up they would have left disappointed.

I feel terrible that I'm so cynical about it, but to me I'm just not convinced. And because I believe it is not scriptural, I will take some convincing. I want to see just one that I can say 'well, that one's not faking it'.

 

[Absolutely]

Seems there are quite a number here who believe in "rightfully dividing the word of truth". I am a "mid-dispensationalist", meaning that I believed the dispensation of grace began only with the salvation of the Apostle Paul in mid Acts, the mystery program, the church where Jews and Gentiles are equal, began only then at Acts chapter 9.

One thing I am still trying to decide is whether miracle signs of healing have indeed ceased at this age of the church. It appears that many dispensationalists, such as C R Stam, Les Feldick, and the owner of the blog doctrine.org, all share the view that there is no more miracles of healing for today.

Is that necessarily the case? I am in a church where apparently, there are people who testify about miracles of healing. We were also taught that, in Paul's epistles, the word save, saved, or salvation, comes from the greek word "Sozo", which also includes health.

So my question is, can you be a dispensationalist and yet still believe that miracles of healing are for us today? What do the rest think?

I didnt know that aboit feldick.
At least you are questioning their backsliden beliefs.
Most of the pauline onlys are cessationists.
Their second bible "the green letters" has cessationism as a pillar of their doctrine.

How sad

 

[fredoheaven]

Seems there are quite a number here who believe in "rightfully dividing the word of truth". I am a "mid-dispensationalist", meaning that I believed the dispensation of grace began only with the salvation of the Apostle Paul in mid Acts, the mystery program, the church where Jews and Gentiles are equal, began only then at Acts chapter 9.

One thing I am still trying to decide is whether miracle signs of healing have indeed ceased at this age of the church. It appears that many dispensationalists, such as C R Stam, Les Feldick, and the owner of the blog doctrine.org, all share the view that there is no more miracles of healing for today.

Is that necessarily the case? I am in a church where apparently, there are people who testify about miracles of healing. We were also taught that, in Paul's epistles, the word save, saved, or salvation, comes from the greek word "Sozo", which also includes health.

So my question is, can you be a dispensationalist and yet still believe that miracles of healing are for us today? What do the rest think?

Miraculous healing still today by God.
Miraculous healing as done by the Apostles are no longer today.

 

[Absolutely]

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I'd be curious to know what those miracles were.

I have a pentecostal friend who is adamant he's seen many 'amazing' miracles as well, but I remain very skeptical. I went to one of his church meetings one time and they had their 'healing' moment and the leader was asking for anyone to come forward. Saying 'i feel there is someone here with a bad leg, ..or maybe a thigh, ..anyone?' almost pleading for a volunteer to front up and 'be healed'. I don't remember if he got anyone for that, but I think there was one or two complaining of the usual 'headache' or 'bad back'. And of course we've all seen those television ministries with their healing line up, again bad backs and headaches abound and afterward they seem to 'feel better'; but it all seems a bit of a crock to me. Sometimes I think the leaders genuinely believe they are helping, and are themselves partially being duped by 'helpful' congregation, and sometimes i think the leaders are straight out charlatans and taking advantage of people's desperation. In all, I have never seen anything convincing.

I also have a number of friends who grew up in pentecostal churches and who had genuine health problems (including cancer, deafness, and other chronic diseases) and have been to countless 'healing' sessions, and praying and believing as hard as they can, but to no avail. The leaders have been angry at them for making them look bad (in essence pressuring them to claim success), and they have been accused of 'not having enough faith' - typically being quoted James 5.14-15 which says 'is anyone of you sick? he should call the elders of the church to pray over him .. and the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well'. But a careful read you can see it is the faith of the elder making the prayer, not the faith of the sick person. And it says it WILL heal them. I don't see this certainty today at all. Today is much like the later epistles, where we see recovery rather than instant change.

And it is these very experiences (as well as discovering other inconsistencies) which started my friends on the dispensational path (and they have never looked back).

Now, I can never say for certain whether what we have today are genuine miracles or not (I don't doubt miracles can occur at any time throughout history), but sticking to the bible there are clear differences between before/after end-Acts. So I remain stubbornly skeptical.

I saw an article some years back on someone who did some follow up on supposed miracle cures, and these were only the short list that the ministries selected as their top picks. The investigator followed up with each of them (there was around 10 or so, from memory), and the result was NONE of them were genuinely healed. One who was 'healed' from cancer died within a year or two, others who had some other ailments continued to need their medication, and so on. In the end, it seems they probably just went along with it because of the pressure, and maybe they even felt pretty pumped at the time, but all up they would have left disappointed.

I feel terrible that I'm so cynical about it, but to me I'm just not convinced. And because I believe it is not scriptural, I will take some convincing. I want to see just one that I can say 'well, that one's not faking it'.

We need a starting place.
As is needing a savior is man's starting place in salvation,so it is with healing.
If you doubt at your starting place , most likely you wont see purpose or need.
IOW, if i feel in do not need saving,or peace,or enen inspiration to follow the king,why would i make any steps that way.
Likewise,with healing,i need to be clear if it is Gods will,and if it is, and he has us as his extended body,

My view.....The Beast, false prophet and others will be able to work ALL signs, miracles and LYING WONDERS.....to the extent that even some of the elect will come close to BELIEVING them to be from GOD......GOD does not sow confusion....the miracles were for the LOST that they might SEE and believe....if we have those who are of the devil working ALL signs, miracles and LYING wonders to the extent that even the very elect will almost believe it HOW will it help the lost......

SO.....IF we have biblical miracles and false miracles being performed at the same time, how can one tell the difference? AND who gets the glory............?

And like @Blain said above.....he has prayed and prayed and prayed....why has he not been healed? He seem faithful enough........

90% of healing in the nt does not involve prayer.
Yet in modern times,that has become the sole method.
I'm Not saying don't pray for healing,I'm saying it will work sometimes,and then the other methods are skipped.
But even worse faith becomes a bad guy to be avoided at all costs.

So,it is no wonder scarecly few are healed

 

[Absolutely]

Miraculous healing still today by God.
Miraculous healing as done by the Apostles are no longer today.

Nullifying the scriptures.
Good luck sir.

Most of the healing verses are outside the pauline letters.

 

[Absolutely]

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I'd be curious to know what those miracles were.

I have a pentecostal friend who is adamant he's seen many 'amazing' miracles as well, but I remain very skeptical. I went to one of his church meetings one time and they had their 'healing' moment and the leader was asking for anyone to come forward. Saying 'i feel there is someone here with a bad leg, ..or maybe a thigh, ..anyone?' almost pleading for a volunteer to front up and 'be healed'. I don't remember if he got anyone for that, but I think there was one or two complaining of the usual 'headache' or 'bad back'. And of course we've all seen those television ministries with their healing line up, again bad backs and headaches abound and afterward they seem to 'feel better'; but it all seems a bit of a crock to me. Sometimes I think the leaders genuinely believe they are helping, and are themselves partially being duped by 'helpful' congregation, and sometimes i think the leaders are straight out charlatans and taking advantage of people's desperation. In all, I have never seen anything convincing.

I also have a number of friends who grew up in pentecostal churches and who had genuine health problems (including cancer, deafness, and other chronic diseases) and have been to countless 'healing' sessions, and praying and believing as hard as they can, but to no avail. The leaders have been angry at them for making them look bad (in essence pressuring them to claim success), and they have been accused of 'not having enough faith' - typically being quoted James 5.14-15 which says 'is anyone of you sick? he should call the elders of the church to pray over him .. and the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well'. But a careful read you can see it is the faith of the elder making the prayer, not the faith of the sick person. And it says it WILL heal them. I don't see this certainty today at all. Today is much like the later epistles, where we see recovery rather than instant change.

And it is these very experiences (as well as discovering other inconsistencies) which started my friends on the dispensational path (and they have never looked back).

Now, I can never say for certain whether what we have today are genuine miracles or not (I don't doubt miracles can occur at any time throughout history), but sticking to the bible there are clear differences between before/after end-Acts. So I remain stubbornly skeptical.

I saw an article some years back on someone who did some follow up on supposed miracle cures, and these were only the short list that the ministries selected as their top picks. The investigator followed up with each of them (there was around 10 or so, from memory), and the result was NONE of them were genuinely healed. One who was 'healed' from cancer died within a year or two, others who had some other ailments continued to need their medication, and so on. In the end, it seems they probably just went along with it because of the pressure, and maybe they even felt pretty pumped at the time, but all up they would have left disappointed.

I feel terrible that I'm so cynical about it, but to me I'm just not convinced. And because I believe it is not scriptural, I will take some convincing. I want to see just one that I can say 'well, that one's not faking it'.

What is not scriptural? The words of knowledge? Or healing like the apostles saw?

 

[Absolutely]

Certainly not. I have received all sorts of miracles in my life, healing included. Medical professionals and their pills get waaayyyy to much credit these days.

A thousand amens to that.
It is said "God will pass over a thousand men to get to the man of faith"

 

[Absolutely]

Let me ask you, when the Apostles and Prophets of old spoke, "Thus saith the Lord" their words were revelatory, true and as good as Scripture. What so called 'prophets' or 'apostles' today speak inspired Scripture where the Church is bound to obey? Actually those phony NAR prophets would have been stoned back in the old testament times giving their false prophecy over Todd Bentley where within a month he left his wife for the Church secretary. Those are 100% phonies and give Christians a bad name.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14 NKJV
[13] For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. [14] And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

I disagree with the baby<> bathwater thingy.
Westborough,thankfully does not represent baptist as a whole.
Bently is a disgrace imo.
But to frame those with a pure heart as being like bently???
Really?

 

[oyster67]

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I'd be curious to know what those miracles were.

God bless you brother. Perhaps I should first say that I talk to God about everything, not just the 'big' things.

When I get sick and feel like I might go to sleep and not get up in the morning. I have peace and assurance that either way is ok. I know my body is probably not going to suddenly begin to get younger. It is for this reason that I consider good days as "little" miracles in themselves. They might seem little to many, but not to me.

Luke 17
17:15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
17:16 And fell down on [his] face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where [are] the nine?
17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

 

[Guojing]

Well the message was supposed to be given to the Jews first then the gentiles.. So if you are talking about when salvation first came to the gentiles then that is different to the day of Pentecost.. That was when Peter was given the dream about consuming unclean animals and was told by God not to call unclean what He had made clean.. Peter when to that home of the gentile family of Cornelius and preached to them and they received the Holy Spirit.. So at the moment the first gentile received the baptism of the Holy Spirit the age of grace had arrived for the gentiles..

It has been a while since i have read the account so i just looked it up again to make sure i got it right: So this is when salvation first came to the gentiles..

I agree with you, that is why I am a mid Acts dispensationalist, are you one too? I believe the new dispensation of Grace for the Gentile church began after Stephen was stoned.

Although the new Covenant of Grace technically began after Jesus shed his blood at Calvary, God gave the Jews a second chance to collectively accept Jesus after Jesus said on the cross "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

But once they stoned Stephen, who was full of the Holy Spirit, they have blasphemed against the HS and God put them aside to usher in the new dispensation of Grace for the Gentiles, we benefited tremendously due to the Jews rejecting their Gospel of the Kingdom.

Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

 

[preston39]

Two things.....

a. Was Grace extended to David when he should have been put to death under the law for murder and adultery?

b. The bible is clear that GRACE came long before the 50th day......

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

....."should have been put to death"...says who?

I would never try second guessing G-d.

 

[Adstar]

I agree with you, that is why I am a mid Acts dispensationalist, are you one too? I believe the new dispensation of Grace for the Gentile church began after Stephen was stoned.

Although the new Covenant of Grace technically began after Jesus shed his blood at Calvary, God gave the Jews a second chance to collectively accept Jesus after Jesus said on the cross "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

But once they stoned Stephen, who was full of the Holy Spirit, they have blasphemed against the HS and God put them aside to usher in the new dispensation of Grace for the Gentiles, we benefited tremendously due to the Jews rejecting their Gospel of the Kingdom.

Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Well the Jews did not stumble in full... On the day of Pentecost 3000 of them repented of their act of crucifying Jesus and became Christians... And down through out the centuries Jews from time to time have become followers of the Messiah Jesus... So not all the Jews fell.. Most did sadly.. But not all..

Acts 2: KJV
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. {37} ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? {38} Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. {39} For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. {40} And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. {41} ¶ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

Obviously more then a few of these men took part in the crucifixion of Jesus.. The will of Jesus came true.. when He said forgive them for they do not know what they do..

 

[Guojing]

Well the Jews did not stumble in full... On the day of Pentecost 3000 of them repented of their act of crucifying Jesus and became Christians... And down through out the centuries Jews from time to time have become followers of the Messiah Jesus... So not all the Jews fell.. Most did sadly.. But not all..

Acts 2: KJV
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. {37} ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? {38} Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. {39} For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. {40} And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. {41} ¶ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

Obviously more then a few of these men took part in the crucifixion of Jesus.. The will of Jesus came true.. when He said forgive them for they do not know what they do..

Yes, Paul mentioned the remnant of the Jews who accepted him as their promised Messiah (Romans 11:5-7). Now, we call them the Messianic Jews. They will have the privilege of being raptured, just like the rest of us in the church, before the Tribulation.

 

[Adstar]

Yes, Paul mentioned the remnant of the Jews who accepted him as their promised Messiah (Romans 11:5-7). Now, we call them the Messianic Jews. They will have the privilege of being raptured, just like the rest of us in the church, before the Tribulation.

Well i don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture... But that is another topic in another thread..

 

[Guojing]

Well i don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture... But that is another topic in another thread..

Oh, then I can see you are not basically not much of a dispensationalist then. But that's alright, we will still see each other in Heaven